WW in A. NC or not NC? Unsure. LImbo. (4th thread)

[pinn]

I'll tell you this.... things improved for me 100% once she moved out. Let me really let go and live my life without her on my mind constantly. Similar to ownit's story, the A died out. It let her see exactly what life was like without me. Sure I didn't see her for 8 months but this whole process takes an incredible amount of time. I think in house separation is way worse mentally on the BS compared to living separately.

[25yearsmlc]

agreed

I hear that some in house sep work, but I'm not sure how. I sure did not have that experience at all.

And most of the successful reconciliations I personally know of, all had physical separations involved. So I don't know why some folks think in house increases the chances of a restored m. It can work out, I"m sure. But does it increase the chance of a recon? I think not.

For one thing, I think it's much harder to show changes b/c on a day to day basis they are so incremental they are hard to notice.

I mean yes you can pretend to go out or dress nicely, but the WAS who lives there will see you come home, alone...OR they will be gone out all night with you at home and that is all they know...

Not to mention that it's harder for the LBSer to GAL (for real, I mean) or to detach with the WAS sort of living there.

And the chances of fights and backslides are so much higher when living under the same roof. I couldn't do it.

[pinn]

agreed
And most of the successful reconciliations I personally know of, all had physical separations involved. So I don't know why some folks think in house increases the chances of a restored m. It can work out, I"m sure. But does it increase the chance of a recon? I think not.

It is simple really... when the WS moves out, it is just another sign that things are progressing. We take this as a negative, as things are really over. As long as they are in the same house, there is a chance they change their mind right? The living separately is best mentality, is counter intuitive, but it is not really if you really really think about it. It is really difficult to grasp in the early days, almost impossible. Your point about the changes is spot on. Pretty much impossible to notice change on a day to day to basis (like physical changes are when you see someone everyday).

It is similar to how we think of MC I think. When things first happen, many peoples first thought is let's go to MC. It was mine, but not for long. MC is the death null if you go when one person is already out, it is pointless. It only helps if both people want it 100%. Something that is very difficult to grasp early.

So Hoos, my point is, that a physical separation isn't all bad. I know it seems like it is, but its not. Without it, my marriage was going to be 100% toast, I am convinced of that. Now, at least, I get to make a choice on our future.

[sandi2]

I hope this won't sound arrogant, but did you read my very last post of your previous thread? The references and responses you made were to older posts, (even the one that immediately followed my last one on page 11. So, I got the feeling our posts may have passed each other. Please check, since I spent the better part of my Saturday writing to you.....I just wanted to make sure you read it. .

So, a couple of quick things: first, I am eternally curious about your own situation.You talk about separation bing important and in house separation being doomed to failure, yet you yourself never left nor did your husband. How do you reconcile that?

You've asked about my stitch in the past, and I wrote a pretty lengthy respond, but I think something on your stitch had happened that had your attention, and maybe you missed it. I don't mind trying to answer any of your questions, but I just want you to read what I write.

To answer the question above, first let me ask in what content did I say S was important? Do you mean like being important to reconciling the M? No, if I said anything along those lines, it must have been to some individual's particular stitch. I don't think I said that as blanket statement regarding reconciliation. Here's the thing, Jim, don't confuse your boundary enforcement with thinking Sandi says S is important for all reconciliations. I think physical separation helps in many cases, but couples can certainly reconcile without ever separating.

A boundary is not a boundary at all, unless it has effective consequences. You decide what the boundary is......and you decide how to enforce it. Whatever you decided is the consequences for your boundary being dishonored......then I believe it is important to stick by it. If you see separation being the consequences of your boundary being disrespected, then stand behind it. That's what I say. There are other consequences, but if you told your WW you would separate if she did not end the A, then to go back on your word, would seriously jeopardize the future of the MR.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, or maybe you have misunderstood me (it's happened before). Occassionally, I see other posters take something I have said, put it in their own words (which is fine), but it comes out sounding as if I meant something else. It concerns me about newcomers misunderstanding, b/c there are people reading these posts that never join the board (in case you wonder why I go to lengths explaining myself).

Let me go on record as saying that separation is NOT always necessary in order to reconcile the MR! Are there some situations that would be better for the couple to physically separate for a while? Absolutely! I even think it would be more effective in cases that have a wayward spouse, rather some other things the LBS tries. As with most situations in life, the success is usually determined by how it is carried out.

My H and I did not S, that's correct. We did reconcile, that's correct, too. Are you asking why or what I base my views on about in-house vs physical S? Well, I don't recall ever mentioning the number of posts by my name, b/c that is not a point of conceit, nor does it make a statement about one's wisdom. I do admit, after reading your question, and thought how to respond.........I looked. So, considering I read more than I post, and that I have been here almost every single day for the past decade, studying similar situations to your stitch,.........you might say that is the bases for my views on in-house vs physical S. My views come from reading a decade of the painful experiences of others. If I observed a successful method, approach, solution, etc., I share it. If I see a board member making the same unsuccessful decision/move as I've seen in the past......I share my views of what I've observed.

BMC is actually encouraging us not to talk about the end of the relationship at all, right now, but instead to focus on what the relationship would look like if we were to reconcile. She thinks we are to negatively focused intend to constantly drift backwards into what we are going to do if and when we split. She is also a fan of disclosure of the A to the kids, even if we reconcile. The MC would very much like for us to get started on a program called Torn asunder which is meant to help couples recover from infidelity as well as from the hurts that led up to it in the marriage.

Well, at least I feel better about the MC.

She says that my wife is carrying around a lot of guilt,

About ?????

The end of the day though, she is adamant that there is no point in continuing with the counseling unless the affair is completely over, there is no contact, and, on some level, my wife is committed do participating in the counseling.

"She" being the MC?

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks, I did read your very comprehensive post (as I do all of your posts) and I really appreciated the thought you put into it. The effort and care and empathy that everyone here puts into their posts here never ceases to amaze and humble me. It's one of the things I am thankful for.

W and I talked extensively today. Honestly, I think she is maintaining NC. I put some surveillance back up to be sure but... I think she is. It's just her personality to not be excessively "mea culpa" about it, and it ALWAYS has been that way for her, even before she became a WW... VERY hard for to admit fault explicitly. She HAS been doing so here, just in a somewhat oblique and roundabout fashion. I pushed her pretty hard just before she got back when she wanted to have lunch with bff, and then again yesterday... and I think it was a mistake. Because she was already NC-ing, and I kind of believe her on this.

Having said all that, she is still NOT "all in" on the marriage or even on "working on" the marriage. And, for my part, I have told her that "ending the A is not enough for me, either... we have other issues." Alot of issues. We most definitely had a SSM, and there was a lot of pain and rejection arising out of that, especially since my W is a "sexual being". Amazing that she never went outside of the marriage before she did, and equally amazing that she did not sleep with OM (and yes, I am certain of this) although they did talk about it. At any rate, even assuming the A is over for now, not sure where "we go now." We may very well need to spend some time apart. She still does not have those romantic feelings for me, even as we still do connect very well intellectually and socially. We drove around for a bit this afternoon talking about the A and her beach trip and her commitment to not seeing OM, etc... ended up at restaurant where we had a bit and a couple of cocktails. Was nice. Really nice. Are we piecing? No. But I feel pretty good that Om, for now at least, may actually be out of the picture. I even feel a little better about bff... (hard to explain without writing a book, but I do.)

[sandi2]

I thought you had said previously that if your husband had threatened to "out" you that you would have divorced him. Am I mis-remembering that?

Sorry, I was trying to end my previous post, and I must have missed this question. No, my H never threatened to out me. I threatened him if her ever told my children, I would hate him till day the day I died. (I was grabbing for any control I could get). He did tell me that if I left, there would be no coming back......and we would not be buddies. That was not a threat, b/c he did not say it in anger, and I knew he meant every word.

The previous night was when he had confronted me for the second (and last) time. He did out me to my mother, without giving her the dirty details. When the sh't hit the fan, I had left to go to her house, and before I got there.....he had called her to let know I was coming, and told her about OM. She was so shocked she could not say anything! I was shocked at him, b/c I actually never thought he would have told her. However, I would have done the same thing.....had it been reversed.

Being the firstborn child, I was the pleaser in my family and wanted my parents to be proud of the D they raised. I never caused them problems growing up, and they had expressed many times that they were proud of me. They were not referring to accomplishments, necessarily, but to my character. Like my parents, I tried to live what I preached, so to speak. They were honorable people, and my H was an honorable man. And then I went and had an EA! Yes, I could write pages & pages of how life had been hard for my H and me, and how neglected by him I felt. But I learned from the LBS's on the board, the A was nobody's fault but my own. I could break down right now and cry a river of tears, it hurts so much to think what my betrayal cost, and how I treated my H.

As it turned out, my H did not have to say anything to our children, b/c they were finding out for themselves. One time, when I was having one of my special times on the computer with the OM, I forgot to turn off the monitor. My adult D (who had come by the house) had walked into the room to use the computer......and saw the monitor where OM and I had been messenging, so she started checking the history. However, she did not reveal what she knew right away. You see, I had planned to gently let my family know I was thinking about leaving my H, and then try to ease the OM in, so they would accept him......all the while, making my H out to be the bad guy. (Crazy, twisted, WW mindset). When my D told me she knew about OM......... that's when I knew I had hung myself.

Btw, one of the cracks in my knight's (OM) amor, was when my D was on our computer he thought it was me. He started messaging. She told him it wasn't me and that she was Sandi's D. The day she busted me, she told me about the incident. So, I asked him about it, (yes, I was testing him), and he lied. He said he had more sense than to do something like that and didn't know why my D would say such a thing. However, a few other cracks were beginning to show, and everything was about to fall. OM didn't seem bothered that my D had discovered and actually read a ton of our messages. I won't go into the various things I began seeing in OM (with the guidance from one of my DB mentors).

Some of the time frames about those events, get a little fuzzy....(and as time marches on, it gets even fuzzier). The mental/emotional state I was in at that time may be why I can't remember the dates or span of time better. There were also things going on with my health and the prescriptions. Don't know the extent it played in remembering time details. It did not all happen in the same day, but if felt like these things started falling like a house of cards. The timing and how everything fell was incredible, and I had nobody to blame but myself.

Although my family loved me, showed amazing grace, and we got through it..........when my mom and my D passed away, it brought a deep sorrow in my heart, knowing I had deeply disappointed the two women who meant the most to me. (In fact, I often feel more sadness now, than when I discovered they knew what I had done). "Disappointment" doesn't seem a strong enough word. For me, I had not only betrayed my H........I had lost that which had been so precious that I'm not able to describe adequately. I had been a role model, someone people respected........especially my family b/c they knew of the struggles, etc. My EA was much more than just making a mistake.......as some describe an A. For a person who was very straight-laced in her life, trying to be a positive example, and not wanting to be a stumbling block to any person (morally or spiritually) or ever have her character questioned.........to show a side of herself she never thought was possible, b/c of her high standards, and then seeing the shattering affects it has on those who would have staked their life on her character...........is like looking into your own soul and not recognizing the eyes looking back. How dare she hurt such a good, loving family! How dare she take away their respect and trust.........and in its place leave doubt that she was ever the person they believed her to be. Had they be deceived all previous years? One of things she learned growing up was having a good reputation meant everything. She had taken it to heart and had lived it, until she had slid off into a new world the Internet offered. (Not blaming the Internet, b/c it could have been somebody somewhere else, but the Internet provided the means to feed the fantasy and to be more daring or brazen than perhaps in a more traditional sense).

I think it may have been Txhubby who wrote that his W would forever be tainted. Although my family never treated me as if that's how they saw me, maybe it's how I see myself. IDK, it's deep, and maybe it's just one of those days for me. I think I've healed and moved forward, then years later something like a death happens that brings the sorrow and regret flooding back again. If I should outlive my H, I'm sure the pain will come again....and it may be a lot worse, since he was the one I betrayed. .

Posters have occassionally asked me about my loss. What did I lose due to my A? I took something I valued, and I tainted it. Forgiveness is necessary in a MR, and in families. However, forgiveness does not undo the act of betrayal. The one that has been betrayed, and the one who did the betraying......each has to find peace. There are consequences, and if I had had to feel all the devasting affects of an A in one day.....I don't know if I could have taken it. Maybe that's why the regret almost overwhelms me at times, still a decade later. Maybe it comes in layers, like the onion. Sorry, I"m rambling.

This has sounded mostly like a journal. Certainly for no sympathy, but to let you see Into this part of a former WW that is so personal, and that otherwise, you may not see in your own stitch. I'm not saying the M won't reconcile, I'm just saying she may not share some of the lpainful regret that lingers in her heart ten years

from now.

[hoosjim]

Wanted to reiterate that I am pretty sure (can one ever be 100% sure) that W is fairly firmly in "NC" land, here. Is she as mopey as I would expect, currently? Well, no, but I think I might have been underestimating how long she has been in "No Contact". If you include the time from when she first started trying to NC and when she clearly WAS acting like a spoiled/desperate/hormonal lovesick teenager, its' been like 7 weeks or so. She very clearly had a couple of slip ups-- pretty significant ones with personal meet ups-- early in the process, and then her weepy, tearful phoncon with him about four weeks ago, and many sulky nights on our sofa or in guest room, so maybe she is already past the worst of the sulkiness, though I do not think she is anywhere near "over" it emotionally. (She still discusses her ideal man/relationship a little too often and still throws up my past neglect back at me as well which MC says is a warning sign she's "not ready" to work on MR) Nonetheless... she DOES appear to be at NC. Which leaves me at a bit of a quandary, if true, about how to treat HER. I know what I have to do for me, that much is clear, but... how much, if at all, do I "pursue" her? This is a woman starved for attention, neglected for years. While I need to continue with my own self improvements and GALs, seems like, unless we separate (and I even floated this idea out there yesterday-- you know, maybe we need some time apart-- which pretty much shocked her to hear me say) that I should not be completely ignoring her. Just... where to draw the line. She even said yesterday-- "maybe the best thing to do is not to second guess every interaction between us. Just do it and see how it feels (she was talking about both seeing each other socially as well as physical touch.) Idunno. I've only seen a "high" level of interest from her a couple of times since all of this started. Problem is, one involved me completely dropping rope/going dark for a period of 4-5 days, BUT the other involved me actually being more routinely forward, flirty, etc.

I don't want to lose this woman by making the same mistake I made (neglect) for the past 10 years.


Wow Sandi, thanks for sharing that. I am so, so sorry you and the ones you love had to feel such pain. That is actually one of the things that brings tears to my eyes so frequently with my own and my friends' (my wife's bff's(WW) husband) situations... so much pain. And why? For what? Just... so sad.

Thank you very very much for sharing, as I am sure that that cannot be easy.

Not to tread on your own story, but something you wrote there sparked a recollection in me... one of the things that makes me think my W may have come around a bit: Yesterday she was talking about being away and about spending a lot of time by herself, walking and just thinking. She said with all the stuff of the past few weeks she had realized she was being someone she didn't want to be (not exact words, but something like that)... that she didn't want to be "The Cheater" (which was surprising coming from her, as she has always had trouble acknowledging fault, even before her "WW" stage, and certainly almost never takes names to herself, particularly one with such negative connotations.) That doesn't, of course, mean she is "back" with me... we caused each other a lot of pain, and I particularly caused perhaps immeasurable and unfixable damage to our relationship with my neglect... making her feel unwanted and "dead inside" and that she cried herself to sleep she forgot how many times. This is the pain I have to live with... to know I caused that level of pain and desperation (NOT that I caused the A, mind you), but that I hurt someone that much who I care about so deeply. Don't know if that will be fixable, but I pray to God every day to show me if there is a path to doing so so I can take it.

[25yearsmlc]

Sandi

I'm very moved and sad and want to give you a hug.

I'd say more but don't want to hijack.


((( )))

[hoosjim]

Sandi

I'm very moved and sad and want to give you a hug.

^^^This, too. If I could do so without it being inappropriate. Maybe like side "buddy-hug"

[sandi2]

Thanks for the hugs, 25 & Jim.

I know what I have to do for me, that much is clear, but... how much, if at all, do I "pursue" her? This is a woman starved for attention, neglected for years.

Romantically pursuing her this soon, may not be a good idea. You aren't even certain she's not making some type of contact, b/c you can't possibly know everything she does, especially when she's at BFF's. (I could shoot holes in your explanation surrounding the July 4th get away....but I won't right now). She has made no attempts to give a verbal recommitment, and frankly, I haven't seen much effort. She plays this cat & mouse game, instead of being upfront. To me, it looks as if she is throwing crumbs to keep you hooked.

But just for the heck of it, let's say she is legit. If so, then you can do things together, have lots of fun.......but don't push your luck b/c she may not be ready......especially when she's still reminding you how she isn't attracted! (Why do you think her feelings have changed?) Anyway, if she doesn't respond well to flirting, then step back. Many H's on the board don't understand why she wouldn't be ready......especially since he neglected her in the past. It is a transition WW's go through, and it takes a while for some of them to want the intimacy. Now there are some WW's who engage just for the physical, but they are not ready for the emotional intimacy. Maybe a few are reversed, IDK. I'm not sure about WH's, b/c men and women are wired differently (in more ways than just sexually). You refer to her as a sexual being, and I suppose you mean she has a high sex drive. Yet, look how many years she stayed with a man who was not filling that need. I'm just saying that what YOU think she would want, doesn't mean it's what SHE is ready to receive. That is the logic of a LBS, not the wayward. Many times the LBH sees having sex as sealing the deal with his WW. It's not. So, please don't rush the romantic moves. Be keenly aware of her responses. She may be ready right away, but chances are......she won't.

Oh, and I wanted to be sure to tell you that whenever a WW "slips" during the NC/withdrawal period, it places her right back to ground zero. She has to start all over again. So those weeks when she backslid, don't really count. It's like other addictions, when you backslide and get a fix.......then you have to start over again.

One of my problems was that I continued to fantasize about the "what if's". I ended the A, got through the NC, but I had a devil of a time trying to keep OM out of my head. I believe that was why it took me so long to get through the final stages of withdrawals. And until I realized I was keeping the A alive in my head........the healing could not begin. My feelings for my H would not return, and the resentment and disrespect would not leave........as long I allowed OM to be in my thoughts. Whenever I talk to someone about controlling their thought patterns, you better believe I can sympathize with the struggles.

I don't want to lose this woman by making the same mistake I made (neglect) for the past 10 years.

I know.......and I know that is the truth behind you would want to choose in-house separation rather than physical S. Everyone is not exactly the same. From what I have been able to determine, most WW's don't bounce back. In other words, the girl you M and the woman that wanted intimacy with you all those years........may not show up......or at least, not like you expect. It takes time, b/c there's a lot of work for her.....if this is done right. Just b/c you are antsy to make up for the neglect, doesn't mean she's of the same mindset. She has to have time to get there.

I hope she is doing as well as you want to believe. IDK, something just doesn't ring quite right......and I can't help but feel it is you wanting to skip through this part and get on with it. That's why I'm concerned you will stop posting, b/c you feel the frustration over the MC not being more successful, and you are afraid to leave her. A common mistake I have often seen, is when the LBH takes back the WW (figuratively) without her doing the necessary work. In some cases, neither one do the work......and they just exsits in separate lives at the same residence.