I posted a long note to you on your last thread. I don't know how to link it here.
I hope you'll check it out.
Good luck
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Now, the real question that you need to sit down and answer is: why? Why are you fighting so hard to keep someone around that doesn't want to be there?
I'm not. That's the whole point of doing this is to come to a closure so that I can detach. Detachment is not about closure, or at least not directly. You are confusing the "moving on with no chance of a recon ever!", with detachment and closure. They are not the same.
Detachment lets you still love the WAS and have good memories, but not attach yourself or your happiness to the results.
Also, there are married couples who div and later remarry. I have 2 in my family and think it's about 15% of couples. But in the cases I know of, both spouses went on to personally grow. They all had ICs and all thought their m's were over. In one case it took 5 years for them to reconcile and I'm not sure they saw it coming.
I don't want to pay her what she wants. I don't want her to ask for more, either. Unless she is trying to make new law, just let the L's work that out. Detach from the results.
On top of this, I just want to make sure that she understands that I believe I can forgive her and we can get past it, NOT connected to the D settlement! It's as if you are trying to manipulate her financially, which you did inside the m, I might add, and it does not come off as love. Not to me.
Lying to hide assets might eliminate recon chances but simply advocating for yourself via a L, won't. At least not long term. It's how you behave and act that will matter most.
without using words like "forgiveness" to avoid forfeiting things legally if she tries to take advantage of my forgiveness, legally. That's why I talk of being able to rewind, instead.
What??
I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.
It's also nothing you need to share with her now.
Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)
That is not "forgiveness". If someone could link my post to him from his previous thread, here, I sure would appreciate it.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
she complained about me looking at porn, which I did do some of, but in the past she always would just say "well, I know that all guys do it..."
to me, that ^^ is her talking herself out of making it an issue - b/c you didn't want to stop. You didn't tell us what you said to her, or your reasons for the porn.
Am I to just know that my wife doesn't like something, if she acts like it's not a big deal every time it comes up? At least I was honest and told her that I did look at it. Look, I know now that it was bad most likely, and I would err on the side of caution and not view it while in a relationship. It probably greatly affected my ability to appreciate her, and affected my libido. She wanted sex a little bit more often than I did. I didn't know whether a man looking at porn a little bit while in a marriage or relationship was a harmful thing or not. I could even see it being helpful. You know? Do men have a need to have multiple partners? I don't know. Monogamy seems to be a societal construct that isn't natural. Maybe men need it, biologically. Porn allows them to kind of feel like they have it. It's just a maybe. I didn't know, and still don't. I told my wife the same thing. She didn't seem to have an opinion. It was only later, when she was going all out negative towards me, post-BD, that she decided it was a terrible thing. Well, she probably cheated on me physically, and that's probably why all of a sudden me looking at porn was a huge deal that she brought up several times. She was probably recording me, too, which might be why she would bring it up so much, especially when on the phone. (I know that my co-worker's wife with the same lawyer tried to record him all the time.) It wasn't that I didn't want to stop. I was never asked to stop, or even suggested that I should stop. I was only asked to keep it minimal enough that it didn't affect my libido to the point that we couldn't have sex successfully. And she was mostly happy with our sex life. Told me I was very good in bed. My reasons for looking were because I thought it was no harm, as long as it stayed in moderation. I thought our marriage was fine, and I have to wonder how harmful it was, because I did it throughout our relationship, from day one, and she stayed with me for ten years, and she knew about me looking at it very early on. I was honest with her about everything. I wouldn't chance it now. It could have been why I was losing appreciation for my wife and it certainly affected my desire to want to have sex more often. And it very likely made her feel less desired by me.
Her happiness was my goal. I thought she was happy. It's hard to be motivated to make someone happier when you think they are happy. I am well aware of the things I did wrong in the marriage, and everyone else here can tell you how much time I've spent blaming myself, as can my family. Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done. I have spent an inordinate amount of time reading my wife's letters outlining her complaints, reading books/websites/etc. about relationships and the differences between men and woman. That is something that I will continue to study, but I have learned a ton of things about. But right now, my issues are about improving myself. I'm not doing a very good job of that. I'm doing a terrible job of being positive and hopeful, especially in the morning.
You said some more things about stuff that I did in the relationship that were wrong. I know. It's terrible. I have learned, and am continuing to.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
We want to feel protected and loved by our spouses. In one survey wives stated that "security" is the number one priority they have for their m's.
We want to feel financially and physically secure. That means we need a h who is strong, physically and mentally. This is especially true if we want to bear their children.
Yeah, this scares me because I don't know whether I can ever be that strong for a woman. I thought I had found a woman that was fine with how I was, because she is a strong woman, but maybe once she got to where she was interested in having kids, she changed her mind. Such a shame. Well, I can work out to be stronger. I can try to be stronger mentally, but that's the hard part. I'm reading a book on dealing with fear right now. Is it my fault that she married a wimpy guy, and then decided later on that he wasn't good enough? In her defense, she hadn't yet seen all of my wimpiness, but she had seen most of it.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
To me these things to work on are kind of great news b/c the changes she wants in you could be so easily seen. And you want to make them, for you, correct?
I don't think she wants to see jack-squat in me, but maybe she does. She has indicated that she doesn't, but maybe that's kind of to make sure any changes I make are for me. I don't know. There's so much hatred in her towards me. I do want to make changes for me. I don't like the life I was living. I was rotting away on the computer. I put all my energy into one hobby and learning that one skill. I wasn't taking care of my body, which my brain needs, too. I wasn't taking care of my looks, which my wife and my self-esteem needs. I wasn't being more well-rounded, so that I was more interesting socially.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You cannot detach without GAL and you cannot make changes in yourself while you keep looking over your shoulder to check on what she is doing or seeing.
Very true.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Why would her affirming herself, hurt your feelings? DIG DEEPER.
When she was answering my compliments with "I agree", basically, it made me feel like she didn't value my compliments. Is that weird or something?
M: 33, W: 30 @BD M 7, T 10 BD: Early Dec W left: Late Dec W got stuff: Late Jan W sent S papers: Mid Feb OM cnfrmd: Late Feb
Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.
It's also nothing you need to share with her now.
Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)
That is not "forgiveness".
I was told by a lawyer and paralegal that I should probably stay away from talk of forgiveness until my wife and I had come to a separation agreement, I'm assuming because I would not be able to perhaps use evidence of an affair as any sort of bargaining chip, or be able to threaten a lawsuit, if I had said I had forgiven her. I would never forgive OM, though, of course, unless I just needed to, to let it go.
M: 33, W: 30 @BD M 7, T 10 BD: Early Dec W left: Late Dec W got stuff: Late Jan W sent S papers: Mid Feb OM cnfrmd: Late Feb
Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.
It's also nothing you need to share with her now.
Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)
That is not "forgiveness".
I was told by a lawyer and paralegal that I should probably stay away from talk of forgiveness until my wife and I had come to a separation agreement, I'm assuming because I would not be able to perhaps use evidence of an affair as any sort of bargaining chip, or be able to threaten a lawsuit, if I had said I had forgiven her. I would never forgive OM, though, of course, unless I just needed to, to let it go.
Let me try another way of saying this.
They are talking about condonation, which is only applicable if you reconciled AND later on, tried to use this present affair as grounds for divorce. The court would say "no, you cannot use the previous affair from the past, as present days grounds for divorcing..." (And btw, none of this matters in a no fault state. )
So even if A is grounds for div in your state, this relationship would not be usable against her, IF you reconciled and lived together.
Not really about forgiveness. I'm not sure what else you wanted to write in an email to her. Maybe you wanted to admit things that were not helpful or maybe they worried about that.
Moving on,
Re the Porn issue -- first, I don't mean to harp on porn itself. That is not actually the main point I'm trying to get through to you. It's the fact that it came up for you and your wife, repeatedly, yet you changed nothing. You still see her as the party at fault.
You wrote "Every time it came up, she'd say...well other men do it..." Means it came up more than once. And somehow you didn't pick up on that being important to her b/c she didn't call it a deal breaker and she didn't throw out the word "divorce" in your face.
What I hear you saying is that unless it's going to cost you big time, you won't give up on something "just for her happiness."
It's like saying " if she's actually going to leave me, well then maybe I'll make a change...and if she just wants me to give it up but won't leave me for continuing doing what hurts her, well, then I won't give it up"
Wish, can you see my point at all?
I feel as if you are defending yourself, instead of trying to see things in a new light.
How does that help you?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I'm sorry. I appreciate your thoughts, but statements like this seem to indicate you are very unfamiliar with my situation.
I will say one thing. My wife is a very assertive woman. She made no bones about letting me know what she thinks about a lot of things that I did or didn't do. She would have told me porn really bugged her if it did.
M: 33, W: 30 @BD M 7, T 10 BD: Early Dec W left: Late Dec W got stuff: Late Jan W sent S papers: Mid Feb OM cnfrmd: Late Feb
Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done.
How is 'keeping score' helping you?
She is going to do what she's going to do. I continue to recommend you keep your focus squarely on what YOU are doing. What if instead of one OM, it were seven. Does that make iwhat she's doing now even worse? Maybe. Does it change the work you have in front of you? Not really.
So lose the score pad and figure out what YOU need to do.
how am I to just know that my wife doesn't like something, if she acts like it's not a big deal every time it comes up?
as I said, the fact that it comes up more than once suffices...
At least I was honest and told her that I did look at it. it's a pretty low bar to say that not lying to your w is somehow a significant positive.
Look, I know now that it was bad most likely, in your m, it was positively bad. Not "most likely".
I mean, do you still doubt that? Add in the comments you made that made her feel bad about her appearance, and your low sex drive, (while she knew you were attracted to the porn women) and you created a bad combination for her ego & self image.
When women don't feel like our h's are attracted to us, it lowers our libido, and it's a big big deal. It's humiliating & it's shameful to us. I am not justifying your wife's affair, but you must see that feeling undesired , it makes us vulnerable to OMs.
and I would err on the side of caution and not view it while in a relationship. It probably greatly affected my ability to appreciate her, and affected my libido. She wanted sex a little bit more often than I did. I didn't know whether a man looking at porn a little bit while in a marriage or relationship was a harmful thing or not. She told you it was. And it affected your libido AND that hurt her too.
I could even see it being helpful. You know? But in YOUR M, it was not helpful. This isn't about porn, it's about porn in YOUR M.
Why do you resist just admitting this, in full? No one says it makes you evil. It just makes you honest about a mistake you chose to make.
Do men have a need to have multiple partners? I don't know. Monogamy seems to be a societal construct that isn't natural. Maybe men need it, biologically.
Really? Okay, you are getting way off track and just deflecting from any feedback that means you must DO or CHANGE something. Is this what happened during counseling when she said something bothered her? You said you "didn't know" or that "it shouldn't bother her" or that it was a "societal construct"?
Because there are societal constructs about men and our expectations of husbands, too. You dismiss those from what I can tell. I really want to help you, but I'm not sure I can.
Porn allows them to kind of feel like they have it. It's just a maybe. I didn't know, and still don't. I told my wife the same thing. She didn't seem to have an opinion. Oh she had an opinion.
It was only later, when she was going all out negative towards me, post-BD, that she decided it was a terrible thing. Well, she probably cheated on me physically, and that's more deflections and blame...no insights that require change on your end. Wsh, here's the thing.
IF YOU CANNOT OR WILL NOT CHANGE. THEN YOU ARE CHOOSING POWERLESSNESS...and you may as well give up now.
probably why all of a sudden me looking at porn was a huge deal that she brought up several times. She was probably recording me, too, which might be why she would bring it up so much, especially when on the phone. (I know that my co-worker's wife with the same lawyer tried to record him all the time.) What???
Absolutely none of this^^ is relevant. It's not about the porn! it's about your refusal to change anything or to listen to her, until she wanted out.
It wasn't that I didn't want to stop. I was never asked to stop, or even suggested that I should stop. SIGH...imo, when a wife brings up her h's Porn watching, AND is not openly enthusiastic about it, it's Not a good thing. Add in other factors like that she wanted more sex with you, but you did not meet her sex needs, in part b/c you met your own needs elsewhere...
Yes, you should have stopped it. If you somehow don't see that she wanted you to stop, then maybe your IC can help you spot emotions and beliefs in others better.
Wsh, you said you might fall in the autism spectrum somewhere. I have a brother with Aspergers, and I'm familiar with the challenges he faces. He tends not to pick up on social cues if they are emotion based.
He is married and they have a child. I know it's harder for him to know how she feels so his w makes an extra effort to verbalize her exact feelings. But he admits that he has Asperger's and he does make an effort to address it. (I hate to admit this, but I suspect that she'd have left him, otherwise. )
BTW, to some women, if their h's watch porn, they are cheating.
Maybe a good rule of thumb is that when married men watch porn in private or hide it, it would be unusual for it to "help" that marriage.
In fact, anything you hide from your spouse is probably corrosive to the m.
I was only asked to keep it minimal enough sure sounds like a "suggestion to stop", but maybe it's best not to belabor the point anymore.
--
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
