So your W wants to have sex with other men. And your not opposed to that? Does that mean that your willing to have an open marriage? It sounds as if you came off way too soft when she talked about having sex with other men. No woman wants a man soft enough to be cool with her sleeping with other people. Unless your going to be doing the same yourself in the MR. Sometimes the things WS asks for don't need to be respected. To me it sounds if W just wants to keep having sex with OM. While dating you as well. Not sure what your boundaries are, but it might be time to come up with some.
Sorry I'm choosing one issue, but I want to be sure I read it right.
She had a health issue and you focussed on the costs of addressing her medical problem, rather than immediate or best care? And that hurt her feelings?
What do you think now?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So I made some errors by telling a few close friends that I found out... I was so hurt by her cold reaction to me finding out. After I told them she came to me and for the first time in a while we talked for a few hours and fell asleep in the same bed. She mentioned why she went for this and how it felt and how there are many things that wouldn't work between them.
This morning she freaked out when she asked me if I had told anyone. I wanted to be truthful. She has been exhausted but has spend a bit of a time together. I showed her the sex starved marriage book as it seems our libidos never matched up...although we both wanted more sex but it just never clicked the right way. was it a priority for you?
She said last night that the OM actually helped her appreciate me more and almost make these past few weeks so much better with me. I have heard more people say this ^^than I ever expected. Esther Perel has a TED talk on this very topic you may wish to watch. It's pretty eye opening. And no, she's not promoting infidelity. -From the texts I also learned she likes that he is dominant in the bedroom which is something I wish she would have addressed with me. What she may have said to OM in a text means almost nothing about what she would want from you. Plus it hurts to read. Spare yourself the pain
and of course stop talking about it b/c when Other people are involved they tend to take positions and then your ego gets involved or you have to drop the friendships if they are not in agreement with you.
And Or your w will feel cornered into a divorce b/c otherwise, she was totally wrong and a $lut to have had an A, etc.
last but not least, when couples have real issues and THEN someone has an affair, as lousy and painful as it is, and believe me, I know
it's crucial too avoid only focussing on the A. Don't stop your personal growth, as it's the one upside to this in the short term. The other, possible upside is rebuilding.
See the video I mention, it's pretty eye opening. Couples can get past it, I've seen it.
-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Tread: well she framed it as she did tell me we were separating. She understands I didn't see it that way and she didn't follow steps but she wanted to date (including me) and she feels it would help her reconnect with me as she considers me a catch (mostly due to changes I have made the past month and in her interactions with OM and seeing who is available).
She has expressed that she is polyamorous and honestly I am not that possessive or insecure. What I don't think is a good idea is before we work on our foundation to see other people.
But OM mostly seems to provide friendship and someone that makes her laugh. She feels pressured and trapped and if I would tell her she cannot see him she would move out and date (including if I wanted to do that). I think her seeing consistency in my actions is more important and her being 'home' is important. She isn't quite there to be committed to save the marriage but she changed from I want counseling to help us end this to now saying: I want counseling to see if we can be saved.
Unless she is really playing. She has made a sincere effort and has done a lot of things to make my life easier (doing chores), making comments about what she needs to work on, saying things like what she would like to see changed in the home, giving me compliments, being kinder to me (she said by seeing me as friend/roommate she has gained empathy for me and has acted on that. She enjoyed going on a date (her suggestion) and loved that I asked her questions. She is just afraid it is going to disappear. So by being able to see OM she feels empowered.
Doing a 180 for me seems to have to be to show her the type of husband I can be rather than completely detach. But I have stopped saying ILY (she knows my desire to make it work but has said she isn't 100% there yet... there is years of hurt..) She felt I wasn't into sex (totally not true.. I was insecure about my performance but she has recently said how much she likes it). She feels I don't listen. She feels I don't compliment her and appreciate her. So detaching would be doing in my eyes the exact opposite I need to be doing (although I need to not follow her like a puppy dog).
She went on a date with OM and said she was thinking about me.
25yearsmlc: not quite. I was very worried about her health and brought her there but there was lack of information and the initial insurance bill was 34,000 and it wasn't going to get covered. So I freaked out when I saw the bill.
Also I told her I forgive her for the A. I accept her explanation that she thought she avoided hurting me. She sees that she forgot steps. What I am worried about is rebuilding with her while she also has a shiny new toy and if it makes it easier/harder. But I must have hit the jackpot as OM keeps saying she will come back to me. And I actually feel like I could be friends with him as there are some interesting similarities between us BUT he is also not reliable to hang out with (his work has him work insane hours and he is always busy). So he might make her laugh, he might know how to please her sexually, but he cannot provide a serious relationship. In some ways he is more neglectful than I was.
On Tuesday they might hang out and the plan was to watch a movie. Now if that is all a lie she is a great actress.
She'd make a great used car saleswoman. "Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does." She's got you wrapped around her little finger.
She'd make a great used car saleswoman. "Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does." She's got you wrapped around her little finger.
Perhaps. But she has said that before. She just hadn't acted on this until she could no longer hope for a better husband. She said that she was so done with me and just waiting for the right moment to leave until I changed. She got curious. Like she was cold and almost mean at times early on during this past month. But she was also openly depressed.
The polyamory makes it more complicated to heal because that needs to be communicated and negotiated. Honestly, I don't know how serious she is when she says these things as what she wants for the future. Our sex live was bland and non exciting. That is on my insecurity and failure to talk to her about it. But I have also shown a more wilder side when it comes to that. It feels she is also testing me. Remember, I have been fighting in wrong ways (saying mean things, threatening that she wouldn't get anything if we would break up/divorce, it was pure frustration on my part and I haven't really shown that side during the past month...but she is worried I am acting) and she has felt trapped. She had been talking to this guy for months before anything even happened (I know...because she doesn't drive and we work at the same place...when she started hanging out with him is when I noticed). She also wants to do her PhD in another state and has felt I wasn't serious about going with her. She also seems to clearly have felt I got complacent about my career. And truth is I had been worried about how we were doing for years myself. And that consumed my time. Instead of talking to her about it I remained silent.
She hasn't promised that it will work out and in fact has said it probably won't but she has changed what she is committed to doing (from leaving and only considering counseling to help ME cope her leaving to HER also thinking about if it can be saved. I suggested a therapist for today and she immediately said that the one I showed her seemed to only be an intern with little experience...if she is stalling that is possible but she stuck it out with me for years and by her wanting a more experienced therapist that only makes it potentially a better situation.) She had several opportunities to just end it. Her actions validate what she said. But I am not blind. Obviously I am working on trusting her again. But if I don't trust her I ruin every chance we have to make it work. If she is spending more and more time with him than that will be obvious because when she did I got suspicious. She started being slowly more intimate when she saw me make changes and had sex with me before I knew there was an affair. I just got suspicious about that behavior when I found out and asked her (which is one of those impulses I need to control) I have got to also trust my gut in this.
Yes I am not blind. But I am trying to follow the rules as much as possible with also doing the 180s to be a change from what I did in the past. But every time we hung out it has been initiated by her and there have been times when I said I am doing something else. That is when she got curious again. She said it was nice I was asking her questions during our date. She said we never did that. (We did rush into things and our age difference her being 20, me being 30 but HIGHLY inexperienced in terms of what a relationship needs to work and we got into a routine that led to complacency.)
Remember. She had been hurt for years and I have only begun to address some of these problems authentically for a month. And when I discovered the affair it might have been a set back in our healing. I have also been not as solid in my approach because the affair had to be discussed and SHE brings it up a lot. SHE has been very open about it. So that is heavy and not always fun so since she doesn't have many friends to hang out with she is happy to go to a bar with him. He sends her constant dumb gifs and jokes. She says when she is with him he doesn't expect anything from her. And of course she knows I want US to work and she isn't quite there yet to fall back to that lovey-dovey marriage.
Am I completely okay with her seeing him? Not entirely, because I am worried that it will make her not work on it with me...and because he works so much and late hours...he offers kind of a mystery (but it has bugged her that she has to wait hours for him to show up and she said if I was dating him that would be the end of it but as a friend I accept it). But given the flaws I had that I am working on and the fact that I don't want her to feel pressured to make a choice (the begging, pleading and asking about where we stand, the saying ILY etc). If I need to trust only half of her actions...would it be possible that the nice ones are all fake? Maybe. Or that all the "I want to spend time with OM and do something fun" be fake. Or a little of both (probably, because she IS confused). I am not really off in my own little world all the time (my friends have said that, her friends have mentioned it), I have given her more compliments, I am not on my phone when we hang out (in fact she has done that for years and she realized she had begun to do what she blamed me), I have not been this insane crazy guy watching sports and yelling at tv (triggering her dad's emotional and physical abuse for when he did that and got violent), I am suddenly showing an interest in cooking and not giving into me fear and anxiety. She has said things she need to work on (so don't believe that right?) but when she follows up on those things (believe half of her actions) than I cannot help but trust the process. Unless she is acting and IS AWARE of the rules posted on this forum and is manipulating me. I don't think she is. She is no longer in her bedroom with the door closed. She wants to increasingly spend more time. But she also says she cannot go from 0 to 100. And that's wise. Everything that has been happening is discussed in Michele's work.
Finally, she had told OM that we were completely done. She was sick in her stomach when we were in the same house (that was painful to read and of course I was emotional when I told her about feeling that way). He had said it was okay that she would be intimate with me and that she would probably get back with me. He had been very much acting like her friend and doesn't force her to do anything. Now she lied about it when I asked if there was someone else (don't believe her words) but her actions also validated guilt (she was sad, she was depressed, she felt guilty). She had created this evil image of me. But she also slowly acted more intimate and caring towards me. So she also told me that she doesn't just want to leave him hanging because he was there for her before anything physical even happened. She has been very open about what they talk about. She doesn't show me the messages but again it's the actions that show something possible.
One final example before I stop this novel... (sorry I write a lot... but it also helps me process). She had always wanted to get annual passes for a park and on Friday she shared the link so I said let's do it. She then said she doesn't want to rush into that because she is worried I will bring it up in the next fight. And how she doesn't know if right now we should add this. But in the past I did blame her for the things I told her outside of fights I do because I care for her. So I caused hurt which led to resentment/anger. I cannot take that away from her other than through my actions. Right? She also is finally hearing from me that perhaps ADD did play a role (I was anxious often and followed my first impulse...but I denied that it played a role when she asked. She doesn't just automatically now want to believe that when I say that it was my ADD after all..or it might.). I was also worried about not being able to surprise her whereas she wanted to be surprised.
What's for sure is that I need to be way more patient. I can be patient if I know there is not someone else involved. I make critical errors with the knowledge there is someone else involved.
Yes, it's a difficult minefield to navigate. For myself, I know that I shouldn't have believed my wife's spew (i.e., listen, but don't believe it) and I should've put more effort into GAL (along with my sons).
- impulsive reactions. When she was talking about OM. I said it sounds like I am your gay best friend and laughed. She felt it was passive aggressive. I moved beyond just being focused on what I need to do and said how I am also trying not to get hurt again. And it kind of went from there. She was almost immediately explosive and angry and I stayed calm but I should have just let it go. Instead I tried to explain what I said...I even brought up how something she did years ago hurt me and that wasn't the time.
- expecting her to reconnect with me even though she kept telling me "I can see being friends with OM if we got back together", "I think we are in a good place and I am for the first time in a while thinking about that maybe it can be worked out". Instead one of the things she said: I should have known this would happen and that the honeymoon phase from last week would be short lived.
- ignoring that to address problems with us we need a counselor which she was willing to do. Instead, I got greedy and tried to push it. But I also was having a hard time staying calm with her lack of apologizing for what she did. She feels justified and I can understand why she felt that way due to what I did but it still hurts. But truth is if I would have LISTENED to her I would have heard regret and remorse and her just trying to be a good friend to this guy. (although there is this nagging voice in my head that due to his unreliable work schedule and the fact they can only hang out later at night that this is why she isn't with him more...but that is NOT what I need to focus on.)
Later that evening we did hung out, after she said she needed to be alone it was her who reached out with a (harmless topic) text and this morning she gave me a hug but I can see she is putting walls back up. But I take the hug as her either playing with me OR realizing that I am hurt too and I am giving it a sincere effort.
I just need to keep working on myself and my impulsivity is a MAJOR turn off but the OM is mostly causing that. I can have all the patience but I am also worried because she said how the last time she had sex with OM that she didn't think it would be the last time but one of many more to come. So she is trying to not hurt either one of us.
I hope I am not back at square one but I knew this would take time. It was just nice hearing her warm up to me which she hadn't really done in a few years consistently, laughing with her, doing fun things with her, yes I desire her sexually but I haven't really pushed that either although I did compliment her since that is one of the 180s I need to do. But I need to remain calm when I know she is doing something else.
I tell her I forgive her for what happened but I need to not push her apologizing to me and more importantly forgiving ME. I desperately need that and it is making me weak and not confident. And that makes me less attractive.
A major question I keep having is IF meeting OM in person sealed the deal for my wife or if she really didn't want to start anything new before actually wanting to leave.
Based on our conversations it appears that after we had a major fight she turned a switch (the fight was about how I felt she was bullying me and being mean to me.) I drove off angrily and she went to eat dinner alone. Two days later she said she needs time for herself and is going out. Because I would always contact her and I wanted to respect her space I didn't contact her. Turns out they went to meet in person and according to W she wanted to see that by seeing him all feelings would disappear. Instead she got curious. She said he was doing all the things I seemed to not care for: paying attention to her, asking how she is doing. During a recent trip she thought I didn't miss her because I didn't ask how she was doing. In fact I was missing her but for some reason I just never told her that. Before the trip she wanted to have sex and I was tired and worried it wouldn't "function" and I didn't want her to be upset about that when I would be gone for over half a week. I wonder if that moment sealed the deal for her.
When she left a week later at 11pm and didn't come back until 3am right when we needed to go somewhere at 7am and then drive for a concert it turns out she went to a hotel with him. She got colder towards me and didn't want to do anything with me. When she encouraged me to go on a trip it turns out she invited him over and they had sex in our home. She wanted him to come over other days but his schedule wouldn't allow it. She described me returning as making her sick in her stomach (text I saw between them). Last week she said for the first time thinking about the future with me isn't making her sick anymore...but she isn't quite there. She is worried I fall back (and that's why my behavior yesterday was so dumb when I should have just been happy with the progress...but reading the threads on here about how to do things different when there is cheating involved I got conflicted). But when I got back from the second trip she was acting very depressed and emotional and needed my affection. We had sex the day before I found out. She said it shows how she was getting back to thinking about me...but yesterday she also said she feels guilty towards OM how she dragged him into this and that how the last time they had sex she didn't feel it would be the last time and how there would be many more to come. Between saying those things she also mentions seeing a possible future with me and seeing him just as a friend. So it's all so conflicting...That's when I lost my cool and patience. Healing after an affair is already tough...but when it's still ongoing...at least emotionally?
After I found out we have been closer than maybe ever...but obviously I can get impatient (and that is where everyone on here talks about don't call victory too soon). But she keeps telling me that we had problems long before she had an affair (that she doesn't consider an affair because she said she wanted to separate). I acknowledge that and I forgive her for what happened but that it's the current phase that is painful and challenging for me. That I am trusting her. Yet I know she isn't completely over this OM. Nothing sexual has happened (mostly because his schedule I think...) since I found out.
So maybe she is right and she should move out while we figure things out. But it makes me worried I would even have less of a chance of controlling my emotions (and perhaps that is why she does need to move out so I can work on that). But she has liked seeing me lately she said. It makes her feel like there is a future possible. But I know I cannot believe everything she says, yet her actions do back some of that up.
It almost seems that she has more of a struggle forgiving herself for how she made me feel. And she feels guilty towards OM. That will take time. Only a week ago she was disgusted by the feeling of being with me. She CLAIMS she is over it but maybe she has never stopped feeling that way. God, we need a counselor...
My plan is to get back to my approach of GAL and not spending time with her whenever she wants to. To give her space. She did say she feels she has to explain what she does and says with OM and that I seem focused on her phone buzzing with texts. And that she hasn't had time for herself to rest and focused on making sure me and OM are okay. Until she says something more concrete about what she did wrong it's not my place to get her to that point. I can only show her my changes and focus on what I need to do.
(But I cannot stop thinking that I kind wish OM would just stop reaching out to her. My W. doesn't make friends easily and so I do feel guilty about wanting her to stop spending so much time with him. And of course she sees through me since I say it's okay that she spends time with him. And as friends I am totally fine with it...but anything potentially sexual? Not until we have worked on us...if polyamory is a possibility that is something for later...)
