You have been given a lot of great advice. I was in a similar place to you after b d in September and was just like you, including allowing myself to listen to my w speak openly about OM, entertaining an open M, and a general willingness to do anything to save the M. The two best pieces of advice that I got here and seriously helped were to believe and then act and then say:
1. I will not be in a three way relationship. 2. I want to be your H not your friend.
I was afraid if I believed or acted on or said those things that it would be the end of the R. Instead, those were important steps in reclaiming my dignity and self identity apart from my W.
Another observation from your posts is I think you think and analyze you and your W and your situation way too much. It isn't helping you. Analysis is good. Over analysis suffocates and paralyzes you. I have learned this the hard way. That's one of the reasons why GAL and one day at a time is so important, to free your mind to think of other things or nothing at all. To do otherwise is too taxing and draining to do for the marathon that is before you.
Peace,
Gordie
Gordie, thanks for your comment.
Yes, I think I agree with you as to making that clear boundary. To some degree W has come around more the past few days but it is very confusing for her (she keeps saying that word). What I am hoping she can articulate for herself is WHAT it is she is missing in the MR. The things she says she likes about me and us all point to a good potential. Maybe the problematic aspects (a weakening sex life, which recently got a little wilder and dare I say better AND the way we resolved conflicts..or rather escalated them).
I agree with the over analysis. I do think I am sincere when I say it is because of OM. It confused me why she kept him around. I have now made the commitment to myself that I stop worrying so much about that. She knows how I feel and if she wants to she will come back. But that is what I have done my entire life: I analyze things so I can survive. It's not healthy to do that right now I get that.
But the emotional temper thing is still an issue. You seem to think b/c it's mostly about OM, it's alright. It's not alright to interact the way you two do, with any conflicts and this is a loaded one.
*you were not calm or in control of yourself when there was no OM in the picture, so it's something you have to work on.*
It is not attractive to see a man who cannot remain calm. It says "I cannot control myself" and is often coupled with a man who seeks to control others, ironically. Do not confuse a hot temper with romantic passion.
So I'd want to know what you are specifically doing to address your "heated communication" issues. We can all calmly compromise when a topic is not emotional or terribly important to us. That's the easy stuff we learn in school.
But dealing with a tension filled conflicting desires/emotions and lack of certainty about outcome, is always going to happen in life.
So whatever boundary or line you create, you still need to deal with this^^^ issue.
I know you are in pain. Gosh I don't mean to hammer you about something you already regret. I'm rooting for you.
I just worry it's being sort of tossed aside as not that big a deal. A vague promise to talk to a MC about it...
Throwing/breaking things, pushing her, are significant red flags to me and continue to be.
You can't just say "if she stops seeing OM then I'll be calm" - THEN we will handle things in a way we have not before...
how's that going to happen?
I know she has issues too.
But she's not here working on the m, you are.
Keep at this.
Thanks for your concern. I agree with that. To be clear; the violence has disappeared. Me pushing her out was years ago at the start of our marriage or maybe even slightly before that. Most of the other acts of violence have been her. The worst I have done is when she comes at me screaming or with an object is grab her wrist. I have since stopped doing that. But to be clear the last time that happened was at least a year ago.
We are right now at our worst division but I am proud we haven't had an escalating fight.
I agree that the temper is an issue and I may seem dismissive because I have been able to remain calm 99% of the time. The only exception is when it explicitly involves OM. I recognize that that 1% is also not helping matters.
What I do? Is think before I speak, walk away when an argument starts, rather than think about how I can win the argument I take a step back and think about if we REALLY have a different view point.
What I meant with the MC comment is that while I am determined to not have disagreements that escalate that W still clearly has fears about it. Hopefully the MC can help us give tools and resources. Either W gets to feeling safer on her own or through counseling. My desire and intent isn't enough to control how she feels. And of course she expresses anger and resentment and says things like too little too late. Etc.
But yes I agree with you that the temper is an issue. We are both explosive people and that is just not helping things. I actually think I tend to be calmer and I have been able to be calm.
just so you know, I'm in a Divorce Support group here in the US.
It's a great group of 12, (6 men/6 women). It has taught me so so much. Very comforting.
2 weeks ago, for the first time in the groups history, a h snapped and stabbed his wife to death and then shot himself to death.
He was in my group. We will never know what triggered it but he did say he had an "anger management" issue. The police had never been called and there was no history of domestic violence. He admitted he could snap at his kids/wife and get controlling.
And he had always remained calm in class and he attended every session for 39 weeks...
I'm a tad sensitive to tempers, escalations, etc.
Domestic violence is not always a linear path.
Don't freak out. I'm not calling you a monster or killer. I'm saying not to take it lightly.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I fully agree with your fears. I don't like that side of myself and I also decided that I don't want to force W to stay with me if she wants out. While I want to fight for us and want to show her we can have a good MR ultimately I have to respect her choices.
If I stabbed her to death I would lose her too. If I let her go she at worst is gone from my life and at best may come back to me as a lover (and possibly as a friend). I don't like that reality but that is because at this point W does reach out to me for comfort and intimacy and so I don't just get coldness. I think it's mostly fear and uncertainty.
So very random but W just walks to my office sits down and writes things that will make her feel empowered and the list is so simple (and I actually agreed several weeks ago that she should do them): do the GRE exam (for PhD), work out each day, open bank account (she had poor credit so everything is in my name...so I get that she feels that is controlling) and take driving lessons.
If the issue really is her fear of being trapped maybe doing these very simple steps would also empower me (I am always her driver and of course in fights I sometimes bring that up) maybe that is the source of her confusion and reluctance to want to work on this. I am not going to expect miracles anytime soon and I certainly need to keep giving her space (which I already accepted that if she needs to be alone that that doesn't mean she is mad at me) and I certainly shouldn't force her to think too much about the R. Leave that to the MC and IC.
I will say... the few times we have had sex lately has been magical. It is like we both recognize we are sexual creatures and we both were way too uncommunicative about that. And I think one of the draws to OM was that he was exciting in the bedroom.
We also have begun to do chores together like a team the past few weeks. I always felt she just expected me to do everything and the few times she asked me to cook with her I was uninterested. But we are working more as a team.
Now if we can do the same about finances especially with her having her own bank account perhaps there is a way out of the darkness.
I still expect this to at least take a year. And maybe tomorrow or tonight I write an update that contradicts what I just wrote but I am telling myself that it doesn't really matter if she wants to be married to me if the only change is her expressing those words. She still goes to MC, she still wants to spend time with me, she still continues to open up about her day (at one point I said I felt I was her therapist... she felt I was trying to fix her problems while she just needed someone to listen).
Don't get me wrong. We are clearly not together yet. It's very fragile. But if W focuses now on what would empower her it is a sign (I think) that she is thinking about a possible R with me. If she moves out the only thing she needs is a bank account (she had that as #3).
It makes me sad that she feels so controlled and trapped but after critical self reflection I acknowledge I wasn't great. It pains me because I teach about being careful of abusive relationships. But that is the past. I can only control myself NOW.
OR she is manipulating me and just is doing these things to help her move out. But several of the items don't fit the moving out part (GRE, working out). OR she could have simply said she needs to do these things to help her move out. But now I am over analyzing. And even if she isn't telling the truth, I come back to the fear part. She actually smiled when I said good list and that it would empower me to see her do those things.
just so you know, I'm in a Divorce Support group here in the US.
It's a great group of 12, (6 men/6 women). It has taught me so so much. Very comforting.
2 weeks ago, for the first time in the groups history, a h snapped and stabbed his wife to death and then shot himself to death.
He was in my group. We will never know what triggered it but he did say he had an "anger management" issue. The police had never been called and there was no history of domestic violence. He admitted he could snap at his kids/wife and get controlling.
And he had always remained calm in class and he attended every session for 39 weeks...
I'm a tad sensitive to tempers, escalations, etc.
Domestic violence is not always a linear path.
Don't freak out. I'm not calling you a monster or killer. I'm saying not to take it lightly.
I'm so sorry that happened with someone in your group!
Thank you for sharing.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
So my W mentioned something about how she still doesn't feel in love and I told her we have to take it a day at a time especially if she is still scared.
The more I think about it the more I think she is just completely done with living in this State where she has virtually no room for advancement and because I wasn't behaving in the best way possible she saw me as part of the problem especially since I was complaining about the money needs for her to pursue that dream. I wanted to focus on those things and she heard me telling her no, she cannot do that. add that our sex lives became mundane and routine and the fact that I didn't really seem to give her attention the way she needed. This led to loss of respect for me because while I was at work I didn't seem to advance.
Since I discovered PA she has I think gotten some new respect for me but now she is in turmoil because a) she was convinced she wanted out, b) she tried and tried and tried to get me to go to MC or for me to recognize there was something wrong (in reality, I told her I was happy but I was always worried and afraid and desperate to find out what was wrong... a simple 'yes, let's go to MC would have done wonders') and c) her meeting someone else complicated everything.
She wants to keep OM around because the fear is still there and he is the only one here without a connection to me. She understands that I am worried that she does that and wants to be honest with me but also needs time and space to figure things out. Time and space I keep telling her she has but I keep having moments where I let my emotions get the best of me.
She says I need to stop doing nice things for her but she does appreciate them and enjoys them. She clearly cares for me and wants to feel differently but also needs to focus on herself. So today, when she woke up sick I was there to help her and she appreciates it but also feels guilty I am doing these things for her and apologizes she doesn't feel in love.
I truly think IC will help her clarify her own thought process and it could lead to either the start of a better R or perhaps the start of us breaking it all off.
She needs me to not always push her to do things and I have begun to be more patient.
She needs much more sexual intimacy and while we have this sitch going on we have been much freer and open in expressing our sexual desires and (she says so at least) it has been different and almost more passionate. I have been trying to let her initiate any intimacy like hugs and kisses and sex but a few times I initiated because I think one of her things was that she wants me to be more dominant and take what I want. I make sure she wants to and usually right after I initiate she gets excited and tells me what she wants. I recognize this may be risky but I also think that intimacy is the lifeblood of a relationship and if she sees me as a friend the more positive our intimacy is the more perhaps she can get out of the fog. (especially also because she calls herself fat and ugly...hence the working out desire she has) --> the fat and ugly probably didn't help that she thought I didn't want to have sex with her and there have been moments where she was seducing me and I was just not interested (I want to punch that version of me....!)
Related: she always says I walk fast. This is true...it's part of being Dutch, we walk fast. But there have been moments where I think she is right there and I am already half a mile ahead. Even worse..there have been a few times where I went through a door, held it open for a bit but DIDN'T check if she was there and the door fell shut right before her. Again I want to punch that person and lately I make an effort to not do that. I don't overdo opening doors but I make sure she is there. I check my pace often and adjust it to hers.
She always needed me to allow her some time alone and with some ups and downs I have been better at letting her do this.
She needed someone to listen to her rather than interrupt and fix things. In recent months I have done much better.
She always liked it when I touch her to ease her anxiety. She calls it familiar. She calls it feeling great. She wonders now if she can live without that. Or if that alone is reason enough to stay.
Of course her turmoil now is greater because she never thought I would be able to provide this and now she doesn't know that when she says ILY if I go back to the old person. But she VALIDATES that I made these changes.
My dilemma is: do I encourage her to stay here so she can see that even with our lives intertwined so much I can keep doing these things OR does she need to be out on her own. She wants a week in a hotel and that may be good because it is short term but expensive. She said what if she signs a multi month lease and after a week realizes she was being dumb. (the fact that she thinks that a few days is enough tells me that she doesn't really want to be done)
In the meantime her writing down four things she would feel more empowered with are important things to pursue. Perhaps THOSE four things alone would greatly make her feel less afraid and more likely to recognize we have a lot going for us.
To her credit she recognizes more and more how she took me for granted. This morning she said she appreciates that even though I am sick (I am fairly certain it is a consequence of my own stress) I still drove her to work. I told her that those words are so powerful because I always felt she didn't recognize it and even though I am happy to do these things during fights I would throw it in her face. Or perhaps I would use it to punish her in some other way. She nodded and said she did and still does at times take me for granted.
While I was taking care of her today she said I don't have to do it I said you do the same for me and she said no I was mean to you. I suggested that perhaps her not being able to drive scared her so that when I am sick she would feel helpless.
I know...I know a lot of analysis...I am curious to see how MC goes tomorrow.
Is your wife American? If so, why doesn't she have a license? Unless you live some place like NYC where you don't need one, it can be extremely isolating.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Yes she is American. She has a fear of driving. When she was younger she got behind the wheel and there was an accident. One of the challenges has been that when she has been asking whether or not she should drive I focused on her anxiety and told her I could do it.
== So something else that I keep running into. So she mentions how talking to OM is a source of relief and comfort but I am not entirely sure how truthful she is. Last night she seemed to suggest there was an attraction there and even said "why cannot I like both of you for different reasons" and this morning she said it was as a friend.
I don't want to validate her hanging out with OM but I also don't want to force an ultimatum because clearly she feels more trapped.
It doesn't help that today is our session and she is always extra anxious before a session and on Fridays. Because she acts anxious I probably respond in similar fashion because she is looking for flaws in my armor and nice guy behavior.
But she cannot figure out how she really feels about me if she is stressed and anxious. Last night I said something how I think she is a wonderful person and she said "No I am not, because I insert censored word another guy and despite you asking me to stop talking to him I cannot do that and you think he is a bad guy and that makes me a bad person because only a bad person would be with a bad guy."
I want to tell her well if you essentially make a choice between us it will probably reduce your anxiety. But I kept my mouth shut.
Let's hope the MC can get us another step forward.
My wife, now XW, had a special friend (the OM). We were at Disney World when I first discovered they'd been texting each other all day long even though we were on vacation with my sons. I hit the roof; I actually told her I wanted a divorce while we were walking up the ramp to the monorail. I was one livid SOB.
That night, after the boys went to bed, my wife and I talked for several hours. She convinced me that I was just jealous and that her friend was just a friend. I bought into the nonsense; I was an idiot.
We eventually went to an MC and the MC became my IC. This is what the IC said to me, "Listen, this is how marriage works; if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go."
That's a quote worth memorizing. Don't let your wife sell you on the friend nonsense. The friend needs to go.
