When Do MLC-LBS Officially Give Up?

[Coly23]

Hey Gump, just stopping by to say hi from the world of MLC. I don't have much to add on the giving up/no longer standing as I'm not there yet. We just keep moving forward...

[25yearsmlc]

When do people left behind by MLC spouses give up? I'm sure it varies from person to person, and situation to situation. But is there any discernible pattern? Is there some milestone event after which LBS's give up, typically? Do LBS's tend to hang in there as long as they remain married, but give up when the MLC-er divorces them? Or do most LBS's hang in there long past the divorce?

I know, I know... you DB for yourself, and you DB forever for life but ... there's got to be a point at which you abandon all hope, and just stop caring.

Interesting question.

I'm pondering it. I'll throw out some thoughts but I'm just spit balling, okay?

I would think if the WAS does things that are so deeply disturbing to the LBSer, some action

or public humiliation or damage to the kids,

whatever that might be, or however it might look,

there probably is a point of no return. I think we know what the point of no return is, in advance, but it can change.

Maybe we think that an Affair or financial gaff, would for sure end the marriage. Sometimes we decide that we were wrong to draw a line there.

Regardless, there IS a point somewhere, in every healthy LBSer, and it causes a change within the LBSer at that point.

That change is when they/we know that the marriage really is irretrievable.

UNhealthy LBS can get and remain so depressed or are so needy or their ego is so damaged that they just want the WAS back, no matter what, and they might never give up.

For them, the divorce becomes the defining event of their lives. They consider "standing" for their marriage to be effectively, standing still. They greatly fear change.

But for healthy "recovered" LBS folks, who give up - some might feel
their former spouse has too much baggage for them, the LBS to get past

And the WAS plays a role there too. Because even if the WAS wants to return,

AND gets past their pride enough to tell the LBS, AND even if the LBS isn't being punitive, (and many LBS are punitive under the guise of "boundaries")

the LBS might still feel it's just too late. They changed, they moved on too far to return to where they once were...

AND OR the work for the WAS is just too much for them to do even if they want to. They remain unable to become transparent or giving enough, and though they regret leaving the m, they are unable or unwilling to do what they need to do, in order for the LBS to take them back and let go of the ordeal the WAS put them through...OR the LBS has not owned their own role and when they WAS wants to return to a better m, one or both of them realizes that it's not achievable. Then the LBSer becomes the WAS or the unwilling party.

Or maybe something in the LBS has died...and the LBS realizes the WAS isn't someone they are interested in anymore. They cannot go back in time.

Or they see their former marriage more accurately and realize that although they hated being the rejected party, in reality, they were not treated well for some amount of time in the m.

One insight I now have for LBS is that they frequently ruminate about the marriage they think they lost.

And they imagine their lost option to divorce, was "being happily married to WAS."

but that's not often the realistic option.

Often, the realistic alternative to divorce is a mediocre marriage to their WAS

or a damaged, painful marriage. They hold onto the marriage they once had early on,

OR always fantasized their marriage would someday be...and that's not really the alternative they were presented with.

When you realize that the options you had were the divorce that your spouse forced upon you

OR staying married and unhappy, wishing the WAS would become who we needed them to become, but likely never be...then divorce isn't quite the nightmare we fear it is, considering the alternative.

Does that make sense?

FTR, the estimates of remarriage for former spouses, ranges from 6% ti 15%, depending on which source you use. I have 2 family members who did, so I tend to think it's higher than 6%. My point is that I in their cases, my family members don't seem to have been waiting. They seem to have moved on, and yet...they reconciled.

What do you think?

[OwnIt]

Wow 25yearsmlc, what great insight. I'm new here, posted on the Newcomer. Totally confused about what is going on with my guy (NPD, MLC, both, just PA, something??) but been in it a long time. Feeling like I want it to be over but don't see my way to the end. Mine is very passive-aggressive and rages and disappears at the slightest things. I have zero ability to talk to him. I just avoid dealing with him altogether and only respond when he contacts me and even then only when he is nice. He is sending mixed messages through FB and unanswered texts to the kids. My status quo isn't terrible but the feeling that I have no control over my own life is intolerable. I think if he knows I am ready to end it, he will stall me to the end of time and I will be in a very expensive divorce (I'm a lawyer, he's a doctor) that will get very ugly (he's done bad, bad things that would be humiliating for him). I've been sadder the last two days than I have in a long time because I think I'm accepting that I am done, but feeling trapped. I want to be done but just let it dribble to a conclusion, but my brain doesn't let me. Advice?

[25yearsmlc]

I'll post more soon

but meant to say I do NOT think we know in advance what our point of no return is.

We may believe we know, but as I said, that often changes...

anyhow, let me get to your post

[25yearsmlc]

Wow 25yearsmlc, what great insight. I'm new here, posted on the Newcomer. Totally confused about what is going on with my guy (NPD, MLC, both, just PA, something??) but been in it a long time. Feeling like I want it to be over but don't see my way to the end.

so, what parts of the post about when is it over, resonated with you the most, tonight?

I imagine you are somewhere on this page...??


Mine is very passive-aggressive and rages and disappears at the slightest things. I have zero ability to talk to him.

well, if you KNEW that he'd always be this^^ way, how would you feel about your situation?

Are there a lot of reasons to expect or believe he's Not as he seems and acts? is he somewhat consistent in the passive aggressive and raging? And how does it feel not to be able to talk to him?

What is the REAL alternative to divorce, if it's not a "great happy marriage" that you once had OR that you wish you could have someday? In other words,

is the real alternative to divorce a shaky marriage in which you are never really sure he's in the marriage with both feet? Or worse?

If so, how would that feel to know, now?

See, even if reconciliation is what your heart desires, seems as if it's not the kind you could trust IF it happened tonight? Wouldn't it feel more real if you saw him changing and learning and evolving, which would take TIME?


I just avoid dealing with him altogether and only respond when he contacts me and even then only when he is nice. He is sending mixed messages through FB and unanswered texts to the kids. My status quo isn't terrible but the feeling that I have no control over my own life is intolerable.

why do you feel you have no control over your life? I know what limbo is like. But we can choose to end limbo OR choose a deadline for ending it. That is within your control. Sometimes just knowing that we have that power, is enough to feel more at ease.

I'm not clear on how mixed the messages are. Sending messages to the kids is not the same as wanting to remain married OR being willing to do the work.


I think if he knows I am ready to end it, he will stall me to the end of time and I will be in a very expensive divorce (I'm a lawyer, he's a doctor) that will get very ugly (he's done bad, bad things that would be humiliating for him).

Interesting, as I'm a L and h is an MD. So, Must you expose the bad things for the d? I would think it's not in your interest to harm his income. Anyway, I suggest hiring a L who specializes in MD practices - to protect yourself b/c many L's just assume the assets are in the bank, not the practice, etc.

Most MDs are seen as good guys, and their work affirms that. (It's not quite the same for lawyers, as you may know )

But that tends to make them avoid people who don't admire them, or who interfere with their self image.

Anyhow, is there an advantage to him NOT believing you'll end it? I'm not suggesting either way, just asking.


I've been sadder the last two days than I have in a long time because I think I'm accepting that I am done, but feeling trapped.


Meaning? If you are done, is there no freedom in that?

OR are you saying that since you think now it's done - so you are mourning the loss of hope?
Ugh...that's rough

I want to be done but just let it dribble to a conclusion, but my brain doesn't let me. Advice?

I Need more info.

Can you check the questions above and ponder?

[OwnIt]

I am not sure of the etiquette about posting on someone else's link. Apologies if I am violating, I think this is the link to mine if it makes more sense to respond there:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734655#Post2734655.


When my H had an emotional affair when he was away during residency I told him if he had a PA I would be gone. I didn't go in Jan 2016 when I discovered that. He came back briefly and I told him if he left again he wouldn't be welcome back. Since then (October 2016) I've been looking for all the signs he's coming back.

When he left in Oct. 2016 he virtually abandoned our children. This is a guy who was at least outwardly a decent father who at least financially supported his children's very expensive and unconventional activities. In retrospect, he was checked out a long time and I was the link between him and the kids.

I think he broke up more permanently with the OW around Xmas because he got his own place. He has made references to being alone (specifically in response to a request that he stop villifying me, he said he had no one to villify me to). Suddenly since January his behavior has changed. He texts the kids for a while and as soon as they see him he stops. Then he vanishes again. Then a while later he starts texting them again. If they don't respond, he texts me. I make them see him. He comes around a while and then vanishes again.

He does some kind of temp check with me weekly. Sometimes shifty like moving money so I have to respond, a formal email that looks like he might use it in court (which he knows will make me respond), sometimes asks to see the kids, or asks about something they are up to.

Saturday he posted a poem about Odysseus and the longing of a father and husband to return home. He loves the classics. He knows well how that turned out. In November he posted a quote and specifically changed the word spouse to friend, so this is a change.

These are the mixed messages.

I am terrible at boundaries, as I've just established. But the way he is treating the children is unforgiveable. He has been texting them sweet texts twice a day for the last week. Suddenly they are personal and targeted to that kid. Not a generic group text to the two that was all he could manage previously. My son is very emotional. He has gone from straight As to a kid who doesn't turn in homework and lies. My daughter failed a class last term and is a graduating senior and still having trouble doing work.

Neither of them wants anything to do with him (or so they claim), but the moment he shows up and gives them attention, they eat it up and like me start to believe that he has changed. Then he vanishes again and I pick up the pieces as best I can.

I was always his rock. Supported the family for 20+ years while he was a teacher then went to med school, etc. The EA was when he had to go away for residency. Discovered in the Ashley Madison thing he had an unpaid account from years earlier. Then found out about the long term PA in January 2016 (had completely devalued me and was being horrific and I finally got him to confess and he asked for divorce). He is more secretive than anyone you can imagine, he lies constantly, he has been trolling dating sites until all hours of the night (I had a fake profile he winked at around Xmas so I can find out in a second when he has been on even though he has gone low profile), I know he cheated on the OW right after he moved out from some CL ads that I found out about from his phone bill. There are more bad acts but I cannot reveal them for legal reasons. Now he doesn't seem to want a divorce or won't raise the topic. My lawyer and IC who specializes in narcissistic abuse have advised me to sit tight until he wants it. The docs are ready to go when he asks for them.

He was a good husband (not a great one) until about 7 years ago. Since then he has been a liar, a rager, a cheater, and emotionally absent. I do not want that guy back--EVER. If he is NPD he will never change. If he is MLC it sounds like he might.

He now comes to the house (which he wouldn't do in the beginning). Sometimes looks me in the eye. Sometimes texts me like a normal human being about kid stuff. Seems to be experiencing some level of self awareness from his FB postings. Seems more checked into the kids (at least intermittently).

I've told him he can see the kids whenever he wants. All he has to do is tell me when so I can make sure they are here. He keeps texting them knowing they won't respond instead of just asking me for a time.

Last Wednesday (my last communication with him) I tried to call him because he was texting our daughter like crazy wanting to take her driving (she is a learner and this seems to be one thing HE actually enjoys doing with her). I called him to tell him she had oral surgery the day before and was on painkillers (and was really behind in school from her college auditions). He saw that I called and texted me saying that she wasn't responding and would she be available that afternoon. I responded and said "not in a good place. I tried to call to discuss but you didn't answer." He responded with "Yes, because I was in a meeting and not with my phone (I know he was off work). Let's drop the passive-aggressive accusations and focus on the problem at hand. I have one early morning meeting tomorrow and can head to ___. Will you have her ready to go by 10:00-10:30ish." I responded with "Wow." I wanted to let him know I thought he was over the top without getting into a big thing. This is typical of our interactions. In retrospect I think he thought I was blaming him for her troubles and giving him crap for not answering--I wasn't. I was just trying to let him know that I had tried calling in response to her not responding to him and his request. He takes every little thing I say and twists it in the most heinous way. Two weeks before that he was sending me nice texts throught the day about her audition and our trip. Then suddenly he stopped responding to me for two weeks until that exchange last Weds.

How can I deal with someone who sends mixed messages to me and the kids and then vanishes or rages when things start feeling too close for comfort. He told me in December that we were over and that I should look to him for nothing but child support and the occassional child care.

I cannot and will not live with someone who lies to me, cheats on me, rages at me, emotionally withholds from me, and dips in and out of the family at his own will.

If the guy he is now is the guy he is going to be, I am never going back. I am financially secure, kids are getting older, have a nice house, some friends nearby. Him not being in my life would be acceptable. BUT . . . he can use the kids as an excuse to continue hoovering/temp checking whatever it is for as long as they are in my care. He can screw with me until my alimony runs out (if he actually signs the separation contract he has agreed to in principle).

Because I see/hear from him so little, I could probably sit in limbo and give it more time IF I could stop feeling like I am letting him control the outcome with no say from me. Right now everything is on his terms. He decides when he contacts us and when he doesn't, when he comes over, whether he uses our bank account or the "allowance" he takes every month to his new separate checking/credit card account. He spews, projects, devalues, and withholds.

I have been very careful not to embarass him, out him, nothing. I stopped using FB, haven't posted anything about our separation or problems. Only my closest friends and family know. I do not want to jeapardize either his job (which is very well-paid and a good fit for him) or his career I have the power to do both, but that would be bad for my kids and being vindictive is not my thing.

Whatever it is, I think the guys is sick and confused. I don't believe he is in his right mind. I just don't know if he will come out of it and if there will be anything worthwhile for me and the kids if he does. I'm 47 (as is he). We were each other's first serious bf/gf. I've never broken up with anyone in my life. I don't know any other life. We grew up together. We accomplished many things. Our children are exceptionally talented and really great kids.

I feel trapped because in playing the big chess game of life all I see are the bad moves and worse outcomes. I don't want us to lose everything we have worked so hard for. This man I am dealing with is not the one I married.

I don't know why, but I love him despite the horrible things he has done. I worry for him and about him. I don't want the kids to continue to be fatherless. I don't want him to throw away his relationships with his kids/grandkids. I don't want him to commit suicide or lose his job or career when the depression hits (and I see it coming big time).

[LouR]

Hi ForGump,

Like many have written, letting go of hope is a personal choice and I feel it happens slowly, you move along with your own life and grow in yourself, with that comes peace inside and how you feel about your MLC'er.

Despite a Touch n Go from my h late last year that really shattered my heart all over again, if I am honest I still hold out a teeny bit of hope that one day he may wake up from this time in his life and fight to get me back; fantasy... maybe, but no matter how much I get angry, feel hurt, sadness and the loss of him, I know that somewhere deep down I would be open to him again if the situation should arise.

I am not ready to close the door on my h completely, but I have become open to the possibility of a new relationship and have also become ok with a life alone if that should be the case. I try to live in the present and see what tomorrow brings, open to change and new experiences.

I think you dont realize you have shut the door until its already shut. If you ask yourself the question "should I shut the door" then you are not ready to do so.

Great Question

[CT1118]

FGump,

My brother is arms. Two pages and some great discussion for the ages here. I see you you got HJk'ed a little bit, but the value of the read was worth it.

When do people left behind by MLC spouses give up?

I am trusting we have known each other deeply and long enough for you to already know whom I will quote from my first day here:

I think it is too late when they put you in a box and pile dirt on you.
Until then you have a chance.

That said, I have never taken this to mean we hold on to the point of our own detriment. But still, its like this three years later for LouR above:

...if I am honest I still hold out a teeny bit of hope that one day he may wake up from this time in his life and fight to get me back; fantasy... maybe, but no matter how much I get angry, feel hurt, sadness and the loss of him, I know that somewhere deep down I would be open to him again if the situation should arise.

My story is not updated yet and I have been gone for almost two months. In short, my M is but a notary public signature and some court time away. I said what I had to, I have let her be, I have achieved comfort in being with just me, and while I am much, much too busy for my desire, I am in a great place with self - which is the goal after all.

That said, I am still quite in love with her, for me, that does not feel like it goes away - but it does move on. It can move on without her...and I am cool with that. I am even cool with the idea that one day it can feel like it goes away, even if it hasn't yet; but I am done wishing it would. There are still difficult days, but I am accepting things that I would not have just months ago, which is great. The universe is abundant and I have already seen where I am open to others. However, the best gift of my effort, I am open to self, I am right with me. Still got work to do, but have come this far.

This does not have to mean a door locks shut and it does not have to mean a door remains wide open. It does not even have to mean a f'king proverbial door exists. Its my god damn door. Its your door as well.

I know, I know... you DB for yourself, and you DB forever for life but ... there's got to be a point at which you abandon all hope, and just stop caring.

Contradiction sir! If you DB for yourself, why must there be a point where you abandon all hope and stop caring? You are in the MLC board now. Thus, today is the day to watch her self become silhouette, her self to become shadow, her self no longer shade; today is the day for your self to become synergy with your self. I noticed Mach1 commented on you and I do hope he (and others) provides you with the brutal, yet loving kindness of honesty, that I received once I arrived here. Answer such posts. Stick with the MLC board and the time for rant is done. Shovel in hand, the grave of the old FG before you, dig down and hold some soil from the man you are made of in your hands.

I wish you sleep, among all else my friend.

[bttrfly]

The day our divorce was final, that was it for me. There was a major internal shift in that ... he had months to stop this, to try to fix our family, if not for himself or me then for our son. He did not choose to do so.

Many here say divorce is just a piece of paper.

Many continue to stand after that.

I am not one of them. In order for me to fully detach, I need to let go completely. I am no longer actively standing. I'm not sure exactly what I am doing in relation to my exh. I think at best I'm neutral. We have a function this evening at our son's school. To date we have continued to co-parent with only a few areas of disagreement, definitely brought on by the depression which is core to MLC.

I have no idea what's going on with exh. It is no longer my business. I'm focused exclusively on my son and my future since the divorce became final. As each week passes, that only strengthens.

Many MLCers have to "go the distance" and divorce their spouse before they can begin their own healing process.

[25yearsmlc]

The day our divorce was final, that was it for me. There was a major internal shift in that ... he had months to stop this, to try to fix our family, if not for himself or me then for our son. He did not choose to do so.

Many here say divorce is just a piece of paper.

Many continue to stand after that.

I understand this^^. I can only say that for some, months are barely a blip. I've had a few (4??) close friends change and be real jerks for a time, only to SLOWLY awaken to the damage they caused...in one case the h was too overwhelmed to face his family. Pride played a factor when he first left, but I'm not positive it remains.

After almost 2 years, he worked up the energy and bravery to start seeing his kids more regularly - maybe b/c they were young enough to just want any scraps he could give them, and he seems to be a decent father again, to 2/3 of his kids. He began a different life, lost his faith and changed his political opinions...his parents did not approve of his divorce, they loved his wife and still do, actually.

He once finally called and faced his wife. He gave her what I thought was a sincerely felt "OMG I get it, I blew it, and I'm so sorry" type of apology. But no, he didn't bother trying to reconcile. She was to marry later that month. Even so, I think he wanted to get it off his chest more than trying to change her mind.

Down deep, sure I think he wanted to reconcile (??). Either I'm wrong, or he couldn't muster up the energy to do the work she'd require to rebuild. OR maybe he thought she'd never get past it...IF there was a time machine, THEN that is what I think he'd have gotten into. Where he wouldn't have to make up for the harm, but could start fresh with the new insights. AND Wouldn't we all?

So yes It was tragic, I know. Still, he did recover some of relationships and 2/3 of the kids did get their dad back. That was a positive. Beats never getting him back...

And then the kids got a stepdad too (and a stepmother, who I can honestly say does not measure up to the woman he left...life is like that).

So, Does MLC H know his new wife isn't worth his first one?

Yes I would think so. Maybe what matters is what I know or what his first w knows...though I doubt she ponders it much.

He once told me he "cannot let THIS m fail" which sort of bothered me. How could he let the first m end, when he had children?? I believe that at some level, he knows that if he'd put the same energy into his first m that he is putting into his 2nd one, he'd still be married AND happy. Put it this way, I KNOW THAT IS TRUE, and it usually makes me sad.

The woman he left is affectionate and affirming. She is a nurse and is very nurturing. She could lose 10lbs. The woman he married, is not cold or affectionate or affirming. She's slim, earns a good living, and seems cold and insecure. She is very threatened by the first W, ironically.

For every increased paycheck his new wife brings home, he gets about 50 fewer hugs
and 100 fewer compliments and for sure, less intimacy all round. The woman he left laughs often and heartily. She thought he was hilarious.

His new wife has no art on the walls, and not a single thing on the refrigerator.

I can't explain the differences more, but I do feel sorry for him. His mother died suddenly and he was devastated. He called his first w, and they both cried hard.

In the obituary of his mother, the first w was named as "the lovely mother of her grandchildren, 1st W..." and I just found that to be so bittersweet. And kind. Who knows what his new wife felt or thought? Who cares?

Even though I feel badly for his first wife, she is the type of person to be inwardly content, regardless. She's kind and loving. Her relationships with her friends and family and children are all loving ones, and she genuinely enjoys her time with them.

So, Is ^^it fair? Gosh, i doubt it.

On the other hand, I'm a woman in a western nation where I can vote, drive and work. I'm a college grad. PLUS, I have 3 close friends right now who did nothing "wrong" but are facing major medical challenges, and a dear friend who lost her oldest son to an unknown heart defect. Last fall I became seriously ill out of nowhere. Less than half of the patients on my ward, ever leave...

Point is, I know life is not fair. And I am grateful life has been so good to me.
Sorry to be rambling.

Here's my final comment for now - in the above^^ scenario,

I guess the LBS wife gave up, OR she chose to move on. Is there a difference between giving up and moving on? I'm asking.

Maybe giving up feels more like "losing" and maybe moving on feels more like "winning"

or at least cutting our losses & doing damage control.

Maybe it's all how WE frame it. .



I am not one of them. In order for me to fully detach, I need to let go completely. I am no longer actively standing. I'm not sure exactly what I am doing in relation to my exh. I think at best I'm neutral. We have a function this evening at our son's school. To date we have continued to co-parent with only a few areas of disagreement, definitely brought on by the depression which is core to MLC.

I have no idea what's going on with exh. It is no longer my business. I'm focused exclusively on my son and my future since the divorce became final. As each week passes, that only strengthens.

How does this^^ feel to you?

Many MLCers have to "go the distance" and divorce their spouse before they can begin their own healing process.