WW in A. NC or not NC? Unsure. LImbo. (4th thread)

[hoosjim]

So you are suggesting I just "go dark"... no explanation?

[Ginger1]

I wish I can edit, I messed up the quote, by my response is in there.....

[sandi2]

Revisionist bomb she dropped-- apparently we only had sex five times in 21 years... and she was confident in and sad about that number. (For the record, while woefully insufficient, it was WAY more than that, though I didn't argue point at time because I was so dumbfounded and because she was in middle of pouring herself out.)

I would think her statement must have bruised your male ego, going by your response. The number itself merely represents a sexually starved marriage. How have you coped with so little intimacy? Do you have a history of looking at porn?
During the past 21 years, would your W try to initiate sex? If so, did you ever turn her down? Would she reject you when you initiated?

Also, we talked about the future and whether or not we would want to split "as a team"

What does it mean to split as a team? Is the MC presenting a scenario of both agreeing to split, in order to be happy?

I reiterated that I had no intention of going around trashing her or outing her to anyone, though I did say I was not certain I would be able to lie to kids if one of them asked me point blank, BUT... I did ask her to consider, if "happiness" and "wanting the other to be happy" was so important, how happy she thought it would make me to internalize and carry around the betrayal that OM had committed against me, taking my wife, and then being introduced around to friends and family as this nice, new, clean relationship and as a "good guy" when the truth was so much different, and potentially, having a relationship with my sons, and what kind of example that would set for them if they found out. She was very quiet in response to that.

In your initial thread, I remember discussing what to tell your sons if there was a split. I think I know exactly how your WW feels. She doesn't want her sons knowing the dirty little secrets behind their parents breakup. Neither did I want my grown children to know, and I was fantasizing of how I would introduce OM to my family and how they would accept him. I did not want my children to see me as tarnished. However, it's a lie.

If your sons are not told the truth (especially since they are at this age) they will live their lives under that lie.......not to mention what it does to you! The children and the spouses' parents should know there was OM, and it was not a case of both spouses wanting to just give up and call it quits. Something that was said to me when I came on the board was how the more honorable thing would have been to D my H and then go after some other man. But you see.........that's not normally how waywards think & operate. Even if you agree to give her a D, she'll want to protect her image by covering up the dirty little secrets. Not only does she not want to look like the bad guy to her sons, she doesn't want them knowing the truth. I even threatened my H if he ever told my children, I'd hate him till the day I died! (Apparently, I thought he would do anything to keep me from hating him ).

My suggestion is do what YOU believe is right and honorable to your sons, your parents, and yousel........based on your own standard of values. Don't be a part of the deception she wants to protray. You can be honest with your family, without all the gory details. I would try to answer any questions your sons may have, and not tell them to ask their mother. The reason being is b/c they need to know they have their dad's honesty. They can trust their dad to be real with them. As young men, and as sons, they need to know they can rely on him to tell the truth. This is important for their relationship with you! It's important to them, b/c they may feel betrayed.......and they think you've lied to cover up the truth, it could have strong, negative affects on them. How awful it must be for a child, of any age, to discover one of his parents has lied. You are showing them how to be an honorable man, husband, and father. Show them how a man deals with this type of situation.

You said you had no intentions of trashing her. I think that's the best she could realistically expect. As for splitting up as a "team", (if I am following your MC), I think your WW would take full advantage of the terminology. Is that the same as a friendly divorce?

Frankly, I am disappointed in the MC, b/c I think she gave you false hope that she would be able to pull the M out of this crisis. She made claims to things she has not delivered. Perhaps I am being too hard on her, but it seems as if she took this last session in a different direction........and I think it was not what your W needed to hear. The WW wants nothing more than to have a buddy-buddy relationship with her ex-H while she's free to do whatever she's big enough to try. IMHO, that is what the MC endorsed in your WW's mindset. You can have a friendly split, remain the best of pals, and go on your separate ways........and everybody lives happily ever after. That is not the message the WW needs endorsed by the professional counselor.

The MC told you that she wanted you both to focus on having positive moments together. Then she tells you in a private conversation (in so many words) that you are right to have boundaries or require certain accountability from your WW........and then the next session she is talking about having a team spirited breakup? Have I fully misunderstood? IMHO, I think your WW will see this as the MC finally "understanding" and "supporting" her side in this situation, and basically agreeing the MR is over. I may be wrong, but it seems the MC tells you one thing in IC, but does she really follow through in the joint sessions? Anyway......I can't see much good has come from the MC sessions. But that's just me.

And let me reiterate that I am NOT afraid of separation... BUT... I strongly believe that if it comes to that that I am not the one who should leave the house AND I am still not sure how to "force" that issue if it comes to that. Rope dropping I can do. How to get to separation where I stay in the house is a mystery to me beyond the concept of saying I think that that would be appropriate and best given the circumstances, and then going completely dark.

Does she have full time employment? I can't remember. Have you checked to see the legal ramifications if you left the house? Would you have to support her, beyond child support, if she moved out.......or either way. Know where you stand legally, and then decide what you will do.

My argument about the in-house separation is that the couple is NOT separated at all. They still share the same home, bills, chores, usually don't change their family routines, have meals together, watch tv together, share same traditional events, and other family activities. The H feels pressured to recognize/celebrate her birthday, their anniversary, Valentine's Day, Christmas........you name it, b/c he has no guidelines while living with her in the same house. I've even read where some couples continue to sleep together, but say they are in-house separation. I mean, where is the line drawn? Why give it a classification if nothing changes for her? That's the heart of the matter........the dynamics have to change, before she changes. When the dynamics do not change, and they classify their M status as "in-house separation", in a very short span of time (if any at all).......nobody can tell a separation ever existed. But oh brother, is it ever handy for the WW! Don't think for a second she won't take every advantage of that setup. And if the H should dare complain about her.......she'll start sreaming about how they are S and she is free to do whatever she wants. It is total cake eating for the WW, b/c she gets the best of both worlds. There was one case where the WW had the OM coming over to the house, while the H was there. But hey, they were "separated", and he thought there was nothing he could do about it. Instead of the in-house separation empowering the H, it crushes him. It prolongs the state of limbo, b/c in most cases, the H is trying to improve himself, and get the M back on track........but yet, he can't help but watch his WW as she flaunts her acts of rebellion and disrespect for her H and the M.

Yes, I believe there are a few strong men who could do it correctly, and eventually maybe even get her respect (if he stopped putting up with her cr@p). I just haven't seen successful in-house separations with positive results (perhaps my memory fails me).........where they actually go from the in-house status to agreeing to reconcile and work together to achieve a satisfying MR. IMHO, a change in the relationship dynamics is required from the man, before his WW will decide she wants to change their status. It's changing the dynamics within the relationship, that changes the limbo status, whether they are classified as S, or not.

It just gets to me when I see H's talking about how much they suffer in an In-house S. Now understand, these are usually H's with NGS, who passively endure the WW's overt disrespect and rebellion, while expecting her to "wakeup" and realize it's him she really loves. I have never seen it happen without something in their relationship dynamics changing. ( I have seen the imitation form, but it was really just her Plan B falling into place, and he was okay with settling as her backup). Maybe that's why it bugs me for people to see DBing as some passive, weak, nonactive way of saving their M. It bothers me when I read an update on the latest episode of a WW's cruel behavior........and the H asks, "Should I do something, or just go back to DB"? Ugh!!

So........do what works, Jim. That's the heart and soul of DB. Do what works!

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi.

So, a couple of quick things: first, I am eternally curious about your own situation.You talk about separation bing important and in house separation being doomed to failure, yet you yourself never left nor did your husband. How do you reconcile that?

Also, yes you do significantly misconstrue the NC is stance and approach here. A lot of that is on me for not very carefully stating how the session went. All of the teams split stuff came from my own w. BMC is actually encouraging us not to talk about the end of the relationship at all, right now, but instead to focus on what the relationship would look like if we were to reconcile. She thinks we are to negatively focused intend to constantly drift backwards into what we are going to do if and when we split. She is also a fan of disclosure of the A to the kids, even if we reconcile. The MC would very much like for us to get started on a program called Torn asunder which is meant to help couples recover from infidelity as well as from the hurts that led up to it in the marriage. Unfortunately, after counseling my wife individually, and after this past session, she still feels that on some level my wife is not sufficiently committed to the process. Either she is still hanging on to the affair in some regard, not having given any kind of hard and verifiable assurances of breaking contact and ending it, or else she has too many reservations about us and is not all in enough to make the process worthwhile. Or possibly both. So I have to also thinks I would be completely Justified in demanding a more concrete commitment to ending the affair and to showing me she is trustworthy. She says that my wife is carrying around a lot of guilt, and that she is very conflicted right now. Has fear that she will be trapped in a Loveless marriage, but also has fear that she will leave me and then it will end up being a mistake. The end of the day though, she is adamant that there is no point in continuing with the counseling unless the affair is completely over, there is no contact, and, on some level, my wife is committed do participating in the counseling.

On the neglect angle, a lot of that is in my earlier threads, but to save you the trouble I will give you a brief recap: there were significant health issues affecting me, which actually almost killed me at one point, which limited my physical ability to do just about anything, including sex and also damaged my glandular system resulting in very low male hormone production. He also had to chronically ill children which took a lot of our time and effort and energy and we fell into the Trap of caring for them instead of caring for us. We also suffered a significant financial crisis right about the time I started getting sick, which shattered my confidence and affected my engagement in the marriage. I effectively with withdrew because of that and the illness. And I didn't have the steady hormone boost to make me want my wife physically. We also started out a bit in the hole in terms of intimacy due to an ill advised commitment commitment to Natural Family Planning which damage the spontaneity in our early marriage and limited our intimacy. My health problems eventually started to resolve about five years ago, and currently I am as healthy as I have been at any time since I was about 22. But by the time that started to turn around, the damage had already been done.

The above should read that "SHE (MC) believes I would be completely Justified in demanding assurances..."


Sandi, sorry, fractured thinking here and typing on phone all day so I miss stuff. One more thing:

I thought you had said previously that if your husband had threatened to "out" you that you would have divorced him. Am I mis-remembering that?

Also, assuming, as many indicated previously, that I should not threaten to hold the kids reactions "over my W's head" as leverage. Rather, just refuse to be part of the deception if she brings it up. Yes? Which is kind of how i am inclined to proceed and is what the tenor of my comments in the MC session was.

Quick update-- she came home this evening, after extending her weekend to include a late "lunch" with bff as they were both driving home. Details on that are a little sketchy and unbelievable, but... whatever. I guess I sounded irritated when she called to tell me about that. I made it a point to be "out" when she got home-- went down to the boathouse and rented a kayak to have a quick paddle and let off some steam. Was hoping she'd bring the weekend or the "lunch" up cause I've finally just "had it." But, sadly, she got "tired" early and is sleeping on sofa. No word about her weekend or anything. She's also way too cheery. Thinking she pretty much must've seen OM over weekend. Oh well. she can sleep on the couch all she frikking wants.

[25yearsmlc]

The earlier post should read that "SHE (MC) believes I would be completely Justified in demanding assurances..."

But your w wants out. She is not committed and does not or cannot give you assurances.

Regardless of OM and no contact, etc. she wants out.

I am not big on exposing affairs (but would not lie to cover it either).

Rather than arguing the point, note that your wife feels justified in wanting out and in having the A. She thinks you only had sex 5 times in 21 years and even if it was 5 times a year every year, that's a SSM. The exact numbers do not really matter much.

In her mind, rejection of her has been going on most of the m. That may be why she wants to see you feel the rejection hurt she felt.

I'm not defending it. I'm saying that whatever her reasons for feeling done, you need to anticipate she will share them if the A is outed.

So if you expose it, my guess is that she'll explain her justifications and that's not going to be easy for you.

Hoosjim, bottom line is you are trying to make choices about things not really in play.
Seems the fundamental problem is that your wife is not all in the m.

I also don't think an in house sep will work for you. Sandi's situation (in that regard) is probably very unusual.

IF there is a chance to salvage your m - it is by letting go of it.

If it turns out not to be salvageable, you'll be farther down the road than you would be otherwise.

[hoosjim]

I dont know, peeps. I don't know if I can do that... meaning let her go to the point of us separating out of house. Think that that pretty much means she ends up in arms of the OM and... I don't know that I can handle that. On a number of levels. I just can't. I just really, really might not be able to do that. I may just need to try to work and hope for the miracle.

Sorry.

[Coconut]

I know that it is tough, but you have to detach and drop the rope for your own sanity, once you do, the way you feel about her and OM will change.. You will find the happiness you are seeking, but you will find it in yourself. Sounds cliche, but when I moved away from WW I almost immediately stopped being concerned about her every action, but I still was in mourning of the loss of my M and was angry with WW, 4 months later I started realizing I was getting much happier, now 8 months later I sometimes, but rarely, feel sad, and couldn't care less about what my WW is doing. With all that time and space from her, I realize that it wasn't until now that it would be possible for me to effectively work on MR if I was to choose to do so, because I have forgiven her. Right now She's not someone I want a MR with, so for today I wouldn't consider getting back, but if she decided to make some serious changes in herself, who knows what would happen in the future... But I'm fine with it never happening.

As for Sandi2 sitch, she was the WW that sought help, guidance, etc., even when she didn't have any feelings for her H, well no good feelings anyway. That is not typical of WW, most are not interested in following their moral compass, Sandi2 didn't fix herself for her H, she did it because she wanted to be a good, moral person for herself, extremely rare.

[Ginger1]

Everyone has been telling you exactly what I have been telling you and in a great way.

Right now she wants out, you are trying so hard to keep her in.

Something I learned from my divorce and his affair that I took further into my reationships post D.

When I date, I am not jealous, and my least of my fears is my partner cheating on me. No one understands this. The reality is, if someone wants to do it, I am not going to pull out all the stops to try to stop it, to ensure it won't happen. If that person wants to be with me they will not choose someone else. If they choose someone else, well, why am I going to force them to stay? I want no one in my life who doesn't want to be here on their own will. Staying in the house just to ensure the affair doesn't go further is not getting her to love you or choose you. You want this woman to not chose the OM. You want her to choose you because you are worthy. Because she genuinely wants to make it work with her husband.

I believe your only chance is truly dropping the rope. Letting her do what she feels she needs to do. Maybe one day she will choose you. Then you decide if you choose her.

[25yearsmlc]

I dont know, peeps. I don't know if I can do that... meaning let her go to the point of us separating out of house.

Okay to be clear, are you saying you think by you both remaining in the house, you are increasing the chances she will give up on the A and that she will also, choose you? What evidence is there that this could happen? Isn't the evidence suggesting the opposite?

I notice that remaining where you are literally & figuratively, is the only path you know, So it is probably the least terrifying...even while you know deep down it's the path leading her away for good...either leaving the house

OR carrying on the A in a very thinly veiled "oh so discreet" way...while you live there too.


Think that that pretty much means she ends up in arms of the OM and... I don't know that I can handle that. On a number of levels. I just can't. I just really, really might not be able to do that.

When you say you "don't think you could handle that", what do you mean?

Have you discussed this fear with your IC? Because I can't tell if you mean you'd take your own life or someone else's or have a break down or that the m would be over, or what.

This^^ greatly concerns me.

Also, you are not taking into account that YOUR side of the equation could include you being happy without her.

That's^^ kind of a big oversight, don't you think?


I may just need to try to work and hope for the miracle.

Sorry.

I don't know what "try to work" means. Keep doing words/no actions?

Anyhow, we all can hope for miracles. Nothing wrong with that - as long as our hope is not really an excuse to stand still and say we are "standing for our m",

when in reality we are paralyzed by our fears of the unknown & feelings of regret.

You have a sh1t sandwich, I know. Most of us here do.

But you don't have to eat it all. You could put it down and make a sandwich you have not tried before - but which you will almost certainly enjoy more.

[OwnIt]

Jim:

My H's affair with OW1 lived for 3.5 years in the shadows. After he moved out and they could see each other whenever they wanted, it died in less than 3 months. Now he is on OW2, but he is a really sick puppy and the affair was definitely only a symptom of his greater problems.

I don't know if there is data supporting this, but I have read that EAs and fantasy affairs are much more dangerous than PAs. I think you believe that you are keeping her closer by keeping her there. But until she sees OM and that relationship for what it truly is, instead of what she imagines it to be, I don't think you have a shot. I'm just trying to say don't be afraid if she does move out. It will likely be for the best.