Gordie: Pulling it all together

[Rose888]

Sara, I agree that spouses need to be protective of their health.

The quote that Gordie posted doesn't talk about a spouse that is having sex with someone else. It only mentions a spouse who is estranged or confused.

When I have posted positively about ML with a spouse, it has not been in situations where the spouse is suspected of having a PA.

[Gordie]

Sara, I agree that spouses need to be protective of their health.

The quote that Gordie posted doesn't talk about a spouse that is having sex with someone else. It only mentions a spouse who is estranged or confused.

When I have posted positively about ML with a spouse, it has not been in situations where the spouse is suspected of having a PA.

PsySara and Rose,

I agree re ML when the spouse is not in an active PA, thanks for the thoughts and clarification. In my situation, I don't think my W is but recognize I may be wrong.

[Gordie]

Random updates:

Experiment and monitor results:

Making my W hot beverages in the morning and evening makes her happy and draws her closer to me, even when she is in a bad mood she accepts the act of service.

My W's favorite non sexual physical touch is massage. I stopped massages after BD as it seemed close to initiating sex but decided to experiment on this front. She has been very responsive and welcoming.

Doing more household chores seems to have no affect. No sign of appreciation or closeness no matter how much more I do. Maybe I haven't chosen the right chores or done them to my W's satisfaction. This needs more experimentation.

Detachment:

I've had a hard time from detaching from my W's moods but think I have made some progress. To me, they are like the weather. On days when W is warm and sunny, it is pleasant to be outside. When she is cold and stormy, I prefer to remain indoors. In either case, I can choose to have a good day no matter the weather. This is still a work in progress.

[Woke_Up]

Yesterday, I re read the DR section on infidelity and one of the exercises MWD encourages you to do if W doesn't want to give up partner is to ask: what is it about the OM that your W finds so attractive?

I find that a sticky one. I think it's good to know for when piecing is underway, I am not so sure what we can do about things while she is still wayward? In my case, OM is via online - always asks what she is thinking, always professing love & how profound it is, playing his guitar/singing songs for her (old fashioned wooing). I can take all of this on board, however, as the advice when she won't quit is pretty much LRT, then it has to be parked away for future reference. In your sitch, I don't know - if you can add some elements in without pursuing, then great, but you can't risk turning into an obedient and faithful dog just to try and please her. All the advice says it won't work, and it probably wouldn't work with her POM once reality came calling.

Keep hanging tough.

[Gordie]

I agree. I found the exercise to be helpful in that it made me realize that I can never be the faithful and obedient dog that she currently wants. It's just not me. Yes, I can be more attentive, I can enjoy being in her presence, I can be a better listener. The odd thing is that it's the opposite of what W was attracted to me in the first place: intellectual, a leader, driven. Now those things are turn offs. The POM represents the opposite: anti intellectual, a follower, not ambitious. My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that.

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

[Rose888]

I agree. I found the exercise to be helpful in that it made me realize that I can never be the faithful and obedient dog that she currently wants. It's just not me. Yes, I can be more attentive, I can enjoy being in her presence, I can be a better listener. The odd thing is that it's the opposite of what W was attracted to me in the first place: intellectual, a leader, driven. Now those things are turn offs. The POM represents the opposite: anti intellectual, a follower, not ambitious. My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that.

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

It sounds like you are implying women only respect alpha males.

Honestly, I can only tolerate alpha males in small doses, as a brief break from regular life. Any longer than that and I can't stand the arrogance.

Give me the calm, rationale, willing to consider another point of view, easy to work with beta male any day.

Confidence is not limited to alpha males. In fact, many "alpha males" I know seem to be trying to cover up their insecurities.

As for how you show your wife that you can be in a relationship with a strong woman . . . do you often complain about how she does things? When you spend time together, who picks the activity, restaurant, movie, etc? Do you "mansplain"? When she shares something donyou let her explain her point of view and really seek to understand what she is saying before you respond? If she comes to you with an issue, do you make sure she is done talking before you jump in with a fix? Do you make decisions collaboratively, or do you have the final say? What happens if you disagree on a major life issue?

Alpha and beta rank people relative to each other.

I give respect based on a person's character.

It's easy to respect a confident, collaborative beta male.

[Gordie]

One more thing: sandi2 has a good discussion of WW vs MLCW. I think the beta male/Mr nice guy/lack of respect seems more common in the WW threads. The MLC seems more independent of the spouse and the MLCW or H needs to go down their own path, which unfortunately appears to be a multi year process usually including infidelity. Many MLCers seem to go through this process and remain married if their LBS wants to stand. In my case, my W appears hell bent on separation and divorce to experience the independence she so desperately desires. What Hearts Blessing and other MLC survivors stress is that the LBS must go through his or her own maturation process or else mistakes will be repeated and R will be impossible.

[Gordie]

***It sounds like you are implying women only respect alpha males.***

Rose--thank you, as always. I don't think that but it seems that sandi2 and others think that which I have found surprising and part of why I am asking the question. I actually don't think I am strongly alpha or beta but somewhere in the middle.

***Honestly, I can only tolerate alpha males in small doses, as a brief break from regular life. Any longer than that and I can't stand the arrogance. Give me the calm, rationale, willing to consider another point of view, easy to work with beta male any day. Confidence is not limited to alpha males. In fact, many "alpha males" I know seem to be trying to cover up their insecurities.***

Thank you! I'm so glad to hear the other perspective on this. Awesome questions below.

***As for how you show your wife that you can be in a relationship with a strong woman . . . do you often complain about how she does things?***

W is super sensitive to any complaints or criticisms and she never says she's sorry so have learned it's not worth it. On little things, we agree to do things differently. On big things, we defer to each others' areas of responsibility (W home and children, me money, cars, etc,).

***When you spend time together, who picks the activity, restaurant, movie, etc?***

We are generally collaborative where I ask her what she wants to do/where she wants to go and then I take care of the logistics. On movies, our tastes differ so we don't go see movies together.

***Do you "mansplain"?***

Yes, I sometimes do this and my W resents it. This is an area where I'm trying to improve in terms of assuming she understands something unless she indicates otherwise.

***When she shares something donyou let her explain her point of view and really seek to understand what she is saying before you respond? If she comes to you with an issue, do you make sure she is done talking before you jump in with a fix?***

This is another area of complaint where I have tried to improve greatly. I have learned she just wants me to listen and not share my viewpoint at all unless requested.

***Do you make decisions collaboratively, or do you have the final say? What happens if you disagree on a major life issue?***

As per the above, we defer to each other's area of expertise. She has final say on some things and I have final say on others and we have not had major disagreements until recently.

***Alpha and beta rank people relative to each other. I give respect based on a person's character. It's easy to respect a confident, collaborative beta male.***

Thank you for those words of wisdom. I need to spend more time thinking about these issues and what you said.

[Woke_Up]

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

I think there is a stereotype of Alphas, when what we are talking about is leadership. You can be many types of leader. I read a good article on Husbandly leadership, maybe have a google for it. Leadership can come in a variety forms, and there is probably a right way and a wrong way of displaying leadership. My W thinks it is the bullying/bossy way and describes herself as an Alpha, whereas I tend to take a more collaborative and supportive approach, at least for work. I haven't necessarily worked out the right way to be a husbandly leader. More reading/research/practice required.

[KentS]

" My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that."

I believe it is simpler than what you are considering. Gordie has become the everyday ho hum. It does not matter if you are the greatest guy in the world or not. WAW's and/or WAH's have a long list of what is wrong with their spouse. We can all make that list if we choose to go there. Bottom line is your WAW has started down the path of separating from you. If this is not true, you would not be here.

You need to prepare yourself for the path that your W has chosen. You can still be respectful, you can still be somewhat available. However, you need to exercise control over your own future, your finances and your joy. In all things protect your emotional self.

You asked how you have enabled your W. It was your own admission that you were living to hear her ping you (tele calls and text post). For her to show some sign of love. Your hope is that somehow the nightmare will just go away. Problem is, you are not in control of her nightmare, her drama. At best, you can only control Gordie. Please focus on yourself and stop trying to figure your WAW out.

I agree with the earlier poster that you don't know the truth about W's relationship with OM. A WAW will not tell you the truth. Walk away spouses also continue to try to draw their spouse into the drama. At least until they feel emotionally and financially secure to pursue their fantasy.

Bottom line, is you can't do anything about your W's choices. You need to get strong, independent and start moving away from her. She needs to see it. You need to inject a little of your own choices into the equation to show it's not all about her. Stop letting the tail wag the Gordie dog.

I am in your corner Gordie. I am not so sure your WAW will turn back. Thus, I urge you to prepare and consider LRT's as I believe this saga needs to be upset. WAW needs to think her drama is about to become her reality, not yours.

All your growth and realization of how you blew it is great. It is necessary to confess sin and ask forgiveness. The spouse needs to honor the confession and be open to a path for healing. Unfortunately, many find it easier to give up and move on which only subjects them to a repeat performance. You on the other hand have learned much about making relationships work. Relationships are hard work. The soul mate stuff is crap.

Hang in there buddy!