WW in A. NC or not NC? Unsure. LImbo. (4th thread)

[Coconut]

Hoosjim, I'd like to recommend you read my sitch (click on my name, click view posts and go to the first page)...

My sitch played out a lot like yours (WW almost immediately said she wanted to work on M, but never DID anything to do so, but she stuck around, I kept trying, wanting to believe her, but her heart wasn't in it, resumed talking to OM).

You'll see how it played out for me and very good suggestions I got from others (including Sandi2)... I think it may help you to read through, it's a lot, but very similar to your sitch..

I just want to say, if I had to do it over again, I would of moved out immediately and waited at least 6 months before any contact... I truly believed that would have resulted in true reconciliation for me... Instead, I did what your doing and MR experienced a slow death.

[hoosjim]

(I could shoot holes in your explanation surrounding the July 4th get away....but I won't right now). She has made no attempts to give a verbal recommitment, and frankly, I haven't seen much effort. She plays this cat & mouse game, instead of being upfront. To me, it looks as if she is throwing crumbs to keep you hooked.

Sandi, maybe I am setting myself up for unproductive spinning here, but... I really feel I need to keep myself grounded and NOT get ahead of myself, and I think part of that is keeping a healthy skepticism of my wife's "apparent" change of heart WRT the OM/A. So, please, shoot away... I really want to know if there are things I should be considering and I most definitely do NOT want to let her back in too early. After reading Coconut's story, I see some disturbing similarities, particularly the W making some efforts or appearing to make some efforts to end the A and then getting angry when confronted by H that the steps taken were not enough. Somewhat similar to my W getting upset that i was upset with HER for wanting to go have lunch with bff after she had "been doing all the things she was supposed to be doing"... and I note here, as was the case with coconuts sitch, there has still been no volunteering of unrestricted access to her phone, which remains on fingerprint lockdown, even as she has let me handle it and look things up on it jointly in her presence. And such access has been suggested to her previously, once by me and once (or twice) by MC. OTOH, she has labeled herself a "cheater", says she "doesn't want to be that" and seemed genuinely shaken up by the concept I raised at counselling that I wouldn't want to be her friend and that I wouldn't want to lie to everyone to cover up her A with OM if she left me and ended up with him. She also asked ME about the "Torn Asunder" workbook/program that the MC had suggested would be a good exercise for us when we are ready and then went and got and started reading it. We haven't circled back with each other on that one but the early chapters are VERY informative and VERY on point about the addictiveness of affairs, the revisionist thinking that goes along with them, and the resentment/anger/rebellion that leads up to them. At any rate, I have reason to believe she just MAY be coming around. That, and she is so so so so so so reluctant to admit fault in ANYTHING or that she has done something wrong-- particularly something BIG-- and it has always been this way with her, that if she actually DID come to me, put her hand in mind, break down in tears and say "I was so, so wrong to do what I did and I am so, so sorry and these are all of things I am going to do to work through it and try to earn back your trust", then I would mortgage my house and everything in it (including my kids) to place a bet on her doing just that... so strong is her already natural aversion (even affair and WW dynamics aside) to doing something like that. So, i am not sure i EVER expect such an explicit mea culpa from her, even as that would be ideal.

I also understand... as does she, I believe, that she has "work to do." I had of course suggested during our last talk that "maybe we needed some time apart"... which suggestion seemed to shake her up a bit. She said she was thinking maybe she just needed like a weekend faith-based or the like getaway, but that she knew she had problems in her head. MC would LOVE to get her in for more IC, but her (W's) trust for the MC is not as high as mine right now, and I think she fears being labeled/persecute/judged/etc. for what she has done, even though that is not this MC's M.O.

I don't think you have to worry about me stopping posting-- I value the input here. My biggest issue is that I have two sort of competing paradigms I am wrestling with here, both of which, honestly, seem like they have merit. MC saying I need to pursue a bit, in measured fashion, while guaging my W's responses, and DB saying that I need to be more stand-offish. (Though, absent the affair dynamics, it seems upon reviewing the DR book and other materials that selective pursuit is countenanced there, as well.) What would be most helpful to know is a) is the affair TRULY over for now-- and very very hard for me to trust here as long as bff remains in picture AND b) is W truly interested in working through her own and then our issues, or is she just spoonfeeding me what she thinks i want to hear.

Best bet for me, obviously, is not to let MY life get too hung up on such things. Actually joined a basketball league with some other "old man" friends of mine... going to play tonight. Will probably completely undo my meticulous fitness routine with some sort of injury, lol...

[hoosjim]

Coconut-- just reading over your sitch, thanks for the suggestion. I have to say, you were a prolific poster in the early stages! Much better historian than I was. I do see similarities in yours and my situation. Here's a tip for our subsequent marriages, if there are ones-- DON'T marry a beautiful woman (Like you, I significantly "out-kicked my coverage" with my wife-- not like I'm a troll or anything but, well... comparatively speaking she's out of my league. We got together during a period in my life when I was crazy confident, perhaps almost to the point of arrogance and certainly to the point of not worrying about whether she was "out of my league"-- trying to get back to that, but without the arrogance. ) Anyway, I DO see some similarities. Some differences, too, though. some subtle, some not so. Trying to decide which ones if any are important. I am unquestionably, I think, in even a worse position than you from the get-go due to the length of the "neglect" period-- prolly close to 10 years in my case. Your description of your sitch makes it look like there was at least still some warmth/intimacy/etc even up until the point of the A. In my case, Pretty sure my W's feelings for me are dead, cremated, and scattered to the four winds, at least in the romantic sense. If we are to reconcile into any kind of intimate relationship, it's really going to be like I am dating/wooing someone all over again... except harder because there are the overlays from a) the affair and b) her resentment/hurt/anger over the pain I caused her.

Anyway, I am working on me as hard as I can, reading as much as I can about this kind of thing (still working through your story) and praying constantly... the latter of which is my greatest source of comfort and hope. Think I said this before, but, while my situation may look kind of hopeless, "God does hopeless pretty well."

[JRuss]

I'm divorced now, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think you need to drop that "out of my league" stuff. That vibe, and I guarantee you started putting it off at some point as your relationship matured, is a turn off for your wife. Think about it: on a basic level, if you outkicked your coverage, it must follow that she underkicked hers. Who wants to live with that as their reality, until death do you part? Not her. Not most people. Good thing it isn't true, right?

You say yourself that you got together during a period of your life when you were "crazy confident. Confidence is one of the only true aphrodisiacs, especially from the female-looking-for-a-mate perspective. There's a lot going on in your mind; lots of fear, uncertainty, anger, depression, etc.; trust me, I know. But make it your mission to quit thinking about anything other than getting that confidence back. How? Exactly how posters have been telling you: GAL, dropping the rope, focusing on you and kicking a$$ every day, all day. That confidence WILL come back. Your W may or may not. But she isn't coming back to being wooed by someone who accepts that she's out of his league, lacking in confidence, etc.

[hoosjim]

Good 2x4 JRuss, thanks.

You should know, though, that alot of that is tongue in cheek, self-deprecating humor, whatever. I have actually regained alot of if not most of my confidence. We took a psych battery as part of one of our MC sessions (which we may not be continuing for obvious reasons) and my "confidence" rated extremely high, like 90th percentile or something. Plus, I just feel it... I've been out more, meeting people, have noticed that people, including women, are interested in ME (which in itself can be an intoxicating and somewhat dangerous dynamic) and that alot of that absolutely has to do with self confidence, self assurance, and out-going-ness.

When I met my W, i was confident that there was no one out there who was "better" than me for her. Getting back to that point, now... and I damned fer suAnd, yes, how physically (and yes probably emotionally) sick must I have been to neglect a crazy, hot high-sex-drive wife for ten years? Pretty sick. Actually pretty much sure I was on my way out at one point. Thank the good Lord every day for seeing me through that. Now if I could just turn back the clock and 2x4 my former self in the head to engage and turn to my W rather than shutting her out... re know it about me versus the OM she was (hopefully it IS "was") seeing. She's noticed, too, commented several times on my self confidence and self-assurance, but... she's a WW. I could be Superman right now and it prolly wouldn't make a diff. Just gotta rest assured Im doing the best I can to be the best me, that WW's feelings can change, and that ulitmately if she prefers "not me", well, then... her loss.





And, yes, how physically (and yes probably emotionally) sick must I have been to neglect a crazy, hot high-sex-drive wife for ten years? Pretty sick. Actually pretty much sure I was on my way out at one point. Thank the good Lord every day for seeing me through that. Now if I could just turn back the clock and 2x4 my former self in the head to engage and turn to my W rather than shutting her out...

[AnotherStander]

Here's a tip for our subsequent marriages, if there are ones-- DON'T marry a beautiful woman (Like you, I significantly "out-kicked my coverage" with my wife-- not like I'm a troll or anything but, well... comparatively speaking she's out of my league.

Was she when you met though? Look, if you have a trim waistline, wear nice clothes, get regular haircuts, keep your nails clean and trimmed, carry an air of confidence then you are in the 10th percentile of all men. Maybe even the 5th. It is EASY to be in the top league of men. Just look around you, it is shocking how many men are walking around with huge bellies, disheveled hair, pale complexions, scruffy beards, t-shirts with holes in them, flip flops, etc. A lot of men GO TO WORK like that these days. It's unreal. You don't have to have Brad Pitt's face to be at the top of the class.

[Coconut]

I think it's funny you brought up the "out of my league" from my past, Sandi2 also mentioned that (what I used to say) in a comment she made to you. I didn't want to bring it up then, didn't want to hijack your thread, but I no longer feel that way, and didn't think that way before BD... She definitely has young genes, but there is so much more to a person than looks, I think I just dwelled on that because when you think of your woman with another man, I think her attractiveness is the first thing that enters our "man minds".

Sure she's pretty, but no one is out of my league as a whole person. Not saying that arrogantly, but I'm friendly, happy, appreciative of others, and most importantly, I'm content in my life. I don't know enough about her to compare where she stands on those things, but I know I'm a catch and I don't put her, or anyone else above me (anymore).

[hoosjim]

Very wise words, my friend.

[hoosjim]

Just look around you, it is shocking how many men are walking around with huge bellies, disheveled hair, pale complexions, scruffy beards, t-shirts with holes in them, flip flops, etc.

And THIS is the OM in my case!!! Except add in "almost no job, almost no money, likely a clinical alcoholic, and serial womanizer. And, oh, btw, not at all bright." AND SHE CHOOSES HIM! She could have pretty much ANY man in this town. Seriously. Shes good looking, smart, fun, loves sports, has a good professional life herself, etc etc. Except for being a cheater she's like the all-American girl. AND SHE CHOOSES THIS LOWLIFE. I have told my own bff (who is, strangely enough, the currently separated H to my wife's own bff-- we married best friends) that if I could nominate one guy for "Right Place at the Right Time Poster Child" and place all my money on the pick... it would be the OM in my case. Dude has literally NOTHING going for him but a good rap (and yes, he's fun, but in a drunken low-life sleezy kind of way) and that he happened to have a sucker for a friend (me) who told him most of his wife's vulnerabilities and then used that to find out the rest of them, opened a few doors for her like a "gentleman" and VOILA... in like Flynn.

Sorry. Rant over. I no longer feel any "threat" from this guy to my own sense of well-being, but the fact that I could have lost (and I suppose still might lose) my wife to this low life will forever remain a head-scratcher to me.

[AnotherStander]

Yeah one of the great mysteries of life is why WAS's always seem to "affair down". There's a theory that the affair partner is offering some kind of emotional support they're not getting in the M, and maybe that's it. I suspect a lot of serial OM's prey on married women and know just the right things to say to them, coming off as Mister Sensitive, but it's just a game to them so as soon as the marriage is in ruins they're on to the next mark.