WH came back. Piecing. Past the 2 year mark ...

[BluWave]

25,

I am very grateful, and also slightly overwhelmed, by your post so I am going to tackle it piece by piece without any fanciness--just my simple and honest answers!

In regards to your anecdote and my messy M tapestry: so what I think you are saying is the stats around infidelity are not clear (black and white) because we don't know how it is measured. Plus, and pretty obviously, are people really honest about it? Ha. NO! So here is my glass is half empty response (because I am a total pessimist): if infidelity is very common (which I gathered from the Ted), well that depresses me because I am forced to accept that people don't value monogamy in the way I do. Are there less people in the world that are trustworthy and loyal? On the flip side, if her data on infidelity is skewed and it is far less common that I thought, well then that bums me out because my H is more of a dirtbag than many other men. It's just a lose-lose anyway you spin it.

Regarding the time machine: I am working on it with toothpicks and tinfoil, and I'll let you know what happens. So no, I can't go back in time. Sigh. I would if I could though. I liked what we had before. I don't mean right before BD--things were going sour, I just didn't see it--but back by a couple years. I can only change now what I probably needed to change then, and I am still working on it, but I don't think I needed this level of disaster to look inside myself. I mean, maybe we could have went to MC? Or separated? Don't say it, I know, I can't go back in time.

How do I know what other people have? I am not referring to what I see when walking down the street or on social media. I am talking about real people that I know, or that have shared with me, that have good Ms. I didn't say perfect, never perfect. But I have several friends that genuinely love and trust their spouses, have mutual love and respect, and are both overall content with the M. I also meet so many older couples that have been married for decades--20, 40, 60 years--and truly love and respect one another. I ask them the questions. They tell me. (people tend to open up to their nurse about all things personal) What I find is that most long term Ms have not had large conflicts or betrayals. They just work. I had a patient today tell me he had been with his wife 38 years and they rarely ever argued. I mean, I can't ever know what life is like for other couples, but I honestly believe the chit that I have dealt with is pretty extreme.


OR maybe I was smart and loving (as a mother and wife) to put my ego & pride aside, to examine what really truly mattered to me and our family. To keep us intact.

I don't know. Sigh. Truly, I don't. ... Like I said, if for so many years of my life this A went against my belief system, and now I have compromised it to stay, then I have to better understand why. I have heard the argument "don't stay for the kids," and I have heard, "there is no better reason than to stay for the kids." They both make sense to me. For me, I don't think ultimately that would be enough for me. I want something more than that here. I want to feel as strongly about him now as I did and know I can. For me that means learning to forgive, trust, and respect.

Yes, I want to put a rational spin on irrational behavior and I cannot.

(getting increasingly overwhelmed by the length of your post, head is spinning, losing track ...)

lol. I need a break ... I'll be back ...

Blu

[BluWave]

25,

When you share your story of H abandoning you in your most vulnerable time, it pains me. Ultimately the reason we even get M is to have a partner we can depend on when life gets rough. It sounds as if he has not been available to his kids in their times of need either. And he is simultaneously boasting about OW as the "love of his life?" It's unbelievable, unnerving. How can you not wonder if taking him back 10 years ago was the right move? You can't tho, because that is passed. As you say, you did right by your family and there is more honor in that than walking away.

That being said, if you could predict the future and tell me that my H would do the same thing in 10 years, then I would walk. I would find a new way of living as a single parent and make the best of it.

There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence. Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.

I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation. I don't see my H as a selfish or arrogant person. He is actually quite easygoing, kind, generous, and perhaps sheepish at times. He is not a go-getter. He stands back, observes, and then goes with the flow. I think when things got too much to handle, he didn't have the strength to stand up to me. He was the Nice Guy and kept acting the part of family man. He silently grew to resent me. Meanwhile there was OW flattering him and validating his unhappiness with me. And so it goes ....

I say this because if I understand how things happened, I hope that it can be prevented form happening again. He seems to realize how flawed his thinking was and how selfish the behaviors were. It has been over 2 years since he left OW. When he left, he didn't look back and described relief. When I read posters that have a S that still has feelings towards the A person, I just cannot imagine. My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.

I am off track again ...

So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids," and it doesn't go away.

why won't it go away? I'm asking.

I want to be able to answer this. I don't know. There have been several times in the last two years where I saw hope, especially when we started Retrouvaille. Is it a deeper issue that I cannot answer until I explore childhood abandonment issues? I wish I understood better.

So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.

Sorry Blu but I'm still not clear on this^^^. Are they small flaws or big faults or what?

As in any R there are going to be things about another person that we don't like. As we stay with them, and love/accept them, those things are manageable, or even become apart of them we admire. There are also things that always bother us, but we let it slide, because ultimately the good outweighs the bad. When we question if we can even stay with someone, those things we consider flaws weigh in more heavily.

My biggest example with H is that I don't feel he has my back. I am such a loyal person so it hurts me deeply that I don't have his support. Someone could hurt me, and I see that he will still show them kindness. I feel that his close friends/family suoport him and only see his side. I feel that that is a reflection of him, as they have not spoken to me about these things. When we argue, he will use these peoples words against me. "Well my brother said XYZ." I cannot even desribe the fury this evokes in me. Why do other people get an opinion about my M?!? I talk to my support people about our issues, but they do not have judgments about my M or him; they will support me and us no matter which way it turns. I feel that he (even if its subconsciously) rallies people against me. I could be wrong, but this is how I feel.

Even the therapist he saw for a couple years would tell him his opinions and judgements about me. The same IC that saw him through his A and all his bad choices. Then H would tell me "well my IC said XYZ," as some sort of way to convince me that I was wrong about something. Again, I feel so hurt and angry about this. I feel cornered and as if he is somehow painting me as a bad guy to these other people.

I don't know if that makes sense. Again, I am not in the best place these days. ... I liked the story about Dan. Yes, there will always be Dans if things will ever change. I wish I was as strong as Dan.

Thank you for the time and helping me think a little bit more clearly. I don't want a perfect H, I am not going to run away, and I don't even mind being alone anymore. I just want to understand if this M can be saved and if not, I don't want to continue on such a painful/difficult journey.

Blu

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=BluWave]25,

When you share your story of H abandoning you in your most vulnerable time, it pains me. Ultimately the reason we even get M is to have a partner we can depend on when life gets rough.

though I want to be able to be cordial someday, this^^ might just be unforgivable. For sure it means i cannot be m to him b/c what if I got sick in 10 years? H did not have my back, which I should have known earlier, but he did not. I can see from the credit cards he was in Alaska the day I was sick, and I can't even explore that painful disloyalty further...

And I can say with absolutely certainty, hand to God, that if h were to have had a stroke or if h were to get very sick, I would have wiped his rear end until the day one of us left the earth.

I'm flawed but I'm damn loyal. At some point in our m, h was no longer the same way. I like to think he once was.

It sounds as if he has not been available to his kids in their times of need either.

^^this is true.

When I'd tell the kids that h was "flawed but loved them & just confused now/MLC" and that he was "hardworking and smart", etc,

my T asked me who I was trying to convince, the kids or myself or both. I could not believe the man I married had changed so much. So the answer is, both.
-

This very ^^^ insight came to me last week after a brutal night of nightmares. My T was very helpful.

((Sometimes the metaphors in my dreams, are so obvious I almost laugh at myself - - in the dream I was in a house that belonged to us -in my dream,- and the carpet was replaced with a sheet of the same color. YES, just Like the rug was yanked out from under me!..."really, subconscious, you couldn't be a little less obvious??"

In the dream, I found a cell phone between OW and h talking about their future dream home...And I met the OW and she was a hillbilly who muttered like a moron, but she was holding a really small baby to her face so I couldn't slap her.

Best part - I was screaming like a low class banshee out of control scorned woman, & in my dream - the neighbors came over & said "oh we thought you knew...we all knew." NO METAPHORS THERE... ))

But I'm starting to see reality and maybe I dodged a bullet.

Okay don't mean to hijack too much


And he is simultaneously boasting about OW as the "love of his life?" It's unbelievable, unnerving. How can you not wonder if taking him back 10 years ago was the right move? You can't tho, because that is passed. As you say, you did right by your family and there is more honor in that than walking away.


I do wonder.

The "upside" to his FB posts about OW and "introducing his Honey" and the "love of his life" (and trust me, I am scraping the barrel for the "upside") is that his comments are so over the top, so Not necessary, that they reek of craziness And or cruelty. And a strong need to validate his choices.

I mean, who does that?? And he's 60...wtf? If I meet a great guy and fall in love and commit to him, there will be NO Posts about it for a long time and then it'll be a freaking normal post. Nothing to prove.

But to your question, about if I wonder - yes ^^^this is one huge struggle I have, i.e. [u]that I made a mistake 10 years ago [/u]and that my choice to stay was only partly b/c I thought it was best for my kids. (Though I did very much believe that. I asked d's what their fears were and they each said "don't want to move again" and I did my best to avoid that. Which I did, for 10 years.

But I can see that I was also afraid to leave, & that I wanted to hold onto the future I believed would make all the sacrifices, worth it. We'd Finally win the jackpot from the poker game in which I only won every 7th or 8th hand, or just enough to keep me from folding and walking away from the table. Because I thought if I folded & walked away, everything I ever put into the m would be lost.

As opposed to cutting my losses.

This^^ haunts me.

[25yearsmlc]

part 2



That being said, if you could predict the future and tell me that my H would do the same thing in 10 years, then I would walk. I would find a new way of living as a single parent and make the best of it.

I understand. Sorry, no crystal ball here. SOME will argue that the best predictor of the future is the past, and it certainly is A factor

but it's not the only factor in predictions. If it were the only factor, no one would ever enter a recovery program for being an alcoholic.

There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence. Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.



^^that's fair. Good insight.

In your case, with your mil just passing, I'm one of those people who sees that as too vulnerable a time for your h, for you to bolt.

Interesting you would review the m so much, at the same time your h faces loss like you faced - when he bolted...



I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation.


Though they don't seem alike in some ways, my h needs a lot of verbal admiration & he said as much in MC.

i think i was too angry & disappointed in him then, to ponder that deeply enough.

To be fair to me, I complimented him far more than he complimented me, but I could see his ego's need for affirmation about his appearance and the working out, get too high. The last 2 years, it was annoying actually. He would announce on a daily basis what his exercises were and what his weight was and his recent achievement

he was obsessed with working out, running, talking about HIS WEIGHT - OMG...

and probably pushing off his mortality fears.



I don't see my H as a selfish or arrogant person.

Well in this ^^^ respect our h's are quite different. My H is very selfish. Of that, I'm certain. No question. H did what He wanted to do and resented it when h was not able to get his way. the only thing of importance I ever said "no" to, was going back to Alaska...so he took the choice away from me, ran off and now blames me for ALL of our ills.

It's an amazing revision of our m. Sickening but pretty crazy. And hurtful, blah blah blah.

he's also Very confident, which I found attractive, though in the past few months, 3- 4 people have said he is arrogant. I didn't ask for that feedback, and i'm not yet sure what I think . Maybe there's a fine line.



He is actually quite easygoing, kind, generous, and perhaps sheepish at times. He is not a go-getter. He stands back, observes, and then goes with the flow.

Good news, they are not very alike.

My h is "always striving, never arriving." It's one credential or goal or adventure (for him) after another. And virtually all of his goals require sacrifice of others, without appreciation or reward for them/us.

For awhile H would SAY that it'll pay off for all of us but looking back, I'm surprised I didn't confront the insanity.

i distinctly recall asking h if he thought more money for another year away from our d's was ever going to matter to them. I asked "you think more $$ in our 401k will make it up to them?"

And h said "yes when they see how much..."

he was wrong. Epic fail on all counts.

Ugh.




I think when things got too much to handle, he didn't have the strength to stand up to me. He was the Nice Guy and kept acting the part of family man. He silently grew to resent me. Meanwhile there was OW flattering him and validating his unhappiness with me. And so it goes ....

this seems to fit a lot of WAH's...

and so it goes...

I say this because if I understand how things happened, I hope that it can be prevented form happening again.


^^ that is the only legit goal of looking backwards, in my opinion. But even that has to be dropped at some point.

The phrase I am working on adopting is something like "the more you look at the past, the less of a future you have" or something to that effect.

You don't have to figure it ALL out before you move on. You could move on and when something triggers an insight or reminder, you can then look back for a bit and say "Aha, I see that...and so back to the now" and get back to your present life.

Maybe




He seems to realize how flawed his thinking was and how selfish the behaviors were.


I admit it, I'm envious. I recall h SAYING that his bff Dan had told him to prepare to "eat some crow" and that h said "I'm looking forward to it!" as if he was going to romance me back into the m, fully, etc.

I mean, I think that was his interpretation b/c he did not sound sad. (The real & possibly only remorse I'm sure of, was in Retrovaille).

As for the "eating crow" comment, I never made him eat crow. I never lectured him or asked HOW he could have been so selfish.

I never probed. WTF was I thinking?? Not saying I needed to punish him, but I sure should have wondered more about how he could be so selfish/dishonest. It was the lies that ate away at me.

Blu, I now think maybe I could not face the reality that I was m to a man who really no longer was very into family life and it was kind of a drag for him.

He knew that view didn't "look good" so he threw me some bones and things that NOW seem insane to believe,

but he'd wrap up major time away from us, in packages of "Just checking out a job/trying to get a pension/spend time with my ill mom/moonlighting ELSEWHERE b/c we need the money" AND then he'd resent me!

etc
and I accepted that.


It has been over 2 years since he left OW. When he left, he didn't look back and described relief. When I read posters that have a S that still has feelings towards the A person, I just cannot imagine. My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.

Oh absolutely. For anyone to try and recon after an affair, your h's behavior and comments mirror what we'd all hope for. Kudos to him for that, and if I recall right, you did not "keep the road home, paved or smooth" so even more kudos to his credit, in a way.

("25, let's not go overboard with the kudos to h"--understood! )


more later

[Stormchaser]

There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence. Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.

Good stuff, Blu. This is EXACTLY what happened to me. I had a pretty bad nervous breakdown in 2015 - I've had mental health issues in the past, but this was the worst episode to date. Caused by extreme job stress, financial issues, and just a general loathing of married life. She tried to help this time, but the worse I got (and I was NOT pleasant to live with, her and I clashed daily), the more distant she got and it was the perfect storm. She couldn't deal with me anymore and instead of doing the RIGHT thing, asking for a divorce, she went in the WRONG direction, which still pisses me off.

I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation.

Yes - my W avoided any more confrontation at that point. She told me later in therapy that she accepted that this will be our marriage for the rest of her life, accepted her lot in life, and at the same time got a LOT of validation from OM. Like I said above, perfect storm. Go to work, fool around with OM, get your needs filled there, come home, get your other needs filled there (family life, financial support). Best of both worlds - until that world came crashing down.

She told me she never felt so many emotions and so destroyed at once. Her exact quote was: "Next to my mom dying, this was the worst thing I've ever felt - my whole life flashed before my eyes that night you busted me. I never want to go through that pain again".

I especially like 25's quote here:

The phrase I am working on adopting is something like "the more you look at the past, the less of a future you have" or something to that effect.

I'm SO trying to live this way. Flashes of what happened still haunt me, but I'm working my arse off trying to stay present. Its a learning process to this day.

My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.

I'm trying this tact as well. One thing: We've been together close to 30 years. If this happened say about 10 years into the marriage, I'd be done. Its the GOOD history we've had. It wasn't all bad. Yes, she's admitted to emotionally straying in the past, and this time was the only time it got physical. But her definition of "straying" differs greatly from mine, in that she says she developed infatuations with someone else about years ago but drew the line at anything physical and she eventually came around. (Of course I know this is BS, but its what I have to believe). I've checked out several times as well, feeling so emotionally distant that I thought we'd never stay the course. But it always came back to her and I. We ebbed and flowed.

NOW is the time we're both trying to work on the M, see our mistakes with each other, and keep committed to keeping the family unit together. After all this, we really do like each other. She is now more involved in my mental health issues and LISTENS to me, instead of walking away or trying to give advice. I, on the other hand, have become more involved in HER hobbies, her fitness career, and we're trying to share a common bond now.

I just gotta let time do the healing.

[doodler]

Blu,

I don't know a d@mn thing about piecing, but Ben & Jerry's has come out with a new flavor called Bob Marley's One Love. I ate some last night and it's really good.

[BluWave]

25, thank you again. I am humbled by you.

Doodler, I gotta try that. Did you know that there is a Ben & Jerry's flavor locator online? I used it one day many years ago when I was craving Chubby Hubby, and I only had to drive 7 minutes. ... Now I am not a fan of chubby hubby ... or regular sized hubby ...

It is so much easier to post replies to others and give advice, isn't it. The hardest thing is to look inside, be honest, and then share. Sometimes I avoid sharing when things get hard. Plus, I don't like to disappoint people.

I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?

My logical brain has taken a backseat. I am tired. I feel like I want to avoid all this and just live my life without it. I don't have a plan yet. Just thinking a lot about how my life would be without this M and this ugly past.

Blu

[Stormchaser]

I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?

I'm sorry to hear this, Blu - what was his reaction?

[Tobias]

In regards to your anecdote and my messy M tapestry: so what I think you are saying is the stats around infidelity are not clear (black and white) because we don't know how it is measured. Plus, and pretty obviously, are people really honest about it? Ha. NO! So here is my glass is half empty response (because I am a total pessimist): if infidelity is very common (which I gathered from the Ted), well that depresses me because I am forced to accept that people don't value monogamy in the way I do. Are there less people in the world that are trustworthy and loyal? On the flip side, if her data on infidelity is skewed and it is far less common that I thought, well then that bums me out because my H is more of a dirtbag than many other men. It's just a lose-lose anyway you spin it.

Is there a third way? And I am going to ignore those people that cheat who had no reason to do so. Who are selfish perhaps. Who are just out for their own pleasure. But it seems many of us here who have had WW or WH recognize that we had our own flaws. We didn't provide what our S needed. I personally try to think of OM as someone who was there for my W when she didn't feel she could come to me. Does it hurt? Yes. Do I feel betrayed? Yes. But is OM not being in the picture mean that we have a great M? Nope. We would have probably kept going on and on until one of us (probably W) actually left.

So in my case I cannot fully see my W as a dirtbag for cheating.

It really [censored] we don't get training in how to "do" relationships. It's common because none of us know what we are doing and unhealthy thoughts, emotions and behaviors will continue because we never adjust.

[25yearsmlc]

25, thank you again. I am humbled by you.
-

It is so much easier to post replies to others and give advice, isn't it. The hardest thing is to look inside, be honest, and then share. Sometimes I avoid sharing when things get hard. Plus, I don't like to disappoint people.

Clearly this^^^ resonates with me. When I saw your post asking for my feedback a few months back I couldn't bear to disappoint you and others, & admit that I had filed.

I know you have been around the DB block, & given things a lot of thought. You know our situations are not very alike in some ways.

Sometimes the thing that most helps me here NOW, is to take my own advice.

Much easier to see the hope/hopelessness in other's martial situations than our own.

Pain sure colors a lot. And affairs and divorces and such, are traumatic ordeals.

One woman I know had cancer 4-5 years ago. She is now an LBSer divorcing. She told me "quite honestly, the cancer was less traumatic than this divorce". i believe her.

Cancer has protocols and statistics and ways to gauge progress...and you really have no choice but to go forward or give up. Maybe we need to see things that way. I'm not sure.




I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?


Some of these ^^ are only revealed in time, wouldn't you say?

What does "sorry/remorseful not the same" mean?

And if YOU have not changed, does that mean you are disappointed in yourself and need time apart to become the woman you want to become


OR

that inside this marriage you don't feel you will ever become the woman you want to become?


My logical brain has taken a backseat. I am tired. I feel like I want to avoid all this and just live my life without it. I don't have a plan yet. Just thinking a lot about how my life would be without this M and this ugly past.

Blu

No time machine Blu, you cannot go backwards to the "time before BD" and nor can your h. Remember when you said you had become very difficult. What is happening in you, now?

And here's another question...how is divorcing him going to help with the ugly past?

As for leaving and being tired, if not for the divorce proceedings themselves ($$$) and my d19 needing me more recently, I would be overseas. Much as I know it's the adventure and experience I want, the timing of it sure seems like I just want to run away.

H is in Alaska, so he literally could not be farther from the wreckage and still be in America. I mean, I get it.