WW in A; Broke NC promise; Dropping Rope-3rd thred

[Tread]

TxHubby,

Thanks for that explaination. Been waiting for months for someone to break that down.

AnotherStander,

What you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of. If my W decides that she is just going to mess with various OM for whatever reason. Then why would I take that back whenever it seems like she was out there spreading it for everyone? One guy can be forgivable. But when you cross the line with multilple, which I feel may end up happening eventually. I don't see myself wanting that in a W. Because I wouldn't have married someone like that to begin with.

[Ginger1]

I am not telling you what to do, only what I have seen.

Being in the house rarely gives a chance for the WAS to miss them.

For most, coming to the point where you don't care what the WAS is doing while you are living under the same room and reaching full detatchment rarely comes under the same roof of a cheating spouse. ANd you spend ALOT of time in her head.

TX HUbby proves it not impossible. But it takes ALOT. It's really all a matter of not if it gets her to notice you, it's what route will be the best for your to become fully detached and the best you possible.

[hoosjim]

I'm kinda with TX hubby here, and for one basic reason-- As he said, much harder for her to carry on her cheating lifestyle guilt free under my roof. In fact, I don't wanna make it at ALL easy for her. OM is relentless, has almost no time commitment job wise, can basically come hang out with her whenever, and, quite frankly, leads a very carefree gun party lifestyle that right now she finds very attractive. So I see no reason to make it easy on her to carry on this A if I don't have to. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... I am more than willing to separate if that ends up being the only way to enforce my boundary and if she won't cut contact(though right now it kinda looks like she has)

[AnotherStander]

What you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of. If my W decides that she is just going to mess with various OM for whatever reason. Then why would I take that back whenever it seems like she was out there spreading it for everyone?

Yup exactly. Here's the thing with BD- it makes the WAS remember nothing but bad things about the M and it makes the LBS remember nothing but good things. They both have rose-colored glasses firmly in place and only see half the picture. Ironically it's opposite halves. With time, the WAS starts remembering the R wasn't all bad. And the LBS starts remembering it wasn't all good. The glasses come off eventually and the WAS starts asking "do I really want out of this R?" while the LBS asks "do I really want that R back?" There are quite a few recon stories on these forums and one thing they all have in common is showing how piecing is the hardest work of all. It is actually much easier to walk away (not at first, we want to cling to them with a death grip, but eventually). Pretty much all LBS's get to that point of being content with never looking back, but it takes a while.

So I see no reason to make it easy on her to carry on this A if I don't have to. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... I am more than willing to separate if that ends up being the only way to enforce my boundary and if she won't cut contact(though right now it kinda looks like she has)

Great stuff Jim, one of the strongest statements you've made!

[hoosjim]

Sigh. I am so frikking bad at this.

Sum total of situation appeared to be that she was cutting contact with OM, though, oddly, without fully "committing" to cutting all contact. If that makes sense. She was doing all the right things, and OCCASIONAL monitoring was not turning up any "infractions", but she was still hesitant about unequvically committing to cutting all contact forever, still defensive about having to do so, and still resentful of the things I'd done to hurt her and effectively make it so that the "Relationship was Already Over" when she involved OM. Meanwhile, I had been doing pretty well at GAL and distancing, the latter of which when I did two weekends ago really drew her toward me.

Fast forward to Friday 6/30. Counselling session again tearful. She reiterated for the millionth time how she had no feelings for me, couldn't see herself ever having feelings for me, and wanted that "special spark" and "chemistry" as well as a laundry list of things in a man that pretty much describe OM to a "T". She did come forth with some more details about the A, defended the OM as a "good guy" on a couple of occasions and, most importantly, had an outright "angry" moment with me where she all but blamed the A on me, even as she "recognizes that it was "wrong" to do." Also said based on all of the above that she is not sure she wants to continue with efforts to work things out (which is kind of where I am.)

Based largely on belief that we were in "no contact" with Om, or at least very close, MC advised us to stop thinking/talking about worst case scenarios (ie what we would do in event of a D) and start thinking about what a reconciliation would look like. Asked us to not make any decisions on MC going forward until after the July 4th weekend during which we had a family vacation planned. She indicated we should go out a couple times, try to "Be in the moment" and just have a good time and then talk when we go back. Well, we did that for the most part, although W was on phone constantly texting/calling with her bff with whom she had previously planned a weekend beach getaway for the latter half of the July 4th week.

Anyway, my efforts and self-improvements and everything pretty much completely unraveled. W showed up when we went out Monday night and she just looked smoking. I mean like better than she ever has, even when we first met and she was only 23 years old (she's 49 now and has just gotten better looking all the time.) But... smoking. We had a good time, spent all evening out, had a few, but not too many drinks, and went back to hotel. Only glitch was that she disappeared into bathroom for 30 minutes to talk on phone to bff. Back at hotel, she changes into a nighty, slides into bed, and starts talking about how cold she is. I cave and offer to warm her up... no pressure for anything more... and am of course rejected. Bad enough to get used for sex or get made out with as a temperature check, but I got sucked in so easily she didn't even have to touch me. In addition, trapped in a hotel with kids in next room and a commitment to have a family vacation of sorts for 5 days, very little opportunity for me to be getting out and distancing, doing "gal" stuff, etc. I managed to get out of room a couple of times in evening for walks, worked out once, and went to the corner beach bar one evening solo, but that was about it. So, strike two there.

Finally, my "tough" stance on she has to "prove" herself trustworthy completely fell apart. She played wishy washy all week on beach plans with bff, saying she "wasn't sure she even wanted to go" and would probably just "come home with us". (As a reminder, bff has been an enabler and "cover story" for the affair for the past few months.) That changed to "if I DO go I will come home with you guys first and then just go for a couple of nights. I had not talked to her about it yet, thinking she would reach out to ME to discuss it, knowing how I felt given the affair, etc., and what I had said about her needing to "show me something" to prove herself trustworthy. Well, she managed to evade and such until we were all the way home... and then packed her stuff and left early this morning (Thursday) to return Saturday. When it became clear what she was doing, I approached her at bedtime last night and basically said "Were you planning on talking to me about your plans, where you were going to be, when coming back, etc?" She seemed annoyed that I had brought it up (yes, granted she was already in bed, though not yet asleep). Her stance was that she HAD shared stuff with me... she had "let me see texts" between her and bff about the trip, she had talked about going down herself from home and NOT going with bff which would have "trapped" her there for four days.. had been "planning the trip for months" etc. etc. All of which was basically true, but... all things she did obliquely without coming to me and saying "Hey, how do you feel about me taking this trip, here are my plans" (and she KNOWS how I feel about this because I told her last week I wasn't thrilled about her taking the trip). But, In sum, I completely fell apart. Ended up acknowledgeing what she had done in terms of showing me texts and limiting trip, kind of apologized to her "if I seemed like I was harping on it" but that I would prefer she came to me as I didn't always want to be the one seeking out info and trying to drag it out of her ("But Im not trying to hide anything", she says), and then did NOT mention the affair explicitly nor insist on er doing something tangible to try to restore some of the trust between us. Just told her, "you know I am trying to "process this" (As if it were MY fault) and it doesn't help when you are not telling me things."

Anyway, she left this morning, did call with the name of the place and the location, and texted me a few times during the day. No way to know whether OM is there at beach with them or if there will be a meet up, but I DO know he is also out of town this weekend, so he COULD be there. Last contact I know of for sure is that wife sent (or tried to send him) a birthday card and present a little over two weeks ago. Don't know if hes been contacting her on phone apps or at work or not, BUT... I will say that while W has been mopey, she has not been so full-on depressed teenager-like that I think she has actually cut contact with "Mr. Wonderful."

Just pretty disastrous week, IMO. Think I need to regroup, and when she comes back I just need to say "The past couple weeks have been crazy... a lot of extra stuff going on but... nothing has changed. I still have no reason to trust you and you have given me no reason (though she has, to pretty much all appearances, cut contact with OM even as I can't confirm in a lot of respects including what's going on this weekend.) Running off with your bff, knowing how I feel about that and knowing what role "weekends with the girls" have played in the recent past in the A, was just not the way to rebuild our trust."

And then I just need to go completely dark WRT her and get on with my life.

[25yearsmlc]

Oh man, that reeks.

Look, I'm confused.

Is the only reason she is 'trying" to stay married b/c she doesn't want the boys to know about OM?

I'm asking you, not claiming it. But IF that's the biggest factor, then IMO, it won't last.

I would think She will justify her choices (as she already has). Maybe she will eventually share those justifications with the boys. I don't get the sense that she really wants to reassure you of her commitment to the m. In fact I sense that she is working herself out of the m.

Even if she's not seeing OM this weekend, she's not making the effort she needs to make to be "all in."

Maybe You want to believe her so badly that you're chomping on the scraps she throws your way, even in the face of serious doubts about her trustworthiness.

Not a recipe for lasting happiness.


As for the affair, it's one thing to think you are in a solid & satisfying m only to learn later that you were in a very different m than your spouse was.

Versus hiding our heads in the sand hoping things will magically improve and get better, until they get worse.

I think it's more shocking to have the first scenario. But it hurts either way.

So How can you show your wife she is losing you?

Because right now that's not what you are projecting.
IOW, I think the only way your w can see the light is by "losing" you. Might not work but imo, nothing else has a chance. You're not "Nicing" your way back in, and as long as the changes you are making are real and for you, then dropping the rope for real is about all you can do...but that means taking control of your life and moving forward.

you can keep the door open a crack or unlocked, but you must stop staring at and obsessing about HER choices/feelings/plans. Get back to you. How are the GAL meeting new different people? Man, I know it'll help you a whole lot more than having drinks with the same crowd & feeling bad about yourself.


The one clear thing in your situation, to me, is that your course of action to save your m

is the exact same course of action to take if you want to move forward in your life.

[AnotherStander]

Jim, I'm sorry it didn't go better, but as far as backslides go I think you handled the interactions with your W fine. Frankly I think it was cruel of her to bait you by coming to bed with a slinky nighty on and complain about being cold only to reject you like that, I mean temperature checks (no pun intended) are one thing but that is just blatantly messing with your feelings. I completely agree with you that you need to use this to regroup. You were doing well with GAL and now this experience has your emotions swirling all over again, so go back to what was working for you- detach. GAL. Leave your W to her mess.

Even if she's not seeing OM this weekend, she's not making the effort she needs to make to be "all in."

I agree with 25, it sounds like she is still fully checked out. All of the texting, the going away on a trip thing, the clear rejection in bed. She's not trying at all. She's still getting her ducks in a row for her fantasy "perfect" life without you.

So How can you show your wife she is losing you?

Because right now that's not what you are projecting.

EXACTLY. Right now you are projecting that you are a very solid Plan B, and that's where your W will keep you. She's got to think she may lose you. And that's the hard part. You can't just pretend she'll lose you, you have to get to the point where you truly are detached and are happy to go through life with or without her. So get after that GAL, and quit giving her these opportunities to spoil your new attitude!

[sandi2]

Is the purpose behind these recent pros & cons on in-house or physical separation due to you feeling compelled to enforce your boundary? B/c this is not the first time you've brought it up.

Here is what I see. Like most LBH's you are not detached, therefore, it is very difficult for you physically S from her. It's almost like you want permission to remain in the house with her. You fear that physical S would lead to D, so you mainly want a way out of having to stand behind your boundary. Although, I can't remember you actually telling her you would leave, but it is what YOU saw as enforcing the boundary.

Since I'm late to the party, you may be in a different place by now. However, I notice you go through this same thing when you suspect she is going to see the OM. I don't blame you for not wanting her to meet with BFF. She has been attempting some form of accountability or transparency? If she has truthfully had no contact with the OM, she has to be feeling pretty ripe for the taking about now. However, jumping to conclusions without knowing for sure what she's doing, could end badly. I would leave the "committed or not committed to the M" for the MC Friday. If your WW and her BFF don't engage in inappropriate behavior, then you might shoot yourself in the foot. Yes, this is a test, and there will more to come.

So that's really the question, then. How do you "enforce your boundary" while still "leaving that door open". Seems like a pretty fine line

You make it sound as if everyone has the same boundary, and there is only one wat to enforce it. Did you tell your WW that you would separate from her if she did not end the A? Yes or no?

You cannot give the WW the appearance that you are leaving the door open. B/c as long as she knows you are holding the door open........she will not believe she is losing you. That's why I can tell you are afraid to really drop the rope, go dark, separate or whatever. It's YOU that wants the door to stay open.

Txhubby can correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw him becoming the walk away husband. Actually, I see H's doing this quite frequently, but the thing that bothers me is the span of time and the abuse the H takes before he decides he's had enough. If only he would have had that attitude when he first discovered the W's affair, his self respect (and her respect for him) would not take such a beating. Txhubby did not care about leaving the door open, b/c he was fed up and would not take anymore cr@p, and.....his WW knew it.

LBH's are too careful to assure the WW that he doesn't want a D, and wants to work on the M. If not for her wayward mindset, maybe this would be okay. But she is wayward and the more her H "reminds" her that he still wants her.....the less she cares.
It equates to how she manages to remind him she has no romantic feelings for him and can't imagine ever having desire in the future. It bugs the mess out of him when she drops those little stingers on him, but he's doing the same thing to her by dropping his "I don't want a divorce".

There was a poster GaBulldog who posted quite a bit of stuff a while back, and had added some nuances to Sandi's 37 rules particularly concerning WWs who had achieved "No Contact."

He use to try to discredit almost anything I said (which started a long time ago when I disagreed with a particular advice he gave), and I felt his intentions were really to tear down the 37 rules. Anyway, I didn't bother to reply. Maybe I should have, b/c obviously it caused confussion. Let me say this once again, the 37 rules are guidelines (based on MWD's book DR) for a newcomer who does not know what to do when he arrives on the board. Some people who have not reconciled, continue to use them (ex: Vanilla). They are NOT designed for the piecing stage of the marriage. Your problem, Jim, is that you don't know where you stand in your MR, and that's why you bring up all these things and say she doesn't really fit the mold. Many LBH's bounce around, looking for something that fits their own actions (or lack thereof), rather than their W's behavior. They decide being the H to a WW requires tougher love than they want to do (like enforcing blundsries), so they decide she's a WAW b/c he was such a bad H. Some will look over the MLC forum and see people who are staying in the home as their spouse continues bad behavior. Then suddenly, they decide their W is having a MLC and is not a WW at all. I don't think it has anything to do with their W. They shop around for the label they feel comfortable having, and b/c they are too weak to say, "Enough, I won't take this cr@p any longer". I'm not saying you are looking for some type of way out of enforcing your boundary, Jim, but I think you are close to forsaking the board. This has happened many times, too. The H gets frustrated and wants a way out. In order to save face, he stops posting and leave the board. This is why we can't give anyone stastics about how many M's are saved, b/c we don't hear the endings. People just quit, and we don't hear the ending.

Your W may not be your description of a GGW, and that's good. Whether it's an exit affair or whatever, she is still wayward. Whether she's in love with OM or soul mates, she's still wayward. I think you are trying to find loopholes.

Sorry, this post is getting too long. I'll move along and try to catch up.

[25yearsmlc]

what she said^^.

Footnote, - the only wrinkle in your situation, which is not a rare one, is that you knew you were in a rocky marriage before the A, & you felt you played a significant role in the troubles.

I'm not going to argue that with you.

From your description, your w did the heavy lifting in the m and then she began to quit.

Your slightly unique twist is that you informed the "friend" you had, about the marital issues and he became the OM. Lesson learned.

But I don't see how that changes Sandis' & our advice to you, at all.

YOU still have your work to do which was/is to show you're a h only a fool would leave.

But that's not for your w! (I mean, maybe it will be way WAY later...)

It's b/c you want to be a great husband/father i.e. - you want to be a GOOD MAN - b/c that's what YOU Want. You seek self actualization and that's a great goal!

If you know you've made authentic changes, then you've cleaned up your side of the street and that's all you can do inside the marriage.

Now, you move forward as if you don't have a committed wife, b/c that is the ugly truth.
-
Like I said, this is not complicated. I know the situation Is acutely & painfully difficult.

But there is clarity in your situation.

I know You want an answer that is easier, an answer with less pain. Believe me, I know this.

but a less painful choice, a less terrifying option, does not exist. -

You have to deal with the cards you were dealt.

We are all rooting for you.

[Holding]

jim, it sounds like you're making progress with W, but she's fighting it the whole way. I remember you mentioned about her showing up at your favorite place looking all good, and dropping hints about not wanting to be with you. Now the nightie incident is more of the same. This seems to be her MO - she enjoys rubbing things in your face and shooting you down.

I don't bring this up to make you overanalyze it, but just be aware that it's likely to happen again. Be ready for the next time, and try to show her that you won't be a victim again.