Actually I did my research on my own thread. These 2 updates really summaries my situation and what I have to do. Depression gets me talking but in a wrong way. It is something that really dorsn't get fixed and keeps me back from emotionally intelligent. I have hardly felt I balanced it. And that hurt my wife. All I can do is get back where I found relief suring the days we dated. A therapist helped me at that time. I just don't learn.
Though thanks to this forum and outsider feedback I see better. It just needs to go down for me to realise.
Thank you all
Thought
Update 1: about the only thing you have really told us about is your depression and her affair. If she will not agree to end the affair and work on the M, then what are your options? 1) Separate, 2)Keep things as they are now. You have been here since 2014, which is fine, however, you seem to be asking the same questions and not getting very far along.
From an outsider's point of view, it appears that your depression pretty much rules you life, and perhaps your W feels it ruled the MR, as well. If a person feels that they are constantly the underdog, then they either act accordingly or rebel against it. How much of your depression is low self-esteem? How often do you feel that you are the underdog at work and/or other places?
At this point, MPO is that you do what is necessary to get well. That needs to be your priority. If that means you have to move away from her, so be it. It may take a break between the two of you in order to be able to become better. Staying together in this environment is not helping you. She might be using the affair as her escape hatch from the reality at home..... but, I don't know. It does seem that something needs to change b/c the counseling is not solving any of the problems. Once you get away from her, you might be able to find the man you use to be, or become better. She would have her space and eventually she might be able to see you as a man she wants, instead of just seeing the depression.
As I have told you, I understand depression. I really do. I hope you will not see anything I've said as criticism. It is very sad to see anyone living the way you and your W are doing now. I hope that both of you can find happiness in the near future.
Update 2;
I had suggested to you many months ago to AVOID at all costs, any counseling. It doesn't work until there are clear and honest efforts by WAW to fix the M. Stop this as soon as you can. Counselor already gave both of you an ultimatum to decide by next session....something that doesn't need to be decided soon. And indeed forcing a decision now will only lead to a negative outcome.
But more important here is "she says I made her feel bad". Why would you do that? For your ego? Do you want her back or not? Who wants to be with someone who makes them feel bad?
If she reached out and invited you to something, even if you knew she had planned to go with someone else, why wouldn't you go? I mean, if YOU want to go. She reached out to you to crack the door open, and you jammed her fingers in the door.
Look. I'm not sure if you have thought your position out. And I'm not on the forums too much. So I'll just try to summarize what worked for me, and I was in almost the exact situation as you....
You need to be the fun one. YOU become the ones she WANTS to be around. You never make her feel bad. That's not the same as being a doormat at all so don't get the wrong idea here. Doormat is telling her thank you when she disrespects you so that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she initiates and shows desire to spend time with you, you take her up on that offer. You act casual, like someone who is going to enjoy the event that you have tickets for. Nothing more nothing less.
You drop the relationship talks. NOW. AND IMMEDIIATELY. You are do no good by forcing her to think about whether she wants to leave or stay. She's said she wants to leave you and this hasn't changed. What needs to change to force a change in your stalemate is YOU.
GET UP AND DO STUFF. Be happy. Sing your favorite songs in the shower. Hum a tune. Be happy! Because your alive and life is great!
Positivity is comtagious. And more importantly negativity is not only contagious but it's the plague. You've been negative and a downer for s long time and trust me I know how that is. And she's absorbed all of your negativity for years until she cannot pososbly absorb anymore of it without going absolutely insane!! She's held on FOR A LONG TIME!
Find the old guy again. Find that guy she loved. Find that guy that YOU loved. Find the guy who was fun and easy going. Find that guy that didn't have something negative to say to her every single time you open your mouth. Remind yourself how to compliment her. Practice on other people too. Can you compliment her once a week? How about once a day? Nothing sexual, she isn't there yet. But perhaps about your daughter?
"Wife, the way you handled that melt down with D was awesome! ". And say it and really mean it. Remind yourself why you chose this person to be our other half because it's the fact that you forgot those reasons that actually led you to fall asleep at the wheel. Remind yourself brother. And let it sink in. Don't do anything about your M right now. It's in a deadlock that will take time to resolve. But your only chance lays in your ability to find the old magic you once had. One day at a time ...
Can you compliment your daughter? Don't use shallow things like how she looks etc. Can you compliment her intelligence? Can you tell her how much she means to you? There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who is a loving father and who's daughter loves him and wants to spend time with him. This isn't a trick to play on anyone this is an honest return to YOU being YOU the wonderful man who has so much to offer the world. The man that women love, the man that YOUR wife loved.
What are you doing to change your own life? What about changing the dynamic at home?
Me: 43, W: 43 M: 16, T: 18 D - 7, D - 7 ILUB: 26 August 2014 Still living together
It doesn't go far enough in my thinking. All of the above is focused on your WW and your M.
I would love to see Will focus on himself and his children.
I still see a man in denial, still at the first phase of the Kubler Ross cycle. REALITY is step 1. Things won't change for Will until denial ceases.
Yes sadness, anger and even self doubt pain are all on the road to recovery. I promise that although this is tough, the no more Mr nice guy, who is not nice at all us going to grow into an amazing human.
Your Ds love their dad, I say this often, your spouse may only be with you for a short period, your Ds are your Ds for the whole of your life. These precious bundles are worth the work.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Good, I read a different past threads every month. It reads differently every time.
These 2 updates really summaries my situation and what I have to do.
Be prepared to change, not be so definitive, use choose rather than have to. Make the choice to act and know sometimes staying still is an active choice.
Depression gets me talking but in a wrong way.
Has this been diagnoised? If not it may be anxiety or fear or.......
I am not keen on labels. Plus there are often multiple causes of this.
It is something that really dorsn't get fixed and keeps me back from emotionally intelligent.
Emotional intelligence is a choice. It's a skill set that can be learned and used like any other skill. It's not innate. There are plenty of examples here on the board of posters who have shifted as a result of acquiring and using these skills.
I have hardly felt I balanced it.
This is judging.
And that hurt my wife.
Mind reading. Those are her feelings not yours, you are not in control of her emotions. No one makes another 'hurt' although they act in ways which are hurtful, deliberately or accidentally. If your actions were neglectful then clear them up. Apologise, atone, move on, you are different and continue to change.
All I can do is get back where I found relief suring the days we dated.
Really? All you can do? Black and white thinking. Catastrophising.
A therapist helped me at that time.
I just don't learn.
Oh dear, more judging, more absolute thinking! You chose not to, own up to that choice and make a different one. Choose to learn and you will. Build a classroom for Will, there are so many tools out there. If you want try get.gg which is an amazing charity site packed full of free learning tools. There are many out there, some paid, I used the brain gym for six months. I chose to learn, recently someone asked 'how did you get so high functioning?'. When I first posted here I knew zero, I had no boundaries. Believe it or not I wrote 'contempt is not a boundary for me'. The amazing Sandi put me straight with no that's not the way it should be.
Though thanks to this forum and outsider feedback I see better. It just needs to go down for me to realise.
What you are doing is serving you well, otherwise you wouldnt do it, it keeps you stuck and maintains the status quo. Otherwise you would be making different choices. This reminds me a little of Ghost and being stuck in denial. I have a great affection for Ghost, this wonderful man loves his children and his W so much and so hung on to the status quo as long as he could. It's a valid choice, if its yours then that's fine.
Thank you all
Thought
Update 1: about the only thing you have really told us about is your depression and her affair. If she will not agree to end the affair and work on the M, then what are your options? 1) Separate, 2)Keep things as they are now. You have been here since 2014, which is fine, however, you seem to be asking the same questions and not getting very far along.
From an outsider's point of view, it appears that your depression pretty much rules you life, and perhaps your W feels it ruled the MR, as well. If a person feels that they are constantly the underdog, then they either act accordingly or rebel against it. How much of your depression is low self-esteem? How often do you feel that you are the underdog at work and/or other places?
At this point, MPO is that you do what is necessary to get well. That needs to be your priority. If that means you have to move away from her, so be it. It may take a break between the two of you in order to be able to become better. Staying together in this environment is not helping you. She might be using the affair as her escape hatch from the reality at home..... but, I don't know. It does seem that something needs to change b/c the counseling is not solving any of the problems. Once you get away from her, you might be able to find the man you use to be, or become better. She would have her space and eventually she might be able to see you as a man she wants, instead of just seeing the depression.
As I have told you, I understand depression. I really do. I hope you will not see anything I've said as criticism. It is very sad to see anyone living the way you and your W are doing now. I hope that both of you can find happiness in the near future.
Yes I really agree. And other than new strategies this is still the case I think.
Update 2;
I had suggested to you many months ago to AVOID at all costs, any counseling. It doesn't work until there are clear and honest efforts by WAW to fix the M. Stop this as soon as you can. Counselor already gave both of you an ultimatum to decide by next session....something that doesn't need to be decided soon. And indeed forcing a decision now will only lead to a negative outcome.
Yes, I don't believe MC is a good idea when one party has an A.
But more important here is "she says I made her feel bad". Why would you do that?
No one makes another 'feel' anything. It's nonsense. We can provide an environment in which x or y happens or we can act in ways that are intended to do that. WW bad feelings are her own, grow up WW take responsibility for your own feelings and set boundaries. An A Is not a boundary.
Is not 'why would you'.
We are not omnipotent we don't create feelings in others. And there is no such emotion as 'feeling bad'. It sounds like WW is unsure of her feelings and identify them. It's her sandpit not yours.
There are several sets of feelings and in none of them is 'bad' identified as a feeling. Feelings are a little like knobs on an analogue music mixer, in other words they can be graded and identified. Have you watched the film Inside Out? It's a Disney film, great to watch with your Ds, in it the following five feelings are identified from the prime list of anger, pride, joy, sad, disgust, fear. I recommend owning this film and watching it. I have watched it many many times.
Examine the two states guilt (for what you have done) and shame (for who you are). Guilt is useful it initiates change of behaviour and induces atonement. One of the peeps you atone to is yourself. Atone and forgive you. Keeping yourself hooked on shame keeps you stuck. Listen to Ted talks, i recommend Brene Brown on shame.
For your ego? Do you want her back or not?
I truly disagree with this. Clearly you want 'her' back, but 'her' as she is? And who is 'you'?
Who wants to be with someone who makes them feel bad?
I think this needs to read 'with someone who is invalidating'. Validating is a skill set and so is ceasing to invalidate. By denying WW her feelings and her right to them, or trying to manage them , that's invalidating. If WW says she feels bad, that is her feeling and she has a right to it. Even if she means, sad or angry or disgusted. Being Mr Happy to trigger the same in WW is invalidating her right to feel bad, angry etc. Not something that can be done, another's state is their state. Concentrate on your own and being authentic for yourself. Otherwise you invalidate your own feelings!
I often see others here saying they are validating when they are invalidating. On the abuse thread is a post about invalidating and it is as important to stop digging with invalidating as it is to start validating.
It's another skill set. And validating doesn't mean agreeing, it is acknowledging another's right to their beliefs, thoughts and feelings. Invalidating isn't disagreeing, it is negating.and being Mr Happy to manage your WW feeling 'bad' is invalidating. It is gaslighting. Permanent authentic change is needed by each of us to become the best we can be.
This is the way I see it today.
If she reached out and invited you to something, even if you knew she had planned to go with someone else, why wouldn't you go? I mean, if YOU want to go. She reached out to you to crack the door open, and you jammed her fingers in the door.
She is with someone else, besotted even. So yes I would not only want to trap her fingers but her whole goddam arm too. Quite rightly too. Doesn't mean we sabotage our DB efforts. Just we accept our feelings.
--------'--------- Look. I'm not sure if you have thought your position out. And I'm not on the forums too much. So I'll just try to summarize what worked for me, and I was in almost the exact situation as you....
You need to be the fun one. YOU become the ones she WANTS to be around. You never make her feel bad. That's not the same as being a doormat at all so don't get the wrong idea here. Doormat is telling her thank you when she disrespects you that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she initiates and shows desire to spend time with you, you take her up on that offer. You act casual, like someone who is going to enjoy the event that you have tickets for. Nothing more nothing less.
Well ok. I would want the A stopped too.
You drop the relationship talks. NOW. AND IMMEDIIATELY. You are do no good by forcing her to think about whether she wants to leave or stay. She's said she wants to leave you and this hasn't changed. What needs to change to force a change in your stalemate is YOU.
OK. New R required here. You have no control over her. Do this or that and it will change if she wants to leave you? Maybe.....
although how us this going to stop her A behaviour or waywardness?
GET UP AND DO STUFF.
Absolutely
Be happy.
No, be authentic. Fake happiness is more denial of your reality. In the fake it until you make it stakes, won't cut mustard. Really are you happy she is in A? I doubt it. Why fake you are?
Sing your favorite songs in the shower. Hum a tune. Be happy! Because your alive and life is great!
GAL improves mood, no doubt. Do this for you, because it is the best for you. Not because of your M and WW .
Positivity is comtagious.
So build a positive environment for you and your children
And more importantly negativity is not only contagious but it's the plague. You've been negative and a downer for s long time and trust me I know how that is.
Yes
And she's absorbed all of your negativity for years until she cannot pososbly absorb anymore of it without going absolutely insane!! She's held on FOR A LONG TIME!
No. Once again control. You are a super powered villain you can do this? NO NO no. This was a dance between two. You are only responsible for you. WW isn't a child, this infantalises her, takes away her role.
Find the old guy again.
No. The old guy can be kindly told, thank you. You did the best you could, now it's time for me to be new guy. A better newer guy, someone who is made from who he wants to be
Find that guy she loved. Find that guy that YOU loved.
Keep what works.
Find the guy who was fun and easy going.
No, be authentic not a Pollyanna or a male version of. Be you, the best you can be.
Find that guy that didn't have something negative to say to her every single time you open your mouth.
Find that guy who has such gratitude and positives in his life he is bursting with positivity. That guy has this because there are real positives in his life. Genuine positivity.
Remind yourself how to compliment her. Practice on other people too. Can you compliment her once a week? How about once a day? Nothing sexual, she isn't there yet. But perhaps about your daughter?
"Wife, the way you handled that melt down with D was awesome! ". And say it and really mean it. Remind yourself why you chose this person to be our other half because it's the fact that you forgot those reasons that actually led you to fall asleep at the wheel. Remind yourself brother. And let it sink in. Don't do anything about your M right now. It's in a deadlock that will take time to resolve. But your only chance lays in your ability to find the old magic you once had. One day at a time ...
I prefer validation to praise. Sounds a little Uriah Heap to me. The humble man, or the fake flatter. Validate, and learn how not to invalidate.
Can you compliment your daughter? Don't use shallow things like how she looks etc. Can you compliment her intelligence? Can you tell her how much she means to you?
Express love and validate.
There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who is a loving father and who's daughter loves him and wants to spend time with him. This isn't a trick to play on anyone this is an honest return to YOU being YOU the wonderful man who has so much to offer the world. The man that women love, the man that YOUR wife loved.
Not if they are in full on A!
Have interactions because you and your D love to have fun together. WW is a by line.
What are you doing to change your own life? What about changing the dynamic at home?
Oh Yes, the best thing yet. You do this for you.
-----------------------
One of the most important things is to look to your own emotional growth. Emotional maturity and resilience is about knowing your own emotions.
Additionally, Will I believe I read faulty thinking. A useful exercise is to read one of your own threads and identify key faulty thinking
Judgement Labelling Invalidating All or nothing Absolutes and definitives Should, will, must, have to use choose to Black and white thinking Negativity
Among others its an eye opener to do, if you do the analysis impartially
Vanilla you are so considerate. Depression was diagnosed. Spent 2/3 years with therapy for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. You see for you identifying the thinking pattern is easier. I struggle. I have to say I have feel ill like not getting out of bed style for almost 9 years. At the beginning of my stitch, my wife was saying she wouldn't take it if I did fall ill. My therapist which I visited at that point said turn it into anger.
I will your words over and over again. I don't want to be defensive.
Me: 43, W: 43 M: 16, T: 18 D - 7, D - 7 ILUB: 26 August 2014 Still living together
You do what you can, shoulding on yourself and poor thinking will drag you back to that place.
For today, that's not you. You are here, choosing to be authentic.
CBT has great tools for cognitive reasoning! It's all about cognition. Let us dig into those, using a worksheet and notebook Will. Let's work to change that beating up on Will.
So what choices do you have?
What can you do to stop judging yourself?
Where does this come from, what does it feel like, is it coloured, moving, how is your body?
It isn't easy although it gets more obvious with practice.
How early did it start? Is it from childhood?
Has this been examined?
As always you can say no V. I am not offended by my questions staying unanswered. I truly believe that you are beginning to change.
I also believe anger of the right type is very motivating and necessary for certain types of change.
I say change, change changes back. Shift is permanent, that is what I dearly wish for Will.
And being down is and can be a very valid response and stimulate shift. It's often a physiological mechanism which requires intervention. Important extreme self care and I would like to say there is no blame or shame or guilt needed for depression. This is part of being human. It's ok.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Let me try to fill in the blanks as I am sure there are people depressed. Failed relationship is one of the causes of depression.
Now I have seen probably 5 psychiatrists and 3 psychologists. Do I know the reason for my long running depression? No. What I have learned is that the cause is less important. You need to know how to cope with it. It isn't like to dive deep find something and fix it. And good doctors never come to a conclusion. They ask questions and have you go through the voyage. They merely reflect and influence your thinking. In my experience psychologists have been able to get me on track. Yes, I did get a med from the psychiatrist but it was the talking therapy kept me going.
Bipolar well that is a result of back to back depressions. Possibly from 10 years old every 2 years I felt really low very low. At the end, lithium and more importantly mindfulness really helped me. Look there are people around who get electric shocks every 6 months and try to go on with a normal life. These are educated people.
I am ok but as I read myself I noticed that yes I am asking the same questions. So my body function is ok but my thinking still not there. Hence I would say I am not getting to my W. Being who I once was and even better.
That's me. I Will Do.
Me: 43, W: 43 M: 16, T: 18 D - 7, D - 7 ILUB: 26 August 2014 Still living together
very early morning. wanted to jot a few things. want to be happy. maybe with my outburst she thought I want it done. all I want to say was my boundry. she does have OM in her head but during the argument she didn't reveal anything. but yes she is lying.
This Friday and weekend we were more together. Around the kids but she was less resistant to have me involved. Fri were all at the dentist and went to have pizza. Sat there was a birthday. Did 2 hrs shopping together then I took the girls to the birthday. Sun they ran and I went to get some stuff. Girls donut and a sesame bar for W. They enjoyed it. Again Sun she wanted to drop things to her workplace. She said they could drive. I said Inwould take them. I did and we had coffee and desert. Came back daily stuff and slept. She wants to cycle on Sun so will help on that next week. I love my family. W now sleeps somehwere else but when she was with me she did speak to me but didnt want me near her. Her interaction with OM might have increased and did that on Fri. I don't know. Inacn't be No More Mr Nice Guy. My attitude is not right. It pushes her away. I did send an apology to her during the week.
V, Sandi2 I just can"t. Yes I have seen examples where setting boundries works. Mine was a build up of events. As it says on chp 12. Think about patience. Multiply a million. Waiting in limbo again.
Me: 43, W: 43 M: 16, T: 18 D - 7, D - 7 ILUB: 26 August 2014 Still living together
