Newbie, need help with WAW!

[Deckard]

Is the "strong/confident/tell her what's up" path this "I should go in there and tell her we have something worth saving and that I'm not gonna let her give up on it with out a fight, that the marriage counselor was a joke and we need to remember how to talk like adults and figure this out, that she needs to stop running away and we're gonna work out the all the little issues we had. That we have something special and she isn't going to ruin it because she is scared to talk, and that I need to start acting like the strong husband I was and want to be once again. Essentially he thinks I need to be strong and tell her we're going to work through it and when ever she is ready I will help her move back in. Then ask if she has any questions, excuse myself, and leave." ?

I'd be cautious of framing it exactly like that. There are some controlling things in there.

"it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled."

How do you mean "steam rolled"? Did things happen in MC where you were "steam rolled"?

“She expects me to show up wimper and cry, ask why and beg.” Your action, instead of words, can be that you are interested in making this work, but that you know you will be ok if she proceeds with the divorce.

Have you read DR or DB?

[180Man]

Is the "strong/confident/tell her what's up" path this "I should go in there and tell her we have something worth saving and that I'm not gonna let her give up on it with out a fight, that the marriage counselor was a joke and we need to remember how to talk like adults and figure this out, that she needs to stop running away and we're gonna work out the all the little issues we had. That we have something special and she isn't going to ruin it because she is scared to talk, and that I need to start acting like the strong husband I was and want to be once again. Essentially he thinks I need to be strong and tell her we're going to work through it and when ever she is ready I will help her move back in. Then ask if she has any questions, excuse myself, and leave." ?

I'd be cautious of framing it exactly like that. There are some controlling things in there.

Yes, I was thinking this would be that. I agree, not phrased quite like this.

"it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled."

How do you mean "steam rolled"? Did things happen in MC where you were "steam rolled"?

In MC it became all about what I had done prior wrong prior to the A that led to us disconnecting. I know I wanted to put my issues with the A itself on the back burner and allow her to talk about our problems leading up to the A, but it felt like I had done everything wrong and it was a lot to digest. In reality it was both of us who screwed up and allowed the disconnect to start.

“She expects me to show up wimper and cry, ask why and beg.” Your action, instead of words, can be that you are interested in making this work, but that you know you will be ok if she proceeds with the divorce.

Have you read DR or DB?

No, which one should I read first for my situation? Essentially a wife who had a short affair who then turned into a walk-away once we started MC because she felt we had grown apart, we're too different, had too much baggage, and could not give each other the happiness we once had.

Our coffee meeting is set now for a week from Monday. I guess I have a little bit of time to get myself together and figure out how to show up.

[sandi2]

MWD does not separate the WW from the WAW, and they will tell you to take a soft approach. They suggest you start building or repairing a friendship, empathize, etc.

Since waywardness is based on the absence of respect.......and since the WW is filled with contempt, selfishness, entitlement, manipulation, untrustworthiness, lies, infidelity, etc.............she will not respect a H who is soft and enabling. And almost every WW story I have ever read, the WW will tell the LBH she wants them to be friends! Friendship never works well with a WW, unless you are prepared to end all hope of ever being more than her friend.......and you are willing to be "used" for whatever her mood should dictate, without her giving back.

This is how the friendship works when the W is wayward. Her definition and your definition of friendship are completely different. As her H, you will be working at the friendship, hoping it will help repair things and eventually lead to reconciliation. However, the wayward wife sees it as you being available to her at any moment for any thing she wants. When you get tired of her taking advantage of you, and you pull back just one time........she starts screaming how she thought you wanted to be her friend! So, being a friend to a wayward, is actually just enabling her. The H is trapped in the role of her friend and he can't show his strong stance of a no-nonsense toleration from anyone who plays games, has hidden agendas, acts entitled, and uses others for their own selfish gain.

I will tell you what the wayward wife respects. The man who is stronger than her. The man who she can't order around. The man who doesn't fall for her manipulative tricks. The man who won't put up with her b.s. The man who will laugh at her self entitlement, and flatly refuse to cater to it. The man who doesn't hesitate to call her out for bad behavior. The man who make decisions and can take charge.

If you notice in the previous paragraph, it lists traits that may be related to the bad-boy image. I wasn't even thinking of it when writing it down......but it kind of jumped out at me when I finished. Men have asked why women go for the bad boy types. I don't think any woman wants to choose a person who is bad.......but I think it's b/c she is seeing the other characteristics like those above.

Back to waywards..........they can't respect a man who rolls over and fails to show his backbone. She will test him to see how far she can push him. While she is displaying her disrespect for him and their M..........he must display a firm stance that radiates his male strength that she cannot manipulate, threaten, or bully. There needs to be this span of time where he is giving her a view of him being a man who will not lay down and accept her bad behavior. He is not going to cater after anyone who treats him like cr@p, and especially her. This is what it takes when dealing with a wayward wife.

Once she ends her dispectful activity and shows her willingness to do whatever is necessary to save the MR..........then you can start with the friendship thing. I don't really like to call it that, but I will say friends so you will know what I mean. My take on it is that hundreds of people can qualify as your W's friend. But only one person can hold the position of her husband. Right?

[180Man]

Question...if I show up and she wants to tell me about why she wants a divorce, the reasons behind it, etc, and I validate and empathize...she will likely feel like she has given me the closure she has said she thinks I need.

Won't that, in turn, give her a kind of closure and feeling that she did what she needed to do and can move on and be done talking to me about it?

And if not, how does this strategy lead to another coffee meeting or additional communication?

[180Man]

MWD does not separate the WW from the WAW, and they will tell you to take a soft approach. They suggest you start building or repairing a friendship, empathize, etc.

Since waywardness is based on the absence of respect.......and since the WW is filled with contempt, selfishness, entitlement, manipulation, untrustworthiness, lies, infidelity, etc.............she will not respect a H who is soft and enabling. And almost every WW story I have ever read, the WW will tell the LBH she wants them to be friends! Friendship never works well with a WW, unless you are prepared to end all hope of ever being more than her friend.......and you are willing to be "used" for whatever her mood should dictate, without her giving back.

This is how the friendship works when the W is wayward. Her definition and your definition of friendship are completely different. As her H, you will be working at the friendship, hoping it will help repair things and eventually lead to reconciliation. However, the wayward wife sees it as you being available to her at any moment for any thing she wants. When you get tired of her taking advantage of you, and you pull back just one time........she starts screaming how she thought you wanted to be her friend! So, being a friend to a wayward, is actually just enabling her. The H is trapped in the role of her friend and he can't show his strong stance of a no-nonsense toleration from anyone who plays games, has hidden agendas, acts entitled, and uses others for their own selfish gain.

I will tell you what the wayward wife respects. The man who is stronger than her. The man who she can't order around. The man who doesn't fall for her manipulative tricks. The man who won't put up with her b.s. The man who will laugh at her self entitlement, and flatly refuse to cater to it. The man who doesn't hesitate to call her out for bad behavior. The man who make decisions and can take charge.

If you notice in the previous paragraph, it lists traits that may be related to the bad-boy image. I wasn't even thinking of it when writing it down......but it kind of jumped out at me when I finished. Men have asked why women go for the bad boy types. I don't think any woman wants to choose a person who is bad.......but I think it's b/c she is seeing the other characteristics like those above.

Back to waywards..........they can't respect a man who rolls over and fails to show his backbone. She will test him to see how far she can push him. While she is displaying her disrespect for him and their M..........he must display a firm stance that radiates his male strength that she cannot manipulate, threaten, or bully. There needs to be this span of time where he is giving her a view of him being a man who will not lay down and accept her bad behavior. He is not going to cater after anyone who treats him like cr@p, and especially her. This is what it takes when dealing with a wayward wife.

Once she ends her dispectful activity and shows her willingness to do whatever is necessary to save the MR..........then you can start with the friendship thing. I don't really like to call it that, but I will say friends so you will know what I mean. My take on it is that hundreds of people can qualify as your W's friend. But only one person can hold the position of her husband. Right?

Oh, looks like you snuck in a reply just when I was asking that question. Thank you for your response Sandi! I am so torn between your advice (which aligns with what my friends think I should do) vs the validation. What do you think is the right course of action based on my situation? I can answer any questions to add amplifying information if needed.

[MoveFrwd]

It's very frustrating to read that you keep aligning the approach Sandi is talking about as an opposite to validating. Validation is an effective communication skill in and out of these situations. Your attitude suggests you should read through the thread again.

Validation is not agreeing. It is not being a softie. It is LISTENING and giving validity to what someone else feels. She feels what she feels and who are you to tell her that she doesn't?

[180Man]

I read through the validation thread again this morning, I'm frustrated too! I agree that listening and giving validity to her thoughts and feelings is a good thing, but I'm confused when I read what Sandi says because I also agree with her thoughts.

What would an example conversation look like that validates in the manner the validation thread shows but also shows the husband's strength? I think I have trouble seeing how this conversation would play out with my wife. I have no expectations of fixing anything in one sit down, but I don't want to make things worse!

Sorry I'm just not getting it, I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm really just trying to get this to click for me.

[sandi2]

Question...if I show up and she wants to tell me about why she wants a divorce, the reasons behind it, etc, and I validate and empathize...she will likely feel like she has given me the closure she has said she thinks I need.

So what if she does? Why are you afraid she would think you were getting closure? Are you afraid it would speed up the D?

It is not uncommon for newcomers to have the same thought pattern you are experiencing. They fear if the WW should think he is having thoughts of ending the M, that it is a guarantee for putting a rush on the divorce. So, they keep pulling on that rope they have tied around her, trying to convince her they can save the M. Pulling tighter causes her to pull the other way, and you essentially have a tug of war. However, if you drop the rope, it ends the tug of war.

You will not change her mind by showing her how much you want to stay M to her. In fact, it would be better if she really wasn't completely certain of your feelings about her. Stop wearing your heart on your sleeve for her to see, and replace it with a poker face. The H who stops thinking so much about every little word his WW utters, and starts focusing on himself, will begin showing his male confidence and independence.

[180Man]

So what if she does? Why are you afraid she would think you were getting closure? Are you afraid it would speed up the D?

Yeah, pretty much this.

It is not uncommon for newcomers to have the same thought pattern you are experiencing. They fear if the WW should think he is having thoughts of ending the M, that it is a guarantee for putting a rush on the divorce. So, they keep pulling on that rope they have tied around her, trying to convince her they can save the M. Pulling tighter causes her to pull the other way, and you essentially have a tug of war. However, if you drop the rope, it ends the tug of war.

I sincerely want to drop the rope. I have taken a lot of good steps toward this, not begging, not calling, not talking to her family...essentially a lot of your rules (tremendous post btw, thank you for that!).

You will not change her mind by showing her how much you want to stay M to her. In fact, it would be better if she really wasn't completely certain of your feelings about her. Stop wearing your heart on your sleeve for her to see, and replace it with a poker face. The H who stops thinking so much about every little word his WW utters, and starts focusing on himself, will begin showing his male confidence and independence.

This is the very difficult part for me. In a short duration visit, I know I could easily withhold my feelings. However, I have always been very open with her about my feelings and she can read me quite well, if we have a longer sit down I suspect I would have a terrible difficulty in maintaining that poker face. Which is exactly why I am struggling with these ideas of validation and strength.

[sandi2]

This is the very difficult part for me. In a short duration visit, I know I could easily withhold my feelings. However, I have always been very open with her about my feelings and she can read me quite well, if we have a longer sit down I suspect I would have a terrible difficulty in maintaining that poker face. Which is exactly why I am struggling with these ideas of validation and strength.

Are you saying since she reads you so well, you might as well blabber about your feelings? You are not a puppet who has no control over his own body. Can you not keep your mouth closed and not break down in tears in front of her? If you just have to give her that little meeting she wants, then you call the place and time. I suggest somewhere public.....to help control bad behavior from her and help keep your emotions in check. Then just listen. That's all you have to do. You can validate by saying, "I hear what you are saying", or just nod your head. You don't have to kiss her rear. You don't try, again, to change her mind. If things start to get out of hand, then immediately inform her the meeting is over, and quickly exit. Can you not do that?

Remember, you do not have to agree to anything. You are there to hear what she has to say. If she tries to talk you into signing something, or whatever, tell her you agreed to hear her out and that's all. Anything else you will have to think about it.

You are the 180 Man, so do a 180 and don't be an open book with her. Let her wonder what you are thinking/feeling.