on my way out but wanted to urge one thing in ALL the communications to your w, regardless of whether it is you or your mom.
Stress the positives (well loved, lots in common, etc) and NOT what pain your w is causing anyone.
First off, it will NOT help your cause. It's blaming your w for inflicting pain
when at the very least you know your w has been in pain of her own.
2nd - Do you really want her to defend herself? (No, you don't - b/c that will mean she blames YOU) and it goes downhill from there instead of rebuilding.
It's not like your w impulsively ran off with the gardener, even if it you feel this is very sudden or irrational.
It makes sense to her, it's true, AND it was not totally new. When your tells her that she is "throwing it away" - well, that is just not going to help you.
Reminding her of the upsides & positives does not require more..., trust that she will KNOW it goes into the "loss" category...
3rd, if others are going to talk about your m, then YOU (& w) must control the message.
And keep it short...
BRIEF BFIEF BRIEF
like "yes we are having a martial challenge. No 3rd parties, no abuse and nothing very dramatic but yes, it's hard - and I/we appreciate your support. "
The end.
Anyone who presses for more, gets a repeat of the above ^^"press release" & possibly a pause & glare...then thank them for respecting your privacy. "Yeah it's a rough patch/struggle" but zero specifics, UNLESS THEY ARE ABOUT YOU.
Cali, you do not want others knowing the details of this private marital struggle. Or your wife's issues which are not yours to tell.
It hurts the marriage. And It's not loyal.
more later
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I don't think I am projecting, but I'd be crazy not to show you how similarities in thought can get a good man in trouble.
I only know you from your words here. You share some good traits with my h - as far as I can tell from your words, you sound disciplined, intelligent and very hard working in your jobs. So is my h.
I'm not sure about your focusing skills but In my h's case, he had a great ability to focus in the operating room, partly by putting on necessary blinders. That is an excellent asset. (In real life, keeping blinders on to reach a single goal, is not so helpful). That may apply to you - or not.
Thank you for the complements if that was intended. If you understood some of the other things I do outside of my job and the training I am constantly going through then you would understand the kind of focus I can have. My work is only important to me in how it pays my bills and the fact that I help our soldiers stay safe on the battle field. That being said work and my life are very separate things and I don't or at least try not to have blinders up when going through life in general.
The stubbornness my h showed about "needing" to work and live in Alaska, reminds me of your inability to simply move for your wife. Because it mattered to HER.
So, Did you really read my post to you, or did you stop when it was not 100% validating or not completely applicable?
I read every ones post a 100% and I can care less if your validating me or not, I'm not here looking for validation, although you may think I am. I am here for guidance through this divorce or what ever it is for me. I know my wife and I know myself better than any of you do, of course. That being said when I have such a strong gut feeling towards something I really like to understand reason as to why it is wrong. When the reason given doesn't apply to my personality or of what my wife knows of me then I have issue.
For instance, I think there is a difference when talking about pursuing when it is someone who has a personality like mine. I can totally agree the running after someone, begging, pleading and crying for them to come back can have real negative results when pursuing the spouse. When I pursue my wife there will be none of that for a fact. I will come to her and talk calmly about things face to face with confidence and no expectation either. I feel that is a factor that isn't considered and so I try to engage on that and that is when people think I am fighting the advice. It's just me trying to deal with the questions I have and to understand things at a deeper level. I hope that makes sense.
Because there was a lot of thought into that post. It included almost entirely YOUR words, and how they might sound to others or make others feel...
I am trying to work on getting the point I want across in a better way. I have always been blunt and that can come across in so many different ways, so a little more tact might help I suppose.
My goal is certainly NOT to project - but to illustrate how a man who is highly successful professionally, very well educated, and in top shape physically, can be so off putting to those around him, including his w and children.
How those same^^^ attributes & behaviors, when presented in certain ways, can lead others around to feel badly about themselves. To turn them off.
Sure, You can say "well that's on them!!"
but when it's your wife & loved ones, maybe that's not the way to approach this. Maybe there is something to learn...
I can honestly say that isn't true for me. How do I know this, because I have dealt with this before and at an early age. I learned how people felt judged and put off because of my personal choices of how to live even when I had no intention at all for that to be the case. I am stubborn, but I am teachable because I am aware of my bad traits too.
I am constantly in a position at work, with family and friends of giving guidance and advice on many different subjects. It's not something that I ask for or strive to do, but it happens none the less. I have to always be cognizant of how I conduct myself and the choices I make. One thing I really have going for me is the influence of great men and woman. Starting with my parents, aunt, uncles and grand parents and great grand parents. I have learned by watching them and listening too.
A big difference between my wife and I is that kind of influence in her life. Her father was her best character example to follow. As far as the rest of her family, not so much. Her mother, now, is a different person than when my wife was younger. Some of the things she told my wife about men my will make you really question a lot of things. It's down right disturbing at times and then it makes you wonder why she was sexually abused at a young age.
Like maybe a black & white approach to things is rigid, and maybe it is missing out on most of life, which I don't think is black and white.
I am the first one to admit that I do view some things as black and white, but it is very selective and I am aware of it. I see no wrong in doing that. That being said I never force those views on anyone else. For instance, I have never done drugs or even had a sip of alcohol in my life and I choose to not do it. That decision is very black and white for me. I can careless if you or anyone else wants to do it because it has no bearing what so ever on me and neither should my decision not to do it have any on you.
Like you, my h is a very health focused person, and sees himself as having high moral standards. As you describe yourself.
In MY Marriage, with MY H, I believe If h were faced with the truth that his wife and all 3 children felt judged & controlled by h in terms of exercise, eating habits and even the belief systems that varied from his, NOT because he demanded this of us overtly or openly ...
I'd bet a lot of money he would deny any role in this^^ if asked.
I hope that^^ sad but true vignette helps you in some way but the rest of this (below) is not at all related to my h, fyi.
I am not of the kind of person to deny things that are true even if I don't like it to be. Trust me when I say I face things about myself all the time that need to be worked on. Sometimes it takes a couple slaps to the head first before I realize it, but eventually it sinks in.
When you wrote that you have "high moral standards" it did not occur to you that most of us feel the same about ourselves. It is a rare person who outright says they have low morals. (Did you mean to say something else?)
When you say you accept others "just the same", and also say you believe your own wife "felt inferior" to you, you seem to see no connection between what you project and what your w felt.
It's as if you now think she really was inferior, not that you revealed it to her, or that you subconsciously feel owed.
As if She "should" stay with you b/c you are of high moral standards and she tried (but failed??) to meet those standards even though you "never asked her to"...
The very implication that you "love them the same" is there; = you are overlooking their shortcomings while pretending that you don't see them as such.
I did try to explain this is a post after this one, but I'll recap here again. That is not how I wanted that to come across. I was merely trying to explain maybe what my wife was seeing and not what I was thinking about myself. This is what I felt, putting two and two together, that maybe my wife thought this was about me. Besides that I think having high moral standards is not going to be the same for everyone and always different is some way.
My concern for you is that there is so little self awareness going on. You are asking those who agree with you - for more validation that this is all about her.
But Cali, why is your wife's behavior your main (exclusive) focus?
When you wrote that long post about yourself, it put a light on things you can work on in you.
I am very aware of what I did wrong in my marriage. In a nutshell I didn't give my wife the love and attention in the way she needed it and I failed to grasp that soon enough. This one thing here is the real issue and what I hear coming from her most.
Last note on projecting - here's a true example of something you can benefit from EVEN IF you are nothing like my h.
I'll say this. - Our youngest child bore the brunt of h's long absences as she was only 8 when they began. Off & on, he missed a great deal of her growing up. I'll spare you the details, but yeah, he was gone A LOT and it was by his choice (no matter how he wrapped it).
Today she and h have a terrible r. They are not close. But she's close to me and her siblings and her cousins, she has many deeply close friendships at college.
She is also being treated for depression at college, and it seems to be helpful, thank God.
To everyone who knows the family history, there is a connection between h's long absences from home, and her feelings of distance between them. Years ago, h admitted as much. For whatever reason, he now denies any such connection, and or sees d19 as damaged goods...
I'm not projecting that^^ onto You.
I'm saying anyone who cannot benefit from the similarities in stories here, is in the wrong place.
Your focus should Not be on your w.
It should be on how you got here, and your own long post about yourself - is a good starting place to begin the real journey in life, which is an inward one.
on my way out but wanted to urge one thing in ALL the communications to your w, regardless of whether it is you or your mom.
Stress the positives (well loved, lots in common, etc) and NOT what pain your w is causing anyone.
First off, it will NOT help your cause. It's blaming your w for inflicting pain
when at the very least you know your w has been in pain of her own.
2nd - Do you really want her to defend herself? (No, you don't - b/c that will mean she blames YOU) and it goes downhill from there instead of rebuilding.
It's not like your w impulsively ran off with the gardener, even if it you feel this is very sudden or irrational.
It makes sense to her, it's true, AND it was not totally new. When your tells her that she is "throwing it away" - well, that is just not going to help you.
Reminding her of the upsides & positives does not require more..., trust that she will KNOW it goes into the "loss" category...
3rd, if others are going to talk about your m, then YOU (& w) must control the message.
And keep it short...
BRIEF BFIEF BRIEF
like "yes we are having a martial challenge. No 3rd parties, no abuse and nothing very dramatic but yes, it's hard - and I/we appreciate your support. "
The end.
Anyone who presses for more, gets a repeat of the above ^^"press release" & possibly a pause & glare...then thank them for respecting your privacy. "Yeah it's a rough patch/struggle" but zero specifics, UNLESS THEY ARE ABOUT YOU.
Cali, you do not want others knowing the details of this private marital struggle. Or your wife's issues which are not yours to tell.
It hurts the marriage. And It's not loyal.
more later
25year this is all great advice and it is what I have been looking for!! Thank you, this gives me direction and helps a lot.
25year - By the way I am going to share this with my mother because I think she really needs this a lot more then I do. I really hope it will help her in how she views things. I told her all the time before when dealing with my wife to just be her friend and let her know that you love her and miss her and hope she is going well, but my mother is so compelled to get answers from my wife that she doesn't want to give.
25year - By the way I am going to share this with my mother because I think she really needs this a lot more then I do. sure. I do want to mention that you have written things here and I think 3 times people have not understood what you meant. I don't think I'm the only one, but if that's something that happened here, maybe writing things out is not your strongest communication tool.
I really hope it will help her in how she views things. I told her all the time before when dealing with my wife to just be her friend and let her know that you love her and miss her and hope she is going well, ^^ right
but my mother is so compelled to get answers from my wife that she doesn't want to give.
it will not help you. Your w will NOT slap her forehead and say "OMG good point! I'll come back now and all will be well. What was I thinking??"
More likely she will flee, if not physically then emotionally. You will get less contact, not more.
Your w seems to have a mission and you are not to go on it with her. You may have to release her to her task or you may get a chance to show your changes, but writing her another letter will not achieve that.
Your mother asking for answers that either your w does not want to give, or which are not fully known to your w OR that are changeable
is most likely to make her feel judged or cornered. Neither helps you.
IF the time comes that your w feels comfortable with your mom, she will tell her what is happening in her heart/head.
Not b/c she is asked for answers.
Hang in there, at least you have your mom's support. That's not always the case.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25year - I think the difference with writing my wife a letter is that she actually understands me and knows me personally so there would be less confusion as to what I am trying to say, but yes, I get your point.
So a few things have transpired since the last time. My mother has continued her dialog with my wife. Once I sent my mother your last post to read and I asked her back off this is what she sent my wife and how my wife responded to it.
MOTHER - "Actually, I'm going to rescind that request. I re-read what you said, and I realize that you really don't want or need any pressure from anyone. If you want to talk to me, feel free to call or text anytime. I'd really love to hear from you." (My mother also mentioned that we had visiting friends here and they were heading on a vacation soon too)
WIFE - "I hope you enjoy Rachelle and the kids:) and also your vacation. If you want to talk I'll talk:). I'm not sure what Cali has told you. I imagine quite a bit."
My mother is going to give it a few days and call and talk to her with the advice the you have given me in mind. Here is the one thing my wife has repeated to a number of people. That is "I don't know what Cali has told you". Why do think she keeps repeating this. Does she think I am over here bad mouthing her? The thing my mother will tell her because it's the truth is that I have defended her and her right for what she is doing and that I realize I was a big part of the problem.
After all the communication with my mother back and forth I decided to text my wife back very late last night. I figured she would be asleep and just get it in the morning, after all it was after 2am her time. To me the back and forth just feels odd, not on my part but on hers. Anyway here is what our short conversation went like.
WIFE - "How was the graduation?"
ME - "It was good, she was really happy! She would have loved to hear from you, it would mean a lot to her." (This was my first text and it was after 2am her time. It was also answering the question she asked a couple days prior, like you guys know I didn't feel like texting back and was on the fence if I was going to or not.)
Wife - "I will give her a call. I was just thinking of you. I need to sleep, but can't. It's almost 3am. "
ME - "I'm sorry I didn't mean to wake you."
Wife - "I'm up.....needing to sleep. Listening to music on Spotify. I may try to sleep soon."
ME - "It's 3am there. I know you have trouble with sleeping sometimes."
WIFE - "Yeah.....me mind is always racing and I get hyper. It's better than it used to be."
ME - "It would be nice for you to figure out a method to help you get to sleep."
WIFE - "Yeah....that doesn't involve pills. I took a valium for my back today and it was then that I realize that my mind isn't normal....the speed of it....but it's my normal...so much happening all at once....so many thoughts.....too many observations. It was nice to slow down and also not be in pain. The effects lasted for maybe 30 minutes. I see why/how I'm so different."
ME - "The valium slowed your mind down?"
At this time it was about 10 minutes passed before that last text I sent and I didn't hear from her again. Then about 5:45am my time I get a text from her.
WIFE - "It relaxes you. I fell asleep."
I respond about 7 hours later.
ME - "Yeah I know well. I knew you were sleeping."
WIFE - "Not sure what you mean by that first sentence but yeah. I didn't know I was going to fall asleep that fast."
ME - "Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to say I know you well. You knocked off pretty fast."
About 7 hours pass before she responds and it is now past midnight there.
WIFE - "I didn't think I was tired and then poof, I was out."
I have yet to answer her, but I just feel the texting is pointless in a way. Why does she say that she was just thinking of me? Why does she keep this pointless conversation going? I just don't get the why. How do you think I am doing in my text responses? Could I do a little more or just keep going like I am? By the way there are still no divorce papers in the mail.
Is it a good idea if my mom does call her and talk to my wife. I told my mom to be very validating and just caring. My mom said that she was going to let my wife do all the talking, but I certainly don't want, like you said, for this to backfire. Although, it seems to be doing just fine right now. I will tell my mom to keep it short too.
OK so this just happened. I'm not sure what to think about it or how will affect my wife. 25year the quoted message from you below was sent to my mother and my wife. Of course it wasn't meant to be sent to my wife, but because I used to email my mother and my wife all the time with my itinerary for travel my email selected them both and I didn't notice it. I was very tired when I sent the email to my mother last night, so again below is what my wife also got.
Below is the response that I got when I posted up about you wanting to have a phone conversation with her. This is before knowing how she responded to you today and said she would talk.(This was the header I had on the email)
"it will not help you. Your w will NOT slap her forehead and say "OMG good point! I'll come back now and all will be well. What was I thinking??"
More likely she will flee, if not physically then emotionally. You will get less contact, not more.
Your w seems to have a mission and you are not to go on it with her. You may have to release her to her task or you may get a chance to show your changes, but writing her another letter will not achieve that.
Your mother asking for answers that either your w does not want to give, or which are not fully known to your w OR that are changeable
is most likely to make her feel judged or cornered. Neither helps you.
IF the time comes that your w feels comfortable with your mom, she will tell her what is happening in her heart/head.
Not b/c she is asked for answers.
Hang in there, at least you have your mom's support. That's not always the case."
Anyway I my wife wakes me up early this morning with a text message about 6am and tells me that she got an email from me and asked if I meant to send it to her. I'll share how the text messages went below.
WIFE- I just saw an email from you. Did you mean to send that to me? It had your mom as the first person you sent it to.
ME- No I didn't I'm not sure how you got on that, sorry.
Wife- It was sent to me also. I did read it. Sorry if I woke you.
ME- I have no idea how it was sent to you.
WIFE- Oh well. It's no big deal. It was sent....that's all I mean. Going back to sleep? (If you were asleep)
ME- Probably not now.
WIFE- Sorry for waking you. I was hoping you wouldn't wake up and would see the texts when you got up.
ME- It's OK, I'm really awake now. I'll see if I can fall back asleep, but probably not. My heart is racing. Kind of like you I suppose. Get hyper and can't sleep.
WIFE- Awwwwww that stinks. I hate that feeling. Usually my mind races with that too.
ME- Yeah I know, my mind is going as well. I always wish I could help you get better sleep or at least get to sleep faster.
From there on out the texts are just talking about reading, writing and sleeping. Has anyone ever had this happen and how did it affect things? How do I judge my wife's reaction to it. I am surprised that my wife even mentioned it. I would have thought she would just keep it to herself.
I told my mother about it and I also told my mother when she talks to my wife to let her know I sent that because I was concerned my mom was putting to much pressure on her and I didn't want her to make things worse. I also told my mom that if my wife asks she can tell her I'm getting counseling. I really wish that didn't happen, but my wifes reaction to it didn't seem like she cared or even wanted to know what it was about and she was very talkative after. What would be my recommended step after this. Should I detach even more from my wife or actually try to keep the communication up more? There is nothing I can do about it now because the damage has been done. You live and you learn.
I haven't talked to my wife since Friday morning when I had that mishap with the email up above. My mother said she tried to call her the other day, but she didn't answer and she hasn't called my mother back yet either. Anyway I decided to send a text to my wife and I keep getting the same kind of response from her a lot lately, well at least with the few texts.
ME - Hi
WIFE - Hi. I was thinking about you most of last night..... You're up early
Every time she has told me that she was thinking of me I just ignored it and went on with texting, but she has been saying it a lot lately, so I thought I would reciprocate it this time. It just felt like I should.
ME - Yeah, I was thinking about you too.
WIFE - Not sleeping at all?
ME - It was hard for me to get to sleep, how about you? (this isn't really true, but I just went with it because it felt like a connection. I did not get the best sleep because I'm away for work and I was up too late and had to get up early.)
WIFE - Yeah......me too. It's almost just after 5 am now.... Did you sleep at all?
ME - It's no good.....not much
WIFE - Awwwwwww (and she sent a little crying emoji)
We went on texting each other for the next 4 hours and she actually was texting almost double of what I text her. I'm not sure how to take her behavior towards me. When talking texting her there is actually a better feeling then I had before. She seems more caring towards me for what ever reason. I have nothing to base that on other then it is a gut feeling and it seems to be that way. It makes me wonder though.
She told me she went to spend time with her brother and his girlfriend in Georgia. This is also where the dude who has been texting her a lot lives, although it's about 3 hours away from her brother. I am not 100% sure he lives there, but it's what it says on his Facebook page. I got to thinking that I wonder if she was visiting him too while she was there. I wonder if that was why I have been on her mind lately. She is thinking of finally sending the divorce papers so she can be free to be with this guy and maybe not feel guilty about it. Or it's also possible that she saw this guy and it made her think of me in a good light, but I guess that is just all trying to mind read. Haha!
Today I heard my wife talked to and opened up quite a bit to one of my real good friends wife and then just suddenly stopped texting her. I haven't talked to my friends wife yet, but I heard she thinks the sudden stop in texting her was because she was being too pro-marriage.
"