Gordie: Pulling it all together

[KentS]

Boundaries that show a change in our fido like behavior. You gotta stop responding whenever she whistles. Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life. Perhaps you can start by not responding to texts and calls on demand. Your above confession illustrates you have been unsuccessful at stepping away.

You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash. You don't need to be mean or disrespectful, just unavailable.

Sorry if I don't seem real luvy duvy. From your last post, it is safe to say you appear to be enabling her behavior and disrespect for the marriage.

In my own story, I handled the love you but not in love a bit different than many. When I got the sad story that W never got to be on her own, live her own life, my response was supportive in that I offered to help her pack and not to worry as the kids and I will be fine. I never accepted or enabled indecision on w's part. It was very risky, but brief. I watched others on this BB go thru the saga for years.

Eventually, the DB process leads the spouse still working on the M to more advanced actions like the LRT. Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it.

The question is "How much longer do you do what hasn't worked?"

Only you can decide.

When the marriage starts to heal, it is obvious. She will say, she wants to try. That is when you begin to DB your butt off.

[Gordie]

***You gotta stop responding whenever she whistles. Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life. Perhaps you can start by not responding to texts and calls on demand. Your above confession illustrates you have been unsuccessful at stepping away. ***

Truth

***You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash.***

Yes, but the latest is she feels she isn't ready for a new romantic R. I thought after we separated that the new R with POM would be pursued but now I'm not sure.

***You don't need to be mean or disrespectful, just unavailable.***

Thanks

***Sorry if I don't seem real luvy duvy. From your last post, it is safe to say you appear to be enabling her behavior and disrespect for the marriage. ***

How?

***In my own story, I handled the love you but not in love a bit different than many.***

W has never said that. W says she is still in love with me.

***When I got the sad story that W never got to be on her own, live her own life, my response was supportive in that I offered to help her pack and not to worry as the kids and I will be fine. I never accepted or enabled indecision on w's part. It was very risky, but brief.***

Wow

***I watched others on this BB go thru the saga for years. ***

I am afraid of that.

***Eventually, the DB process leads the spouse still working on the M to more advanced actions like the LRT. Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it. The question is "How much longer do you do what hasn't worked?" Only you can decide.***

What wasn't working for me was being emotionally disconnected and not investing enough of myself in my W and our R. I think what I have been doing has worked to rekindle that connection...but clearly not enough to want my W to remain M, as there are other MLC issues beyond me.

***When the marriage starts to heal, it is obvious. She will say, she wants to try. That is when you begin to DB your butt off.***

I can only hope to hear that some day.

[Zues126]

***You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash.***

Yes, but the latest is she feels she isn't ready for a new romantic R. I thought after we separated that the new R with POM would be pursued but now I'm not sure.

I didn't respond the other day when you posted your WAW said this bit about the OM, but this is the 2nd time you've mentioned it so here I go:

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

An affair is like a drug. Have you ever heard someone say they want to quit using? Or quit drinking? Or quit smoking? At the time those words are uttered they are true, but that is all they are - WORDS. In fact, there is the idea of 'medicating with positive intent', meaning that someone feels bad, so they talk about how bad they feel and how they are going to do something about it, and then this self talk encourages them and they stop feeling so bad, so then they decide to do nothing after all.

Bottom line, you simply can't continue to take her statements as literal, logical, or progressive. You're dealing with the equivalent of an addict. She will use your love for her as a way to manipulate you, string you along, get you to believe what she wants you to. Yes, she is capable of this, because she is an addict.

I went through it. I have email chains I've reread watching XW spin her tales of how she just wanted FREEDOM, and to be able to BE HERSELF, and the last thing she wanted was another R! I won't even tell you what I went through because it doesn't matter. But if you read my last post on qt's thread you'll see it was a good thing, because it allowed me to truly understand what I was dealing with.

This doesn't mean for sure your WAW is going to pursue OM. That's not my point. My point is that you need to reread your last few posts and look at all of the times you try to draw conclusions or logical building blocks of where you thing things stand in an effort to draw conclusions based on words she has spoken to you. She almost has you convinced that she really loves you and wants to be married, she finds it tragic she cannot be, she wishes she could spend the rest of her life with you, but just not right now, she needs space and time to reflect...it all sounds good, only that little part about separating and divorcing and seeing other people, but she didn't sound like she really wanted it, she's just confused, she still loves me, I'll be a good boy and maybe she'll see how crazy this is and snap out of it...meanwhile she's living a double (or triple or quadruple) life and hiding so much you wouldn't even recognize her if you truly knew what was going through her head. She's created another entire reality with OM, and right now she's invested much, much more in that one.

OK, I've said it every way I can say it. Denial's difficult to overcome. Detachment is hard. I know you're doing your best to open your eyes. Maybe a certain amount of time and pain has to ensue before this is fully possible. Hang in G.

[Gordie]

***Bottom line, you simply can't continue to take her statements as literal, logical, or progressive. You're dealing with the equivalent of an addict. She will use your love for her as a way to manipulate you, string you along, get you to believe what she wants you to. Yes, she is capable of this, because she is an addict.***

Thank you for these truth darts. Of course, I truly want in my heart to believe my situation is different (she freely admitted to me that she loved POM (no snooping on my part) but hadn't acted on it and doesn't want to act on it until we are separated or divorced (which sandi2 even says is the right thing to do)...says she still loves me, yet also loves the POM at the same time...I know, just words, but she never gave me the ILYBNILWY), but I know in my head you are probably right...

***I went through it. I have email chains I've reread watching XW spin her tales of how she just wanted FREEDOM, and to be able to BE HERSELF, and the last thing she wanted was another R! I won't even tell you what I went through because it doesn't matter. But if you read my last post on qt's thread you'll see it was a good thing, because it allowed me to truly understand what I was dealing with.***

This is so painful. I have learned a lot from your old threads...

***This doesn't mean for sure your WAW is going to pursue OM. That's not my point. My point is that you need to reread your last few posts and look at all of the times you try to draw conclusions or logical building blocks of where you thing things stand in an effort to draw conclusions based on words she has spoken to you. She almost has you convinced that she really loves you and wants to be married, she finds it tragic she cannot be, she wishes she could spend the rest of her life with you, but just not right now, she needs space and time to reflect...***

Yes, yes, yes, you are a mind reader! I try to be logical...thank you for the reminder that logic does not apply...

***it all sounds good, only that little part about separating and divorcing and seeing other people, but she didn't sound like she really wanted it, she's just confused, she still loves me, I'll be a good boy and maybe she'll see how crazy this is and snap out of it...meanwhile she's living a double (or triple or quadruple) life and hiding so much you wouldn't even recognize her if you truly knew what was going through her head. She's created another entire reality with OM, and right now she's invested much, much more in that one.***

Wow, that's a lot of 2x4s in one paragraph...thanks? Yes, thanks.

***OK, I've said it every way I can say it. Denial's difficult to overcome. Detachment is hard. I know you're doing your best to open your eyes. Maybe a certain amount of time and pain has to ensue before this is fully possible. Hang in G.***

Denial? Yes. Maybe legally separating and moving out will be good for me? Zues126--thank you...

[Gordie]

Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her.

KentS,

This really hit me like a 2x4. I have done almost nothing to build a life that does not include my W. This is important homework for me to consider and needs to be done.

[Zues126]

G, not trying to be the 2x4 guy. Just know if I don't go on about my respect for you as a person, my sympathy for what you're going through, and patting you on the back for the good you've done, well, that's all implied. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't think all of this was the case.

I talked about what not to do, but didn't talk much about what TO do. Kent is right on.

One question I think is a crucial compass is "What would I do if I knew 100% that my M was never going to be saved?" If you take away the desire to show WAS your changes, to try to steer her back to the M, or to try to do whatever you can to save the M...what's left?

This doesn't mean you should see other people or let her have it with angry words because you don't care anymore. That's not the person you want to be. But who would you want to be?

Start thinking about the answer to this question, and let this guide you every day. It may seem strange because you want to save your M, not give up on it, but giving up on it and moving forward on your own is the best thing you can do for you regardless of how she responds and what the future holds.

[Gordie]

KentS: start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life…Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it.

Zues126: “What would I do if I knew 100% that my M was never going to be saved?” If you take away the desire to show WAS your changes, to try to steer her back to the M, or to try to do whatever you can to save the M…what’s left? …It may seem strange because you want to save your M, not give up on it, but giving up on it and moving forward on your own is the best thing you can do for you regardless of how she responds…

Thank you guys, that’s a lot to contemplate. And the sad truth is…I haven’t really thought that much about it…need to think more about it, but here’s a start:

*Stop doing so much for my W (I never say no to her requests, even now); stop letting W’s actions/moods dictate my actions/moods (DETACHMENT); stop pouring so much of my emotional energy into my marital R (which doesn’t leave any emotional energy for anything else, LETTING GO)

*Continue being an active and engaged Dad on a day-to-day basis; continue my professional development/success (and take more risks); continue my focus on health/fitness (in the best shape of my life)

*Physically separate; rent an apartment; set it up in a way that would be warm and comfortable for me and the kids; start saving like crazy so I can buy my own place sooner than later. Re-engage in my artistic/creative endeavors that have largely been ignored post-M and kids. Contrary to my savings goal, I’d love to travel more, go to places that I've always wanted to see...

[Gordie]

Also, wanted to post one follow-up item which was discussed with all of you in a prior thread which is how to handle continued physical intimacy during these troubled times? I've been re-reading DR and here's what I found on page 292:

"If your spouse is estranged or even separated and she seems interest in being physical or making love, by all means, go for it! Even if your spouse has said, "I don't love you anymore," don't necessarily believe it (my W has not said that). Don't reject the idea of ML simply because your spouse is confused and trying to figure out whether she should stay in the M or not. She may be wondering if she can ever have feelings of love for you again. Sometimes being sexual reminds people of the love they have for their partners. It is the glue that pulls them together. Take advantage of this opportunity to physically connect if your spouse is willing. Don't push it, but if the occasion arises, don't turn your back on it either. ML may be just what it takes to remind your W that your marriage is worth keeping. It's hard to feel distant when your touching and caressing your life partner. Put your pride aside. Suspend your doubt and insecurity. Let passion connect you and bring back those loving feelings."

[Woke_Up]

Gordie, just caught up - great re-cap, open and honest. I feel for you man, I see the similarities with some of my sitch, and with others. If you ever figure out how to stop doing things for your W when she asks, let me know! I'm terrible at that part.

Anyway, Zues and kentS advice is wise. You have some great future plans, focus on those. It's so easy to let go of the things that gave you passion and made you feel alive... I'm trying to get some of those back. I left them behind mostly due to W resenting me pursuing them while she felt trapped into looking after kids. I wasn't overly appreciative of her position.

This forum has been great for making me examine myself. Anyway, you are doing great. Believe that. There's good days. There's bad days. And the majority are 'meh' days, where you survive, and think about the kids.

Your analysis is good, but I'm quite sure what the others say about not reading into W's statements is true. They don't know what they want, so we cannot know, whatever they say.

Stay strong, I'll keep following your sitch.

[PsySara]

Gordie,
I have very mixed feelings about ML when a spouse in another relationship, after all that's how I contracted an STD. MWD is putting out a new book specifically to deal with infidelity at the end of this month so I wonder if she will alter that particular POV?

I've been reading a lot of old threads and there was a veteran named Gucci Loafer and he had interesting POV when it came to drawing a wife back in, one that dovetailed with MWD's POV. He said that the number one way to get a girl back was to show that you were dsirable to other women. While he didn't suggest dating while still married he did encourage men to go out and flirt a little, just to build their own confidence back. While I am not a man there does seem to be a double effect when men flirt, they become more confident (and thus attractive) as well as the WAW realizes her LBS is not pining and waiting for her to come back. She will realize the window is closing and suddenly that guy she felt nothing for seems like he's about to become "the one that got away."

Some of the approaches appear a bit different from a female perspective but I did notice when the pursuing stopped from me my WH turned back towards me. I started living my life more independently, I started going to the gym and running. This helped my mood immensely but also was a 180 for ME. I did it for ME and not to draw WH back. I also started calling friends and chatting on the phone, not being home when WH came home from work, going on trips and being a bit mysterious about my whereabouts. I still am keeping some space between us even though WH asked last week to start piecing. Believe NOTHING they say and only half of what they do. I can't look to his words to determine my course.