WW in A. NC or not NC? Unsure. LImbo. (4th thread)

[25yearsmlc]

Jim

I read your whole post above. It's more of the same I'm afraid. And it's so very wordy which, tbh, just dilutes your message.

More words tend to lessen the impact of the content. not sure if that's how you speak to your wife but I had to read one of your paragraphs 3 times, to glean where you were going with it. Tell your wife what you need/want without so much qualifying explanation.

She either gets it. Or she doesn't care that much to get it. Seriously.

As LH says, your best chance of a lasting restored m, is by separating. It's clear to me that what you are doing now is not working. Period. I think it's half a$$ and she wants to avoid the kids knowing

and your present course of action will leave you in the "Pick me!" dance the rest of your life.



The best most succinct summary of what is really happening in your m which you do not want to face partly b/c you blame yourself for the m you had before the A,

is below.

Jim,

I'll be a little more blunt because you seem to dance around everything.

Your wife is in an A with POS loser OM.

You have two options:

1. Keep spying on her and getting confirmation and then try to rationalize what your confirming is not true. This will keep you in a painful limbo for a very long time.

2. Act on your boundary and politely ask her to leave the house and see if she values marriage, family, and security.

One makes you look very weak and the other makes you look strong.

IMO you have a better chance to reconcile if you initiate separation.

[Tobias]

Reading what happened with your W having some drinks I can recognize myself. But I think you went about it a bit harsh. As someone who sometimes goes and grabs drinks with coworkers it is hard to figure out details (sometimes it JUST gets decided) and you cannot really keep your spouse informed...or you want to text/call and someone says 'let's go'. And knowing when it ends...what seems at one point to die down can go on for a while. The texts I read from your W to me come across as someone who is trying to keep you informed. Does that mean she wants to disrespect you? Doesn't care to hang out with you? Is wanting time to talk to OM? etc...all maybe.

Now in my sitch, NC hasn't been achieved but my W felt her privacy and space was not respected and it kept her switching between warm and cold interactions with me. Our WW need to feel they can come back. Now the MR won't work with OM involved. But if they feel that they have to justify every little thing they do they might decide that they feel too guilty, too embarrassed or too controlled. Obviously, it is up to you how much leeway you would like to give her but if you want her back she would need to feel safe. In my case, I want my W and I want to see if we both can change our MR to make us both happy. Does OM fit into this? I don't see that work, not even as a friend. But I can insist or I can decide that since she keeps saying she is scared of me that maybe she needs more time. When I stopped caring so much or insisting she must be plotting to sleep with him, her whole behavior changed (it didn't hurt that I also validated her points that despite my intentions...I did engage in abusive behavior). She seems to feel a little safer.

NOW when both of you commit to working on this then maybe that can change and she will have to justify. And I think it was a good sign your W showed her phone. Two options: a) she is telling the truth OR b) she had one of those destroying apps and knew you would ask.

Does it matter at this point? If she is telling the truth she might feel exhausted that everything that doesn't go according to plan gets criticized. If she is lying...then okay how will you proof that. Until she recommits or actively changes her behavior like for instance asking if you want to go back to MC. When you told her you had no desire to continue that how did she react? Besides maybe she is using that app to talk to friends about feeling so guilty and trying to get advice. Am I delusional? Maybe. But what is it you want? What is it you need?

Again. Maybe I am approaching this differently than some others on here but clearly both our WW were missing something in our respective MR. Unless those conditions change they may have done something bad but they need a reason to want to come back. When they do, it is OUR turn to ask for things. DR has a whole chapter on it which if you google other resources is a pretty common approach. But neither my W nor your W has said they want to make the MR work (or did I miss that?). Should we be a doormat? Nope. Should we be confrontational beyond reason? Absolutely not.

The reason why I ask for her reaction is that in my case when I was ready to break off MC she pleaded we come back and our session a few days later went really well (W acknowledged there that initially she expected one or two sessions to be enough for her to know what she wants). She asked for IC and her session is tomorrow. Our mutual interactions have changed. I don't even know how much contact she has with OM through text but it definitely reduced because she already was talking to a lot of people but now is less and less on her phone and has been more interacting with me and has done so with much more warmth. I don't think we are on the road to recovery but we definitely are looking at going on a road trip and deciding what needs to be packed so the trip is fun and fulfilling and we might decide that one of us is just hitchhiking along to the next city. This is my gut feeling but when I read your discussion I don't see much coming from her other than a genuine attempt to let you know the plans might change. So to continue my dumb analogy she is thinking as to what to do.

My approach may be wrong but if I saw those texts I would validate that perhaps plans might change so maybe could have said: oh that sounds like fun, perhaps it is better to reschedule for another day? But in the past I did engage in sighing and being upset and feeling she disrespected me for letting plans change.

[hoosjim]

Real WTF weekend.

So i go to a college fraternity reunion friday night out of town to reconnect with some old friends, while W heads up to her family's place with kids for family reunion. Our last talk just before I left had involved Thursday night again, where I was sure to tell her how much it meant for me to open her phone to me, and also we talk about stuff in general, where I again tell her "maybe we just need some time apart", which seems to surprise her.

On drive down, and I can't make this stuff up, my best bud texts me to ask "what OM'S last name is". I tell him and ask "why", to which he basically responds "nothing, never mind". My response is "you absolutely can NOT _______ text me that and then not say why." (As a reminder, this friend is the currently separated H from my W's own bff who is herself a WW and who also is acquainted with and been sometime facilitator of my W's A, at least tacitly and probably at times actively.) My friend then says he found a "mistakenly returned" piece of mail addressed to someone with that first name but then won't tell me more by text. In person, when I arrive, he won't spill any details, implying that it WAS from my W, addressed to OM, with return address his OWN W's house where he found it because his "radar was up." (His radar was up because his WW had just told him last week the A she had been having with ANOTHER of our "friends" was not over as she had previously told him but had been restarted BY HER a couple weeks back. He says that my W is his friend, too, and that he can't "take sides", that he has duty of loyalty to his own W (he's kind of gone off deep end a bit) and wont do anything to "hurt her", though does imply to me that this piece of mail indicared I was "in better shape than I thought". Just really bizarre all around. Not sure if he shared his discovery with his own WW or not (who undoubtedly had told MY wife that she could use their address as a return) but I wouldn't doubt it. I knew of this letter from about three,weeks back, but didn't know content (assumed maybe birthday card to OM or possibly break up letter). I have good reason to believe my F found it in trash, which would mean my W didn't have bff try to redeliver after initial delivery attempt failed. Why was MY friend going through trash? Becsuse, as I also find out upon arrival, HIS WW had just been outed on FB as continuing to carry on an A with ANOTHER friend of ours that she had told him was over months ago. Of course he instantly "forgave" both her AND our other friend, wants to conine to we or on his own MR, and can't wait to see other friend afain, not to kick his a$$, but to "reconnect" etc. Like I said, very weird WTF stuff. And this is the guy who introduced me to the DB books.

So, Saturday afterblnoon, I drive back up for W's family reunion. When I get there, she is all dolled up, comes up to me and puts her arms around me and kisses me on neck (more affection than she has shown me at any time since BD). For rest of weekend, whether in presence of her family or not, she is fun, engaging, warm, even flirty. Touches me frequently, does not shrink away when I do so to her, and when I come to bed Saturday night she has arranged herself in such a way that I can't get in bed without spooning or cuddling in some fashion with her. So, I do, put my arms around her and whisper "are you okay with this?" (Because previously she most certainly has NOT been and has told me so.) She responds with a soft "mmmm hmmmm". We don't take it any farther than that, and I don't get signals that she wants to, though the warmer demeanor continues throughout Sunday. I have no idea what sparked it, although we have been spending more fun, connected time together past two to three weeks and I know she says she is trying to just "live in each moment".

She had been being pretty stalwart for months, now, that she did not want to lead me on and was holding back even more,than prolly reasonable in that regard as a result. I did not sense anything manipulative or duplicitous in her, and we did not talk about that or about any MR stuff. I hope to do so when she gets home today (she and S18 stayed to help out her parents for an extra day). Very strange and unexpected weekend. Sorry if I rambled.

[hoosjim]

Also, for those of you worrying that I am not GALing enough, for the Seco d straight such event with Ws family, pretty much everyone remarked to her or to me how profoundly changed a person I was, how well I seemed to be doing and how fun I was to be around. For my part, I can say it's a great deal about faith and the associated outlook... I myself am living much more "in" the moment, enjoying people and places and events, rather than just trying to "get through" them, as I used. Much happier way to live.

[AnotherStander]

Jim, your friend is in some super deep poop there, I hope you're trying to offer some DBing advice to him because he is headed for disaster. I can't believe he is the one that suggested DB to you but then is engaging in that kind of "turn the other cheek" behavior to his wife's shenanigans.

Very nice that your W warmed up some. Now prepare yourself, because more than likely she'll decide it was "too much" and give you the ice princess routine for a while. Stay off her roller coaster and stick to your plan.

[Coconut]

Everything going on is stressful for her too, every now and then she wants a break from the stress also, and she likely decided to use the weekend away with family to take a break from everything and just pretend everything's ok.

The thing is, she knows you will allow her to do that with you whenever she wants, so I think she took advantage of that to pretend everything was great, which put you in a better mood, thus making it a stress free weekend.

Like AS stated, be prepared for the ice princess to reappear.

[hoosjim]

Very nice that your W warmed up some. Now prepare yourself, because more than likely she'll decide it was "too much" and give you the ice princess routine for a while. Stay off her roller coaster and stick to your plan.

That would not at all surprise me and, TBH, I think I saw a bit of that starting last night, but we shall see. Not that that would be at all out of character for her even if she WERE "moving back towards me"-- that little dance went on between us for a good part of the first fifteen months we knew each other (she has some self-image and guilt and possibly even commitment issues and always has).

At any rate, I think I am fully prepared for that. While weekend was very nice, I didn't let myself get carried away. Spent plenty of time "away" from her talking to the numerous other members of her family who I like and enjoy spending time with (which is actually pretty much all of them) which had the added benefit (I think it was a benefit at least) of everyone telling her how much fun it was talking to me, how fit I am looking these days, etc etc.

My feelings and emotions about are, I think, pretty grounded-- that it was nice but I dont "expect" anything to come of it and I didn't try to push things with her at all. My body OTOH wanted her desperately which she probably doesn't need to know right now. If she had come on to me strong (which she didn't, thankfully) don't know how I would have responded-- she can be very "convincing." If she continues to "warm up" to me once back home perhaps I will allow her back in a little more... but we have work to do. If we talk about it, which I more than half expect her to try to do at some point, my take will be this: "Look, it was a nice weekend, I enjoyed it and you are doing some very nice things that I really appreciate and value to show me I can trust you and let you back in but... it's still early. I feel like we have a lot of work to do and I don't even know how committed you are to working on things with us long-term." If she mentions bed and how that felt I may even throw in a "look, I am very attracted to you physically, but don't know if that's a place I'm willing to go right now until we get our relationship back on track or at least unless and until I know we are both committed to working on the MR... assuming that's what you want."

I also plan to keep alive the idea that "maybe we need some time apart" because... maybe we do. Though I am not nearly as hard-over rabid about it as some on this site seem to be. I think it's an option, not necessarily a necessity. And quite possibly not even desirable in our case. A lot of weird nuances WRT both my W and WRT our MR/sitch

[hoosjim]

Jim, your friend is in some super deep poop there, I hope you're trying to offer some DBing advice to him because he is headed for disaster. I can't believe he is the one that suggested DB to you but then is engaging in that kind of "turn the other cheek" behavior to his wife's shenanigans.

Yeah, I know. It [censored]. Pray for the guy every day but not sure what more I can do. He has very stubborn thinking patterns. Once he gets something in his head he doesn't change course easily. He for instance, was one of my major inspirations for being so sanguine at the start of my own W's affair-- "You need to be loving towards her all the time" and not suspcious, "dont try to control her... let her go out with her friends" (mainly his own WW). He was also a constant "naysayer" to the my belief of my W having an A, due at least in part to his own WW (who is my own W's bff, and whom he trusts unreservedly) constantly telling him "they are just friends" and the like. Because of course they "share everything" including everything about me and my W, though come to find out it was only HIM sharing everything about ME and NOT the other way around (i.e. his W was DEFINITELY keeping secret the profundity of the A my own W was having.) He also is of the opinion that only sexual intercourse constitutes an affair, that everything else is basically not that objectionable, and that even intercourse is okay "if i know eventually I would forgive her and take her back anyway." At any rate, he like to never bought into the idea that my W was having an A, even when I told him I had proof (which I did NOT share with him due to leakage fears to his wife) and likely only when he found the discarded "return mail" item over the weekend. Maddening.

At any rate, that's the kind of rigid thinking I am dealing with here. He is fully convinced that God is going to wave his magic wand and reconcile him and his wife. As a man of faith myself, I of course believe that God could do this very thing... if He wanted to. Of course I also understand that most often, in fact overwhelmingly often, God has work for US to do before the miracle happens. He ain't likely going to do squat for you if you do nothing... Say, for example, enabling and appeasing your W to have A after A while staying friends with both her and her APs. Now... I don't know what messages or inspiration he is getting from his faith and from God... Maybe in his case that is ultimately going to work out for him doing things that way... but it SURE as hell doesn't look like that right now. But he will hear NOTHING about it. Basically told me this weekend he doesn't want to discuss his MR sitch with me any longer nor in fact does he want to discuss mine as it is too painful and our philosophies are "too different". And also that he will not entertain any ill words about his W whom he places just below God but above friends in his hierarchy of loyalty/responsibility.

Also, since he shares EVERYTHING with his own currently separated W (who is my own W's bff), it is "too hard and painful and confusing" for him to have confidential talks with me about my own MR but especially about HIS MR. IOW, if I were to go to him saying "you need to step back, detach, etc if you really want to get her back" or anything to that effect, it will almost certainly get back to his W, who will undoubtedly tell my W, who will a) know that I am encouraging my friend to change his ways and his relationship with his W (and my W is convinced that our friends' separation and pending divorce is working "Great" and both are "happier than they have ever been" though she misses that their kids are miserable) and probably hate me for that AND b) possibly come to understand that I am DB-ing or something like that on my own side and trying to "manipulate" her back into a MR with me. So... yeah. Would love to help him but not really sure how to do that.

Now, his odd stance WRT his wife and PARTICULARLY WRT his friend (who was a fraternity brother to all who were gathered this weekend at my reunion) was a hot topic of conversation. Opinions varied on the culpability and dislike-worthiness of his W due to fact that a) he has pretty much told her he is okay with her exploring her sexuality and doing whatever she wants and b) even "releasing her from her vows" and even forgiving her for the A after he intially found out about it last fall (though he didn't know it had been rekindled) and that c) He claims to be and to all appearances seems to be completely content and happy. (THough he DOES allow that while he is happy he would be MORE happy if he could get back together with his W and that currently she is still the woman he would most want to spend the rest of his life with.) There was less conflicted opinion about our fraternity brother (the current AP to my friends W) who KNOWS my friend still wants to work on his MR and reconcile with his wife, had originally started the A with my friend's W WHILE they were still together and not even decided to separate, was huge dick to my friend when my friend confronted him about the A, is himself married to someone that most of us consider a friend, and is just somewhat of an a$$ even as he would probably have previously been considered a friend by most. Opinion in that vein is pretty much that he (frat brother AP) should at least be shunned and cut of our good friend's life and, quite possibly, beaten within an inch of his sorry life. This was no casual friendship between these two... they were best friends, at least in my own friend's mind. But... my friend now "cant wait to try to reconnect with this guy" even as he "still wants to work on his MR" and "doesn't want an open marriage." AM I TAKING CRAZY PILLS?!?!? I love this guy like a brother, but just don't know how to help him. Maybe one of my other friends can talk sense to him, but I think one or two already tried to no avail.

I guess if he's happy...

[AnotherStander]

He also is of the opinion that only sexual intercourse constitutes an affair, that everything else is basically not that objectionable, and that even intercourse is okay "if i know eventually I would forgive her and take her back anyway."

He needs to go read that ... web site, LOL!

He is fully convinced that God is going to wave his magic wand and reconcile him and his wife. As a man of faith myself, I of course believe that God could do this very thing... if He wanted to. Of course I also understand that most often, in fact overwhelmingly often, God has work for US to do before the miracle happens. He ain't likely going to do squat for you if you do nothing...

Or even if you do something. We can't pray our way out of BD. Believe me, if that were possible I would be a shining example of it, because I prayed 10 times or more a day and they were genuine, heartfelt prayers. Pray if it makes you feel better, but don't lean on it like a crutch. You've got to do the work yourself.

Basically told me this weekend he doesn't want to discuss his MR sitch with me any longer nor in fact does he want to discuss mine as it is too painful and our philosophies are "too different". And also that he will not entertain any ill words about his W whom he places just below God but above friends in his hierarchy of loyalty/responsibility.

Man every time I read anything about him "chump" just jumps straight to the front of my brain I think you need a new friend to talk your sitch over with, because he clearly is not on the same page.

if I were to go to him saying "you need to step back, detach, etc if you really want to get her back" or anything to that effect, it will almost certainly get back to his W, who will undoubtedly tell my W

That's reason enough to quit talking to him. You need to confide in a person or people who have no ties to your W, it needs to be people you can say anything to without fear of it ever getting back to your W. I'm not saying not to ever talk with him, but don't share ANYTHING with him about your W or your sitch anymore.

[hoosjim]

Oh, and for comic relief--- something I left out above and the final bizarre twist from a weekend full of really bizarre and unanticipated events: I received a text... FROM THE OM!!

Okay, so he didn't text me intentionally, from the looks of it he must have sent out the message to his entire phone contact list, about 45 people. I guess he just never took me off of his contact list, LOL. XD

At any rate, I was in a limited cellular coverage area when it came in, and it was a "multimedia message", which means it had to download, so it took about 15 minutes from the time I first heard the warning chirp that i had a new message. I recognize the number, of course, so for 15 minutes I'm sitting there wondering "what is this M-Fer sending me a message for?" Challenge me to a fight? Throw in the towel on my wife? Ask me for her hand in marriage? Im on the edge of my seat! I almost, ALMOST texted W to ask "why the hell is OM sending me a text right now" but I didn't (and I'm glad). Ended up being something he wanted to text out about his son who is on our High School's football team and had an event last weekend. DANGIT i thought it was really going to be something catalytic, but no dice. At least I got his full phone contact list (one of which numbers is, I assume, my W's former "cheater phone") out of the deal if i ever decide I want to scorch him in some way...

Just weird, weird, weird weekend. Some good stuff there but... Weird.





And this is my last post about this because this is a huge distraction from my own sitch at some point, but...

Sad, sad sad thing is that in many respects dude is acting like a DB-ing champ! He is GAL-ing and 180-ing like crazy!!! I haven't seen or heard of anyone making the kinds of changes and self-improvements and such that he is making... his faith being a HUGE one (one of the most avowed atheists I have ever known prior to his recent conversion-- and the conversion is absolutely 100% genuine), as well as his warmth and commitment to the relationships in his life... But... He has just so completely let his WW (apparently) run completely wild while remaining full committed to her and available to her pretty much whenever she wants that I don't know if he will ever "get her back."

OF course, with God, all things are possible, but... I am not sure my bud is reading the divine tea leaves right as to what he's supposed to be doing. Could be wrong-- and he's taking a three week sabbatical to travel across country following one of his favorite band on tour, so maybe his W will start missing him during that time and things will turn for him... but... anyway. Enough. Makes me sad. Was a time the four of us were real tight... did a lot of fun things together.