Gordie: Pulling it all together

[Gordie]

Okay, decided I needed to take a step back and see where I've been so that I can make the right decisions about going forward...things are better, but I'm still headed for separation and/or divorce...

With heavy plagiarism from Divorce Remedy, Chapter 9:

Pulling it all together

Gordie and W were married for twenty years and had five children, elementary to high school age. They were college sweethearts, committed Christians, and our first loves. Gordie had very fond memories of their early years of marriage but admitted that he and W had grown apart for quite some time. Nevertheless, he didn’t see their distance as a crisis. He was a hard worker and provided well for his family. He didn’t drink or stay out late with the guys and he was faithful. In other words, he thought he was a pretty good husband and father.

For the first fifteen years, W sas a SAHM who, to him, seemed content with her involvement with the children and their daily lives. After baby #5, W started to make some changes. She lost weight and got in shape; she started exploring other religious beliefs; she made new friends (mostly single and divorced women); and she decided she wanted to work outside the home and start her own business. All of these changes made Gordie anxious, but he supported her, but not as much as he could have: he took a lot more responsibility for childcare on the weekends so that W could explore her new interests; he paid for her to take classes and travel; and he funded her new business.

That’s why Gordie was shocked when W announced that she no longer wanted to be married. W initially told Gordie that he had been a great husband and father and that he didn’t do anything wrong, but that they had just drifted apart. Later, in an angry outburst, W told Gordie that he didn’t listen to her, understand her and support her. Why did he get to have a rich, rewarding career while she was at home raising the children and being a homemaker? And when Gordie asked her why if she had been so unhappy she hadn’t told him, she grew furious, stating that she had tried for many years to get through to him but apparently he hadn’t been listening. Later still, W said that she was in love with two men at the same time--Gordie and a 22 year old employee--though she stated that there had been no physical relationship so far. Gordie was devastated.

He fantasized about running away or killing himself, just to end the pain of dealing with this nightmare, but he knew that both options would be cowardly and only make things worse. Although still devastated, Gordie decided to try to sort through his feelings and start the seven-step program to save his marriage.

Step Number 1 –Start with a beginner’s mind

Gordie had some unlearning to do. When W told him of her discontent, he vacillated between intense anger and desperation. His anger stemmed from the fact that he believed that he had been a near-perfect husband and that W had temporarily lost her mind. He felt like a victim and he was furious.

Gordie had to learn that regardless of what he thought about their marriage, W had a different perspective and he had to do some soul searching to try to understand why W has been so unhappy. As long as Gordie continued to play the blame game, he risked W walking out the door. Even if he found her perspective hard to follow, he needed to make every effort to be more empathetic—quickly. He also needed to accept that, whether he liked it or not, he was going to have to take responsibility for turning things around in their marriage. He had to internalize the notion that one person can change a marriage singlehandedly and that one person had to be him.

Step Number 2—Know what you want

Original Goals
Goal 1—I want my W to stay married to me
*She will stop bringing up D in conversation
*When she talks about the future, I want to be included
*She will give me words of affirmation

Goal 2—W has to get the POM out of her life
*W will acknowledge that his presence is not good for our M
*W will say that she will stop going out to lunch with him and buying him presents
*W will say talk about them not working together

Goal 3—I want us to be happy together
*We will go on weekly dates together
*We will go on vacation together, just the two of us
*W will initiate sex with me

Step Number 3—Ask for what you want

Gordie didn’t want to pursue or initiate a R discussion, so he planned out what he wanted to say and waited until W initiated a R discussion. Despite his best efforts, things did not go well. W told Gordie that she had been unhappy for a very long time and that he refused to spend what remained of his life in a miserable situation. W told Gordie that because she didn’t feel close, that she usually felt used when they had sex. W couldn’t fathom how insensitive Gordie had been to her feelings. W also informed Gordie that she had no intention of ending the relationship with POM, instead she wanted to foster and consummate it, that she could see herself marring him and having the relationship that she always wanted.

In the days that followed, Gordie reconsidered his commitment to their marriage. He was so surprised at W’s reactions and the vehemence with which he stated them that he began to wonder whether W was still the same women he married years ago. He questioned why he would even want to stay in a marriage with a W who wasn’t ready to drop the POM immediately. He felt he was losing touch with reality and felt desperate. He felt so much shame about his situation that he felt there was no one to whom he could turn. He was at a loss.

He thought more about his marriage, reflected on their shared history, the happy times, their children, and a sadness overwhelmed him. He also thought about the commitment they had made to each other and to God on the day of their wedding—until death do us part. So, for better or for worse, Gordie decided that he was going to stop fighting with W and star fighting for their marriage. Realizing that Step 3 didn’t bring about positive results, he had to proceed with Step Number 4—Going down cheeseless tunnels.

Step Number 4—Going down cheeseless tunnels

Gordie realized that his marriage was truly on shaky ground. If he pushed W too much, he recognized that W would be right out the door. In fact, he believed that W would probably seek solace with the POM. This was the last thing he wanted. It was enormously difficult for him to restrain himself from really letting her have it about his immoral and irresponsible behavior, but he knew that if he were to hound her about the POM or anything else, their marriage probably wouldn’t survive. He made a choice to become solution-oriented rather than to allow his emotions to be his guide. Gordie recognized that if his marriage had a chance of surviving, he would have to look inward and change himself first. This was a truly humbling experience for him, especially because he felt so raw.
He also recognized that, as unfair and unreasonable as it might be, it was Goride who had to woo his W back. Because W had allowed his negative feelings about their marriage to fester too long, she was less motivated to work on their marriage than he was. Gordie decided to be realistic about his predicament. Gordie was going to have to take the lead.

Gordie realized that there was more merit in what W had been saying to him. In the early years of their marriage, they spent all of their free time together and talked endlessly. As time passed and their lives diverged, days, weeks, months could pass without meaningful conversation or alone time or date nights. When W started to make changes in her life, Gordie was emotionally anxious and either ignored what was happening or was critical instead of listening, understanding and being supportive. He vowed to stop criticizing and finding reasons to listen and compliment W whenever possible.

Gordie figured out that pressuring W to cut off all contact with POM was premature. From what W said, it was clear she wasn’t ready to commit to their marriage. Gordie knew that if W cornered, W would probably opt to pursue POM even if, in the long run, it wasn’t in his or anyone’s best interests. He knew that insisting upon an ultimatum was not going to work in his favor. So, as impossible as it seemed to him at the time, he promised himself that he would put the POM issue on the back burner for the time being.

At the same time, Gordie had taken to heart what W had been saying about their marital intimacy. He wasn’t quite sure what to do but he knew that something needed to change. He didn’t want W to feel used and he knew that sometimes they still had very passionate lovemaking, so all was not lost. He decided he would stop initiating and let her come to him.

In summary, Gordie determined that these were the more of the same behaviors that he needed to stop immediately:
*Being critical and negative
*Pressuring W to end her relationship with POM
*Initiating sex

Then Gordie asked himself, what should I do instead? He was ready for Step Number 5.

Step Number 5—Experiment and monitor results

Weeks one and two

Gordie decided to follow the advice outlined in a Do a 180. For Gordie, Doing a 180 meant that, even in his state of confusion, anger, and resentment, he try to spend quality time with W every day, attentively listening to her; and to be more loving, understanding, affectionate and appreciate of W.
He wrote down what he wanted to tell W, explaining that he finally understood why she was feeling so distant from her. He assumed responsibility for behaviors that increased the distance between them, like not spending enough time together, fearing and being critical of change, and emotionally disconnected sexual relations that left her feeling used. He asked for forgiveness. He also complimented her on the positive changes she had made in her life to be healthy, to look great, to start her own business.

He waited to share these things the next time she initiated a R discussion. It was his hope that these words would demonstrate that he was really listening to her and taking her words to heart and taking responsibility for his failures in their marriage.
Gordie had his hopes up that this conversation would be a turning point, but unfortunately, it didn’t turn out that way. W listened carefully to what Gordie had to say, expressed appreciation for the fact that he said it, but felt like all of these changes and discussions were too little, too late. W said that she still loves Gordie, that they are soul mates, that they will always be connected, but that we have to get divorced for our relationship to grow, but that she is willing to risk everything in order to pursue a relationship with POM even if it doesn’t work out or else she will live the rest of her life with regret and what ifs.

W’s response upset Gordie tremendously. He had been feeling fairly certain that W would be responsive, but he was wrong. He started to imagine what his life would be like without her and the thought terrified him. Despite their problems, in his heart, Gordie always knew that they would be together forever. W was pulling the rug out from beneath his feet.

Weeks three and four

Gordie realized he had to get a grip on himself and stop pursuing W in any way. He had to devise a plan to deal with his feelings of insecurity. He decided to confide in a couple of friends about what was happening in his marriage. They were extremely supportive and this comforted him tremendously.

Rather than work on their marital problems, W kept her distance. They weren’t fighting, but they weren’t talking about their R either. Gordie realized that if their marriage was going to get back on track, it was not going to be a speedy process. He tried to prepare for the long journey back to feeling close again. He decided that he would have to be more patient, more patient that he had ever been before, and that he would have to let W know that she was going to be his friend while he went on his own journey.

He knew that, no matter how hard it was for him to do, he needed to give her space to sort things out his way. Gordie needed to get back on track and stick to his plan of backing off.

Weeks five to eight

During the next three weeks, Gordie and W had several ups and downs. When he gave her space and avoided R discussions, things were calm. When he voiced any discontent or questioned her at all about her actions or intentions, things deteriorated. On one hand, the calm felt better than the storm, but he also felt that he was sweeping things under the carpet. W started initiating more R discussions and opening up more about her anger, her fears, her desires, her frustrations, and her resentments. Gordie listened and validated. At the end of the eight weeks, W initiated sex for the first time since BD and it was glorious.

Months three and four

Over the next two months, Gordie saw continued signs of improvement. Gordie and W were spending more time together. W started texting and calling him. W started flirting and W was initiating sex more often. W expressed feeling closer, but that hasn’t changed her mind about wanting to S or D. Lawyers have been called and they are actively working on the separation agreement.

Step Number 6—Take stock

Q. On a one-to-ten scale, where on the scale would you say you were prior to starting the program?
Two
Q. Where on the scale would you say you are right now?
Five/Six
Q. Are you satisfied?
No
Q. How much time would have to pass without major setbacks in order for me to feel that these changes are permanent ones?
I’m not sure how to answer this question because of pending separation or divorce and POM.

[Gordie]

Prior thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2722615#Post2722615

[010207]

I'm new and certainly no expert Gordie. But to me this sounds positive. I say keep doing what you're doing. Everyone says this is a long road. Sounds like you're on the right track.

Sounds like she's teetering on the fence. I think the fact that you're having sex and she's initiating it is huge. Sex for most women is emotional. I think if she was really done, she wouldn't be doing that.

I hope I'm right! Lots of luck

[ForGump]

Great recap, Gordie!

[Gordie]

010207--Thanks for the encouragement. I'm trying to enjoy the improvement in our relationship and live in the present but it's really hard not to think about the pending separation and divorce.

ForGump--Thanks. I wish I could fix some of the typos and mixed up gender pronouns but it was a good thought exercise to see where I've been, the commonality in my twists and turns, and a reminder of the DB/DR steps.

[maly]

Hi Gordie,be care full she could be cake eating with you,hope not but could be,all this happened with my w thought she was coming round ,even telling me she loved me every day,but in the end I learned she was cake eating,but she had me fooled,

[Gordie]

Thanks and sorry to hear that happened to you. I know that cake eating is a distinct possibility. In fact, she says that's what she wants--both of us! She's not hiding that. Has anyone else faced this? I've had one R discussion of not wanting to be in a three way relationship but we haven't spoken of it in months since I decided speaking of POM was not doing any good.

[maly]

Also at the time she was saying I love you every day to me,we was getting on really well so I thought good sex and everything ,then one day I had a gut feeling,and followed her,and she went to hotel with om that's when I found out she was cake eating,not spoke to her since that day was in July,that kinda knocked me out,I was broken,in shock,you name it I felt it cried for 2 weeks dident eat,I'm a lot better now,but she tottaly blindsided me and betrayed me,

[Gordie]

I was reading an old thread over in MLC by fisherman and got struck by something the said about his W that applies to my W:

She doesn't share her feelings easily. In her childhood, she learned that good girls don't share their true feelings but do what they are told. My W has alluded to that and think that was the fatal flaw in her mother's R with her father.

When these realizations come to you, do you discuss them with your spouse? Would it help to show empathy and understanding or is this something better to remain unspoken.

[KentS]

Hi Gordie!

Its been years since I visited my old hangout. I read your threads and wanted to tell you to be proud of your progress. Regardless of your W's choices, you will be a better man for it, you will have the strength to move onward and upward. I hope you are making time for yourself aside from focusing on your M. This is vitally important for your sanity.

Kent

[Seeker7]

It's funny you mention that about her childhood because I just picked up a new book on codependency and love addiction. I started to read it and it described so much about my W and it talks about how it starts by things in their childhood. I realized that there were two major things I know that would have done this.

One thing I know is that even though that I understand it I do not know enough about it to be of much use let alone be able to help her recover from it.

What I would do is not discus it with her because it is just the male mentality trying to be mister fix it when women just want to be understood. I would just show empathy and be understanding if it is brought up by her. Just remember she is in a very delicate state right now and does not want to be fixed by no one.

[Gordie]

KentS--thanks for the encouragement; If your threads are still on here, I will check them out; what has happened in the years since?

Seeker7--you are spot on; she doesn't want me to fix her, but just to listen to her and understand her, thanks for pointing that out.

Yesterday, I re read the DR section on infidelity and one of the exercises MWD encourages you to do if W doesn't want to give up partner is to ask: what is it about the OM that your W finds so attractive? Here is the humbling answer: he is like our old dog, always positive, no complaints, a great listener, doesn't criticize, obedient, doesn't question, always available, happy to just be in your presence.

[Gordie]

Funny but true comment from the W: you are really bad about initiating R talks! Ha ha ha, if she only knew.

The bad news is we're finalizing our separation agreement and I'll be moving into an apartment in the coming weeks.

The good news is that W brought up the POM last night and said she isn't ready to engage in a serious R with him yet. She says she needs to focus on herself and her business and financial independence.

This is the first time we have discussed POM since I decided not to discuss him two months ago. It took all of my self will to just listen and not ask why or what happened or start taking a victory lap around the house.

I know, believe none of what they say, but I'm thrilled.

[Seeker7]

Well that is good news about the W. It sounds like she is having second thoughts but as you said below. That was a good idea to keep your mouth shut and just listen. Just keep doing what you are doing.

[KentS]

Hey there Gordie!

Looks like most the vintage forum posts are gone. Maybe a few exist in the archives and under success stories.

Been married 23 years now. One kid married and gone, two 20 somethings remain. We live in rural America now next to small town USA.

DW and I are starting to plan for our next adventure normally called retirement. Unfortunately, we are not normal. Been looking at northern KY and AR to build or buy the retirement ranch.

Marriage relationships change over time. Most important is to give DW space to grow and do the stuff she wants to be and do. When I look back at the early years, the failure, the heartbreak, the struggle, I attribute it to my belief that when we married, we became one, like the bible states. Unfortunately, my perspective was a bit off. God gives each of us free will which we use to satisfy and fulfill our individual lives. We can't give that up or we begin to die. You can't expect your spouse to give it up either.

Life is so short. I have become anxious as I feel it slipping away day by day. I don't want to waste a moment of it embroiled in the push/pull of trying to control a relationship. The best choice, I ever made was to drop the rope and focus on my own goals, knowing I could never succeed at controlling my spouse. Next thing I knew, 15 years have disappeared and we are still together by choice.

Marriage is never easy once you get past the breeding stage. Love is about commitment and it is a deliberate decision. The feelings of love change like waves breaking on the beach. They are unreliable and cannot be trusted.

You can't make choices for your W and any attempt to figure her out will fail. If you are separating by her decision, I say separate. She needs a taste of life without you covering for her, financing her, enabling her. On the other hand, you will be awesome with all you have learned in this experience. Once you leave, it may not be over, but you need to establish boundaries for your own sanity.

Don't waste a moment of life my friend.

[ForGump]

Gordie-- sorry to hear you're separating.

POM-- again, your W's feelings are real, but he's a delusion.

[Gordie]

KentS,

Congratulations on 23 years and the retirement ranch plans! Awesome. Either you are wise or have been eavesdropping.

My W said she felt like she died in our M so to her, she has fulfilled until death do we part.

Yes, I can't control my W and she is insisting on this separation and probably divorce because she says she needs to be free. It just breaks my heart to lose what is most important to me--my wife and my intact family.

I agree love is a commitment and a decision, not a feeling. The strange thing is, W says she is still in love with me. But I do think she questions and wants to test what she will choose and decide to do once our present M is over--choices and decisions she feels she is not free to make now.

I believe and have communicated that there is no love in an involuntary union and that both parties must freely choose it. I hope W chooses to unite with me at a later point but fully accept that she is not doing so at present.

What are your suggestions re boundaries?

[Gordie]

So W and I are discussing S agreement last night. We agree on almost everything. W says something which ticks me off and I respond in a way that ticks her off. Ugh. Then she says, this is why I want a D! Ugh. She explains why she was ticked off and I apologize but her feelings are hurt and my feelings are hurt.

W: do you know why I told you why I was ticked off?
Me: yes, because you were ticked off
W: and I wouldn't have told you that in the past
Me: so you would have held it in?
W: yes, and then what would have happened?
Me: you would be angry and resentful
W: so do you know why I told you?
Me: so you can express your feelings, let go of them, and change the way I talk to you?
W: yes (and then she gives me a long hug)

W is opening up to me and making efforts to work on our issues...yet, we're full speed ahead to separation and probably D...W keeps telling me she loves me and our R will be better after we separate...

LET HER GO...detach, don't pursue, be there for my kids, don't give up love, don't give up hope...maybe I can be one of those that reconciles after separation and divorce?

[Gordie]

Need to vent:

Some days I'm good; today I'm not so good. I'm not detached. I'm still letting W's moods dictate how I am feeling. One day she is warm and friendly; the next she is icy cold. Ugh. I'm still on her roller coaster. I'm not calling or texting her, but I still check my phone 10x a day hoping that she is reaching out to me. My expectations are still >0. Finally, given our 20 year marriage, her lack of income, and our large number of children, the separation agreement numbers are looking to be terrible for me. Ugh.

[PacLove]

Gordie,

These days are completely natural - I had plenty of ups and downs over the last 2 years. days where I was waiting for her texts and days where I barely thought of her and was able to detach.

The fact that she's opening up to you on feelings and being transparent is a good sign. Give her the space. Hold out hope but at the same time work on yourself and try not to focus on her but on the positive change you can bring about in yourself.

[KentS]

Boundaries that show a change in our fido like behavior. You gotta stop responding whenever she whistles. Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life. Perhaps you can start by not responding to texts and calls on demand. Your above confession illustrates you have been unsuccessful at stepping away.

You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash. You don't need to be mean or disrespectful, just unavailable.

Sorry if I don't seem real luvy duvy. From your last post, it is safe to say you appear to be enabling her behavior and disrespect for the marriage.

In my own story, I handled the love you but not in love a bit different than many. When I got the sad story that W never got to be on her own, live her own life, my response was supportive in that I offered to help her pack and not to worry as the kids and I will be fine. I never accepted or enabled indecision on w's part. It was very risky, but brief. I watched others on this BB go thru the saga for years.

Eventually, the DB process leads the spouse still working on the M to more advanced actions like the LRT. Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it.

The question is "How much longer do you do what hasn't worked?"

Only you can decide.

When the marriage starts to heal, it is obvious. She will say, she wants to try. That is when you begin to DB your butt off.

[Gordie]

***You gotta stop responding whenever she whistles. Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life. Perhaps you can start by not responding to texts and calls on demand. Your above confession illustrates you have been unsuccessful at stepping away. ***

Truth

***You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash.***

Yes, but the latest is she feels she isn't ready for a new romantic R. I thought after we separated that the new R with POM would be pursued but now I'm not sure.

***You don't need to be mean or disrespectful, just unavailable.***

Thanks

***Sorry if I don't seem real luvy duvy. From your last post, it is safe to say you appear to be enabling her behavior and disrespect for the marriage. ***

How?

***In my own story, I handled the love you but not in love a bit different than many.***

W has never said that. W says she is still in love with me.

***When I got the sad story that W never got to be on her own, live her own life, my response was supportive in that I offered to help her pack and not to worry as the kids and I will be fine. I never accepted or enabled indecision on w's part. It was very risky, but brief.***

Wow

***I watched others on this BB go thru the saga for years. ***

I am afraid of that.

***Eventually, the DB process leads the spouse still working on the M to more advanced actions like the LRT. Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it. The question is "How much longer do you do what hasn't worked?" Only you can decide.***

What wasn't working for me was being emotionally disconnected and not investing enough of myself in my W and our R. I think what I have been doing has worked to rekindle that connection...but clearly not enough to want my W to remain M, as there are other MLC issues beyond me.

***When the marriage starts to heal, it is obvious. She will say, she wants to try. That is when you begin to DB your butt off.***

I can only hope to hear that some day.

[Zues126]

***You really need to let her be alone with her drama. If it is OM she wants, you can't prevent it. She needs to experience him in her face all the time before the dream can crash.***

Yes, but the latest is she feels she isn't ready for a new romantic R. I thought after we separated that the new R with POM would be pursued but now I'm not sure.

I didn't respond the other day when you posted your WAW said this bit about the OM, but this is the 2nd time you've mentioned it so here I go:

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

An affair is like a drug. Have you ever heard someone say they want to quit using? Or quit drinking? Or quit smoking? At the time those words are uttered they are true, but that is all they are - WORDS. In fact, there is the idea of 'medicating with positive intent', meaning that someone feels bad, so they talk about how bad they feel and how they are going to do something about it, and then this self talk encourages them and they stop feeling so bad, so then they decide to do nothing after all.

Bottom line, you simply can't continue to take her statements as literal, logical, or progressive. You're dealing with the equivalent of an addict. She will use your love for her as a way to manipulate you, string you along, get you to believe what she wants you to. Yes, she is capable of this, because she is an addict.

I went through it. I have email chains I've reread watching XW spin her tales of how she just wanted FREEDOM, and to be able to BE HERSELF, and the last thing she wanted was another R! I won't even tell you what I went through because it doesn't matter. But if you read my last post on qt's thread you'll see it was a good thing, because it allowed me to truly understand what I was dealing with.

This doesn't mean for sure your WAW is going to pursue OM. That's not my point. My point is that you need to reread your last few posts and look at all of the times you try to draw conclusions or logical building blocks of where you thing things stand in an effort to draw conclusions based on words she has spoken to you. She almost has you convinced that she really loves you and wants to be married, she finds it tragic she cannot be, she wishes she could spend the rest of her life with you, but just not right now, she needs space and time to reflect...it all sounds good, only that little part about separating and divorcing and seeing other people, but she didn't sound like she really wanted it, she's just confused, she still loves me, I'll be a good boy and maybe she'll see how crazy this is and snap out of it...meanwhile she's living a double (or triple or quadruple) life and hiding so much you wouldn't even recognize her if you truly knew what was going through her head. She's created another entire reality with OM, and right now she's invested much, much more in that one.

OK, I've said it every way I can say it. Denial's difficult to overcome. Detachment is hard. I know you're doing your best to open your eyes. Maybe a certain amount of time and pain has to ensue before this is fully possible. Hang in G.

[Gordie]

***Bottom line, you simply can't continue to take her statements as literal, logical, or progressive. You're dealing with the equivalent of an addict. She will use your love for her as a way to manipulate you, string you along, get you to believe what she wants you to. Yes, she is capable of this, because she is an addict.***

Thank you for these truth darts. Of course, I truly want in my heart to believe my situation is different (she freely admitted to me that she loved POM (no snooping on my part) but hadn't acted on it and doesn't want to act on it until we are separated or divorced (which sandi2 even says is the right thing to do)...says she still loves me, yet also loves the POM at the same time...I know, just words, but she never gave me the ILYBNILWY), but I know in my head you are probably right...

***I went through it. I have email chains I've reread watching XW spin her tales of how she just wanted FREEDOM, and to be able to BE HERSELF, and the last thing she wanted was another R! I won't even tell you what I went through because it doesn't matter. But if you read my last post on qt's thread you'll see it was a good thing, because it allowed me to truly understand what I was dealing with.***

This is so painful. I have learned a lot from your old threads...

***This doesn't mean for sure your WAW is going to pursue OM. That's not my point. My point is that you need to reread your last few posts and look at all of the times you try to draw conclusions or logical building blocks of where you thing things stand in an effort to draw conclusions based on words she has spoken to you. She almost has you convinced that she really loves you and wants to be married, she finds it tragic she cannot be, she wishes she could spend the rest of her life with you, but just not right now, she needs space and time to reflect...***

Yes, yes, yes, you are a mind reader! I try to be logical...thank you for the reminder that logic does not apply...

***it all sounds good, only that little part about separating and divorcing and seeing other people, but she didn't sound like she really wanted it, she's just confused, she still loves me, I'll be a good boy and maybe she'll see how crazy this is and snap out of it...meanwhile she's living a double (or triple or quadruple) life and hiding so much you wouldn't even recognize her if you truly knew what was going through her head. She's created another entire reality with OM, and right now she's invested much, much more in that one.***

Wow, that's a lot of 2x4s in one paragraph...thanks? Yes, thanks.

***OK, I've said it every way I can say it. Denial's difficult to overcome. Detachment is hard. I know you're doing your best to open your eyes. Maybe a certain amount of time and pain has to ensue before this is fully possible. Hang in G.***

Denial? Yes. Maybe legally separating and moving out will be good for me? Zues126--thank you...

[Gordie]

Step outside her drama and start to build a life that does not include her.

KentS,

This really hit me like a 2x4. I have done almost nothing to build a life that does not include my W. This is important homework for me to consider and needs to be done.

[Zues126]

G, not trying to be the 2x4 guy. Just know if I don't go on about my respect for you as a person, my sympathy for what you're going through, and patting you on the back for the good you've done, well, that's all implied. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't think all of this was the case.

I talked about what not to do, but didn't talk much about what TO do. Kent is right on.

One question I think is a crucial compass is "What would I do if I knew 100% that my M was never going to be saved?" If you take away the desire to show WAS your changes, to try to steer her back to the M, or to try to do whatever you can to save the M...what's left?

This doesn't mean you should see other people or let her have it with angry words because you don't care anymore. That's not the person you want to be. But who would you want to be?

Start thinking about the answer to this question, and let this guide you every day. It may seem strange because you want to save your M, not give up on it, but giving up on it and moving forward on your own is the best thing you can do for you regardless of how she responds and what the future holds.

[Gordie]

KentS: start to build a life that does not include her. Once the separation happens, you need to be able to fully integrate into a new life…Eventually, you will take control of your life away from her. She needs to see you moving to independence to understand that she is losing you. Then she can decide if she cares enough to do something about it.

Zues126: “What would I do if I knew 100% that my M was never going to be saved?” If you take away the desire to show WAS your changes, to try to steer her back to the M, or to try to do whatever you can to save the M…what’s left? …It may seem strange because you want to save your M, not give up on it, but giving up on it and moving forward on your own is the best thing you can do for you regardless of how she responds…

Thank you guys, that’s a lot to contemplate. And the sad truth is…I haven’t really thought that much about it…need to think more about it, but here’s a start:

*Stop doing so much for my W (I never say no to her requests, even now); stop letting W’s actions/moods dictate my actions/moods (DETACHMENT); stop pouring so much of my emotional energy into my marital R (which doesn’t leave any emotional energy for anything else, LETTING GO)

*Continue being an active and engaged Dad on a day-to-day basis; continue my professional development/success (and take more risks); continue my focus on health/fitness (in the best shape of my life)

*Physically separate; rent an apartment; set it up in a way that would be warm and comfortable for me and the kids; start saving like crazy so I can buy my own place sooner than later. Re-engage in my artistic/creative endeavors that have largely been ignored post-M and kids. Contrary to my savings goal, I’d love to travel more, go to places that I've always wanted to see...

[Gordie]

Also, wanted to post one follow-up item which was discussed with all of you in a prior thread which is how to handle continued physical intimacy during these troubled times? I've been re-reading DR and here's what I found on page 292:

"If your spouse is estranged or even separated and she seems interest in being physical or making love, by all means, go for it! Even if your spouse has said, "I don't love you anymore," don't necessarily believe it (my W has not said that). Don't reject the idea of ML simply because your spouse is confused and trying to figure out whether she should stay in the M or not. She may be wondering if she can ever have feelings of love for you again. Sometimes being sexual reminds people of the love they have for their partners. It is the glue that pulls them together. Take advantage of this opportunity to physically connect if your spouse is willing. Don't push it, but if the occasion arises, don't turn your back on it either. ML may be just what it takes to remind your W that your marriage is worth keeping. It's hard to feel distant when your touching and caressing your life partner. Put your pride aside. Suspend your doubt and insecurity. Let passion connect you and bring back those loving feelings."

[Woke_Up]

Gordie, just caught up - great re-cap, open and honest. I feel for you man, I see the similarities with some of my sitch, and with others. If you ever figure out how to stop doing things for your W when she asks, let me know! I'm terrible at that part.

Anyway, Zues and kentS advice is wise. You have some great future plans, focus on those. It's so easy to let go of the things that gave you passion and made you feel alive... I'm trying to get some of those back. I left them behind mostly due to W resenting me pursuing them while she felt trapped into looking after kids. I wasn't overly appreciative of her position.

This forum has been great for making me examine myself. Anyway, you are doing great. Believe that. There's good days. There's bad days. And the majority are 'meh' days, where you survive, and think about the kids.

Your analysis is good, but I'm quite sure what the others say about not reading into W's statements is true. They don't know what they want, so we cannot know, whatever they say.

Stay strong, I'll keep following your sitch.

[PsySara]

Gordie,
I have very mixed feelings about ML when a spouse in another relationship, after all that's how I contracted an STD. MWD is putting out a new book specifically to deal with infidelity at the end of this month so I wonder if she will alter that particular POV?

I've been reading a lot of old threads and there was a veteran named Gucci Loafer and he had interesting POV when it came to drawing a wife back in, one that dovetailed with MWD's POV. He said that the number one way to get a girl back was to show that you were dsirable to other women. While he didn't suggest dating while still married he did encourage men to go out and flirt a little, just to build their own confidence back. While I am not a man there does seem to be a double effect when men flirt, they become more confident (and thus attractive) as well as the WAW realizes her LBS is not pining and waiting for her to come back. She will realize the window is closing and suddenly that guy she felt nothing for seems like he's about to become "the one that got away."

Some of the approaches appear a bit different from a female perspective but I did notice when the pursuing stopped from me my WH turned back towards me. I started living my life more independently, I started going to the gym and running. This helped my mood immensely but also was a 180 for ME. I did it for ME and not to draw WH back. I also started calling friends and chatting on the phone, not being home when WH came home from work, going on trips and being a bit mysterious about my whereabouts. I still am keeping some space between us even though WH asked last week to start piecing. Believe NOTHING they say and only half of what they do. I can't look to his words to determine my course.

[Rose888]

Sara, I agree that spouses need to be protective of their health.

The quote that Gordie posted doesn't talk about a spouse that is having sex with someone else. It only mentions a spouse who is estranged or confused.

When I have posted positively about ML with a spouse, it has not been in situations where the spouse is suspected of having a PA.

[Gordie]

Sara, I agree that spouses need to be protective of their health.

The quote that Gordie posted doesn't talk about a spouse that is having sex with someone else. It only mentions a spouse who is estranged or confused.

When I have posted positively about ML with a spouse, it has not been in situations where the spouse is suspected of having a PA.

PsySara and Rose,

I agree re ML when the spouse is not in an active PA, thanks for the thoughts and clarification. In my situation, I don't think my W is but recognize I may be wrong.

[Gordie]

Random updates:

Experiment and monitor results:

Making my W hot beverages in the morning and evening makes her happy and draws her closer to me, even when she is in a bad mood she accepts the act of service.

My W's favorite non sexual physical touch is massage. I stopped massages after BD as it seemed close to initiating sex but decided to experiment on this front. She has been very responsive and welcoming.

Doing more household chores seems to have no affect. No sign of appreciation or closeness no matter how much more I do. Maybe I haven't chosen the right chores or done them to my W's satisfaction. This needs more experimentation.

Detachment:

I've had a hard time from detaching from my W's moods but think I have made some progress. To me, they are like the weather. On days when W is warm and sunny, it is pleasant to be outside. When she is cold and stormy, I prefer to remain indoors. In either case, I can choose to have a good day no matter the weather. This is still a work in progress.

[Woke_Up]

Yesterday, I re read the DR section on infidelity and one of the exercises MWD encourages you to do if W doesn't want to give up partner is to ask: what is it about the OM that your W finds so attractive?

I find that a sticky one. I think it's good to know for when piecing is underway, I am not so sure what we can do about things while she is still wayward? In my case, OM is via online - always asks what she is thinking, always professing love & how profound it is, playing his guitar/singing songs for her (old fashioned wooing). I can take all of this on board, however, as the advice when she won't quit is pretty much LRT, then it has to be parked away for future reference. In your sitch, I don't know - if you can add some elements in without pursuing, then great, but you can't risk turning into an obedient and faithful dog just to try and please her. All the advice says it won't work, and it probably wouldn't work with her POM once reality came calling.

Keep hanging tough.

[Gordie]

I agree. I found the exercise to be helpful in that it made me realize that I can never be the faithful and obedient dog that she currently wants. It's just not me. Yes, I can be more attentive, I can enjoy being in her presence, I can be a better listener. The odd thing is that it's the opposite of what W was attracted to me in the first place: intellectual, a leader, driven. Now those things are turn offs. The POM represents the opposite: anti intellectual, a follower, not ambitious. My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that.

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

[Rose888]

I agree. I found the exercise to be helpful in that it made me realize that I can never be the faithful and obedient dog that she currently wants. It's just not me. Yes, I can be more attentive, I can enjoy being in her presence, I can be a better listener. The odd thing is that it's the opposite of what W was attracted to me in the first place: intellectual, a leader, driven. Now those things are turn offs. The POM represents the opposite: anti intellectual, a follower, not ambitious. My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that.

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

It sounds like you are implying women only respect alpha males.

Honestly, I can only tolerate alpha males in small doses, as a brief break from regular life. Any longer than that and I can't stand the arrogance.

Give me the calm, rationale, willing to consider another point of view, easy to work with beta male any day.

Confidence is not limited to alpha males. In fact, many "alpha males" I know seem to be trying to cover up their insecurities.

As for how you show your wife that you can be in a relationship with a strong woman . . . do you often complain about how she does things? When you spend time together, who picks the activity, restaurant, movie, etc? Do you "mansplain"? When she shares something donyou let her explain her point of view and really seek to understand what she is saying before you respond? If she comes to you with an issue, do you make sure she is done talking before you jump in with a fix? Do you make decisions collaboratively, or do you have the final say? What happens if you disagree on a major life issue?

Alpha and beta rank people relative to each other.

I give respect based on a person's character.

It's easy to respect a confident, collaborative beta male.

[Gordie]

One more thing: sandi2 has a good discussion of WW vs MLCW. I think the beta male/Mr nice guy/lack of respect seems more common in the WW threads. The MLC seems more independent of the spouse and the MLCW or H needs to go down their own path, which unfortunately appears to be a multi year process usually including infidelity. Many MLCers seem to go through this process and remain married if their LBS wants to stand. In my case, my W appears hell bent on separation and divorce to experience the independence she so desperately desires. What Hearts Blessing and other MLC survivors stress is that the LBS must go through his or her own maturation process or else mistakes will be repeated and R will be impossible.

[Gordie]

***It sounds like you are implying women only respect alpha males.***

Rose--thank you, as always. I don't think that but it seems that sandi2 and others think that which I have found surprising and part of why I am asking the question. I actually don't think I am strongly alpha or beta but somewhere in the middle.

***Honestly, I can only tolerate alpha males in small doses, as a brief break from regular life. Any longer than that and I can't stand the arrogance. Give me the calm, rationale, willing to consider another point of view, easy to work with beta male any day. Confidence is not limited to alpha males. In fact, many "alpha males" I know seem to be trying to cover up their insecurities.***

Thank you! I'm so glad to hear the other perspective on this. Awesome questions below.

***As for how you show your wife that you can be in a relationship with a strong woman . . . do you often complain about how she does things?***

W is super sensitive to any complaints or criticisms and she never says she's sorry so have learned it's not worth it. On little things, we agree to do things differently. On big things, we defer to each others' areas of responsibility (W home and children, me money, cars, etc,).

***When you spend time together, who picks the activity, restaurant, movie, etc?***

We are generally collaborative where I ask her what she wants to do/where she wants to go and then I take care of the logistics. On movies, our tastes differ so we don't go see movies together.

***Do you "mansplain"?***

Yes, I sometimes do this and my W resents it. This is an area where I'm trying to improve in terms of assuming she understands something unless she indicates otherwise.

***When she shares something donyou let her explain her point of view and really seek to understand what she is saying before you respond? If she comes to you with an issue, do you make sure she is done talking before you jump in with a fix?***

This is another area of complaint where I have tried to improve greatly. I have learned she just wants me to listen and not share my viewpoint at all unless requested.

***Do you make decisions collaboratively, or do you have the final say? What happens if you disagree on a major life issue?***

As per the above, we defer to each other's area of expertise. She has final say on some things and I have final say on others and we have not had major disagreements until recently.

***Alpha and beta rank people relative to each other. I give respect based on a person's character. It's easy to respect a confident, collaborative beta male.***

Thank you for those words of wisdom. I need to spend more time thinking about these issues and what you said.

[Woke_Up]

So many here say the W wants the strong man that she respects...well this is one W who is tired of the alpha male and wants to trade me in for a beta male. Any advice on this?

I think there is a stereotype of Alphas, when what we are talking about is leadership. You can be many types of leader. I read a good article on Husbandly leadership, maybe have a google for it. Leadership can come in a variety forms, and there is probably a right way and a wrong way of displaying leadership. My W thinks it is the bullying/bossy way and describes herself as an Alpha, whereas I tend to take a more collaborative and supportive approach, at least for work. I haven't necessarily worked out the right way to be a husbandly leader. More reading/research/practice required.

[KentS]

" My W wants to be the intellectual, the leader and the driven one in the R and thinks that both partners can't be that, at least that's my guess. How can I change or demonstrate that it is possible? At this stage, I'm afraid I can't because I am competing with her fantasy. She has to prove herself right or wrong on her own terms and being with me doesn't allow for that."

I believe it is simpler than what you are considering. Gordie has become the everyday ho hum. It does not matter if you are the greatest guy in the world or not. WAW's and/or WAH's have a long list of what is wrong with their spouse. We can all make that list if we choose to go there. Bottom line is your WAW has started down the path of separating from you. If this is not true, you would not be here.

You need to prepare yourself for the path that your W has chosen. You can still be respectful, you can still be somewhat available. However, you need to exercise control over your own future, your finances and your joy. In all things protect your emotional self.

You asked how you have enabled your W. It was your own admission that you were living to hear her ping you (tele calls and text post). For her to show some sign of love. Your hope is that somehow the nightmare will just go away. Problem is, you are not in control of her nightmare, her drama. At best, you can only control Gordie. Please focus on yourself and stop trying to figure your WAW out.

I agree with the earlier poster that you don't know the truth about W's relationship with OM. A WAW will not tell you the truth. Walk away spouses also continue to try to draw their spouse into the drama. At least until they feel emotionally and financially secure to pursue their fantasy.

Bottom line, is you can't do anything about your W's choices. You need to get strong, independent and start moving away from her. She needs to see it. You need to inject a little of your own choices into the equation to show it's not all about her. Stop letting the tail wag the Gordie dog.

I am in your corner Gordie. I am not so sure your WAW will turn back. Thus, I urge you to prepare and consider LRT's as I believe this saga needs to be upset. WAW needs to think her drama is about to become her reality, not yours.

All your growth and realization of how you blew it is great. It is necessary to confess sin and ask forgiveness. The spouse needs to honor the confession and be open to a path for healing. Unfortunately, many find it easier to give up and move on which only subjects them to a repeat performance. You on the other hand have learned much about making relationships work. Relationships are hard work. The soul mate stuff is crap.

Hang in there buddy!

[KentS]

"This doesn't mean you should see other people or let her have it with angry words because you don't care anymore. That's not the person you want to be. But who would you want to be?

Start thinking about the answer to this question, and let this guide you every day. It may seem strange because you want to save your M, not give up on it, but giving up on it and moving forward on your own is the best thing you can do for you regardless of how she responds and what the future holds."

Right on Zeus!

DB your a$$ off as it is the right thing to do. However, It's not the only thing to do.

[Gordie]

***I believe it is simpler than what you are considering. Gordie has become the everyday ho hum. It does not matter if you are the greatest guy in the world or not. WAW's and/or WAH's have a long list of what is wrong with their spouse. We can all make that list if we choose to go there. Bottom line is your WAW has started down the path of separating from you. If this is not true, you would not be here.***

You speak the truth and I deny the truth in hopes that it one day I wake up and this has all been a nightmare. This does me no good.

***You need to prepare yourself for the path that your W has chosen. You can still be respectful, you can still be somewhat available. However, you need to exercise control over your own future, your finances and your joy.***

We're writing our separation agreement now. It's a painful process but it does require me to exercise control over my finances. I want to make sure my W and children are well taken care of but I also need to make sure I am taking care of myself too. This is leading to some painful discussions as my W is currently not rational nor is she good with money. I know her inability to manage her money well will lead to negative consequences. I know she will ask for money in the future because she will likely live above her means. She won't ask directly for herself but it will be the kids need this and the kids need that. I'm not sure how I will handle that as I don't want the kids to be the victims of her mismanagement.

***In all things protect your emotional self.***

How? I feel my heart is out there to get broken every day, some more than others. I resisted my W's efforts to get me to leave the MBR but maybe I should leave for my own sake? Is that a good idea?

***You asked how you have enabled your W. It was your own admission that you were living to hear her ping you (tele calls and text post). For her to show some sign of love. Your hope is that somehow the nightmare will just go away. Problem is, you are not in control of her nightmare, her drama. At best, you can only control Gordie. Please focus on yourself and stop trying to figure your WAW out.***

Truth--I am still more focused on her than me.

***I agree with the earlier poster that you don't know the truth about W's relationship with OM. A WAW will not tell you the truth.***

Yes, this is a distinct possibility.

***Walk away spouses also continue to try to draw their spouse into the drama. At least until they feel emotionally and financially secure to pursue their fantasy.***

What do you mean? I don't understand.

***Bottom line, is you can't do anything about your W's choices. You need to get strong, independent and start moving away from her. She needs to see it. You need to inject a little of your own choices into the equation to show it's not all about her. Stop letting the tail wag the Gordie dog.***

Thank you. Yes, but right now it is all about her. In the MLC section of the book it discusses this and how unfair it seems that it is all about the MLCS. Maybe I need to re read to figure out how to cope.

***I am in your corner Gordie. I am not so sure your WAW will turn back. Thus, I urge you to prepare and consider LRT's as I believe this saga needs to be upset. WAW needs to think her drama is about to become her reality, not yours.***

Okay. I made a change this morning. I did not kiss or hug her this morning. I'll try to pull back this week, more than ever before.

***All your growth and realization of how you blew it is great. It is necessary to confess sin and ask forgiveness. The spouse needs to honor the confession and be open to a path for healing. Unfortunately, many find it easier to give up and move on which only subjects them to a repeat performance.***

I did and she said she forgave me but it is too late.

***You on the other hand have learned much about making relationships work. Relationships are hard work. The soul mate stuff is crap.***

What do you mean the soul mate stuff is crap?

[Gordie]

I had a good session with my IC today (not my DB coach) and asked him some of the same questions I have been discussing here. I thought it might be helpful to others to hear the back and forth (as my IC knows more of the details of my situation):

Q. Is it bad to hope for reconciliation?
A. No, in your case hope is not bad, because I think your hope is realistic. You hope that R can happen in the future, but you know that it may not and are moving forward as best you can. Further, the fact that you and your W get along so well and will be in day to day contact for many years to come because of the children makes it more possible.

Q. Am I codependent?
A. No, I don't think you are codepedent. A codependent would be trying to protect her from the consequences of her behavior. You don't want your W to get hurt, but you realize that she has to go down this path herself, consequences and all. You are going to have a lot of decisions on this front to make in the future that you can't answer now.

Q. Is it wrong for me to be so generous/amicable in our settlement?
A. No, it's consistent with your character and beliefs. You want to provide for your W and children, even if you are getting divorced. You want to remain friendly with your W. You are being true to your own beliefs, which in this case are not self-serving.

Q. Is it possible to have an alpha-alpha romantic relationship?
A. W feels trapped as the follower and wants a new romantic relationship where she is the leader and the boyfriend is the follower. You don't want to be the follower. Interestingly, your W has proposed an alpha-alpha co-parenting R with you where you collaboratively raise the children and remain friends (this is a test). Yes, an alpha-alpha romantic relationship is possible, if that's what both partners want. It's good that you recognize that if you ever have a future R with your W, that it will look very different than your past R.

Q. Is it wrong to continue having sex?
A. No, you are still married and you are letting your W initiate, so you know that she wants it too. Yes, most couples who are in the process of divorcing cease having sex, but there's nothing wrong with it if you both wish to do so. The fact that you are allowing her to take the lead in the sexual relationship also may give her a sense of control/leadership that she is seeking.

[ForGump]

Thanks for sharing that Gordie. I like much of what your IC had to say.

Let me ask you something, though: once you separate or divorce, and your W is seeing someone, how are you going to feel inside? Can you feel close, and be intimate with her, while you know she's sleeping with someone else?

Not rhetorical questions. I'd like to hear how you feel about this.

[KentS]

"I resisted my W's efforts to get me to leave the MBR but maybe I should leave for my own sake? Is that a good idea?"

Why not suggest she leaves the MBR?

"Walk away spouses also continue to try to draw their spouse into the drama. At least until they feel emotionally and financially secure to pursue their fantasy"

As A WAW or WAH struggles with their choices, they feel the need to dump on those closest to them. That be you.Also, once they feel emotionally and financially secure, you are no longer need as a provider of anything. Except a weekend babysitter perhaps. Is this true of all? No. Most? Yes.They are inherently selfish at this point.

[Gordie]

ForGump,

This is something I struggle with. I anticipate feeling terrible but the truth is I don't know. Heck, W already told me she is in love with another man and it hasn't killed me yet but I know that is partly due to the fact that I don't believe they are truly in love with one another but that is merely a fantasy or delusion or infatuation. How will I feel if they are out in the open in love with one another in an actual R? It hurts to think about but let's project: I'll feel it's wrong and abandoned and betrayed and replaced and angry and sad and... Will it kill my love for her? I don't know. My problem is that I feel we will still be married even if we are technically divorced, even if she is in a R with someone else. This is stubborn and out of touch with reality, but it's how I feel now. I actually discussed this with my counselor and he said it's really hard to project how you are going to feel in the future under different circumstances. I read one other thread where the H and W continued sleeping with one another even after the WH married her AP. Does that make the XW the mistress/OW?

[J5K]

Gordie,

It's a messed up world out there. In modern days now, it is easy to get that quick high or thrill from almost anything a person wants to do.

I can tell you that since my separation and D, I still love my ex. I sense she is still angry and resents me for my actions. She is not willing to let go of the past because she still discusses the past with respect to the kids and how my actions have affected them.

I think every LBS will feel abandoned, betrayed, etc. If the WAS remarries, it's just another dip on the rollercoaster for the LBS. That is why it is key to create your own life and happiness. If they don't find you attractive because they cannot let go of the past, someone else will.

[lt0402]

ForGump,

This is something I struggle with. I anticipate feeling terrible but the truth is I don't know. Heck, W already told me she is in love with another man and it hasn't killed me yet but I know that is partly due to the fact that I don't believe they are truly in love with one another but that is merely a fantasy or delusion or infatuation. How will I feel if they are out in the open in love with one another in an actual R? It hurts to think about but let's project: I'll feel it's wrong and abandoned and betrayed and replaced and angry and sad and... Will it kill my love for her? I don't know. My problem is that I feel we will still be married even if we are technically divorced, even if she is in a R with someone else. This is stubborn and out of touch with reality, but it's how I feel now. I actually discussed this with my counselor and he said it's really hard to project how you are going to feel in the future under different circumstances. I read one other thread where the H and W continued sleeping with one another even after the WH married her AP. Does that make the XW the mistress/OW?

Gordie, I also struggled with thoughts of how I'd feel towards my W if this D went through. I think what you'll find is that with time and distance the thoughts and feelings will become less frequent and certainly less intense. In our in house S situations, I think the proximity and daily interaction makes it almost impossible to detach fully. It also makes it extremely hard to see the situation objectively and really see a positive future without our WWs. You've got the ongoing intimacy with your W which I'd assume only adds to the difficulty.

All that said, I've come to realize that life without my WW, while not optimal currently, has the potential to be great. You see posters come here off and on who are Years into their journeys and that seems to be the consistent message. Because we control ourselves, we control our future happiness and our journey. We can choose happiness and pursue it. It's just hard to see that right now as we are bogged down in this mess. To be trite, don't lose the forest for the trees.

From your writings and observations you seem to be a fairly analytical man. It's good to observe your W and how she reacts to certain things, but you can't let her reactions drive your emotions or actions. What can you be doing to pursue your own happiness right now? What will help you take your mind off this thing for 30 minutes a day? You need to give yourself a break from this thing. It's easy to get consumed by it and lose sight of yourself. Been there, done that. Find something that gets you out of the hole and back into control of yourself. Do some analysis on yourself and figure out what you want/need. Don't always put all your focus onto your W.

Rambling now, but I see a strong man here. I know you're feeling lost right now, but you are on a good path. Start working on yourself and you will feel much better brother!

[Gordie]

We are at a stalemate as we have both suggested the other leave the MBR and both of us are still there.

Yes, my W dumps on me when reality intrudes on her fantasy. I suppose that I should anticipate this getting worse after S as she will have to face more reality.

[lt0402]

Gordie, my W and I reached the same stalemate in August. Being the nice guy, I left the mbr in July when she went to see OM the first time. After the second OM visit in August I moved back into the mbr and told her she could leave it if she wanted but it was not fair to me to not be in my bed.

5 months later we are still in the stalemate, though we have not discussed it in months. Don't know that there's anything you can do if she refuses to leave the mbr. For you, I don't see any reason you should leave as this is her decision. If she really needs to be away from you then she can leave. Not your circus.

Don't anticipate anything. It's ok to strengthen yourself to face the unknown but worrying about what may happen will only drive you nuts. Run scenarios through your head and how you would react but don't dwell on the what ifs. Almost like a coach game planning for a football game. Do it as dispassionately as is possible. Again, her facing reality is her circus, not yours. No need to worry about how she reacts to it. Just worry about you and being there for your kids.

[Dawgs]

Hey Gordie!

suggested the other leave the MBR and both of us are still there.

I'm more than sure you've heard this - never, never leave the bed. Tell her that she is more than welcome to stay, but you aren't leaving. Heck, just for kicks, tell her to expect some advances throughout the night...just to see. If she goes crazy at that suggestion, then tell her she needs to leave. HAHA. Joking, of course.

I suppose that I should anticipate this getting worse after S as she will have to face more reality.

Whether it does or doesn't is irrelevant. She may very well do that. However, what you should remember is that this is her road, and whether she faces that "reality" or not, she is traveling on it herself. Some decide that road isn't palatable and come back. Others, like mine, view the road as their own "life saving" event and don't look back. Either way, you are on your own road. It's only going to be as bumpy as you make it.

[Woke_Up]

" Relationships are hard work. The soul mate stuff is crap.

Yeah. This 100%

[Gordie]

***I can tell you that since my separation and D, I still love my ex.***

Thanks for sharing that. I know I do now, but wonder if/when that will ever change.

***I sense she is still angry and resents me for my actions. She is not willing to let go of the past because she still discusses the past with respect to the kids and how my actions have affected them.***

Why is she still angry? She can't forgive you? She needs to stay angry to justify her decision to cheat and divorce?

***I think every LBS will feel abandoned, betrayed, etc. If the WAS remarries, it's just another dip on the rollercoaster for the LBS. That is why it is key to create your own life and happiness. If they don't find you attractive because they cannot let go of the past, someone else will.***

Create my own life and happiness...I know this is the answer, but it's so hard. I know I'm not alone in this, but I really did think our R was awesome and special...we were our first loves, we built a life together...we had five amazing kids...we made it to twenty years...it's just soul crushing...now I sound delusional.

[Dawgs]

Create my own life and happiness...I know this is the answer, but it's so hard. I know I'm not alone in this, but I really did think our R was awesome and special...we were our first loves, we built a life together...we had five amazing kids...we made it to twenty years...it's just soul crushing...now I sound delusional.

Gordie, my fried, you are doing just fine.

Like you, I thought my marriage was solid. Solid. I never even suspected any problems, nor did I ever think she'd, well, do what she did. We were best friends and were supposed to grow old together, you know? We have always talked of sitting on the porch watching grandchildren play. Now, that thought is gone. Not sure what to replace it with. Maybe one day. I think we all sound delusional. All of us.

[ForGump]

I've looked at my old pictures, old emails between me and my wife, and I know I wasn't delusional. Yes, we had problems, but the bond of intense love was there too.

[Dawgs]

I've looked at my old pictures, old emails between me and my wife, and I know I wasn't delusional. Yes, we had problems, but the bond of intense love was there too.

Gump,

Do you ever find yourself looking at old pictures/emails? Just to reminisce? Just curious. I still catch myself doing that, even with the state of things and my non-feelings toward her. Odd, eh?

[ForGump]

I rarely look at old emails on purpose. But I've had to search for some old emails for various paperwork, and then I take notice of the old, loving emails from my wife.

Old photos ... I don't particularly make an effort to go way back, but my photo program on my computer kind of makes it easy to scroll backward in time, so it has happened by accident.

It's easy to remember the love. A little harder to remember the conflicts.

[Dawgs]

but my photo program on my computer kind of makes it easy to scroll backward in time, so it has happened by accident.

That's what I call it, too.

It's easy to remember the love. A little harder to remember the conflicts

This. So very easy to remember the good times and not the bad. Funny though, we never really fought but one or two times. Not that I like fighting, but sometimes I think fighting is kind of healthy versus never fighting. Maybe its just the ex's issues I was dealing with.

[KentS]

Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

This is why we struggle with separation and divorce. It's kinda hard to undo Gods design. We can deny it, but not undo it.

It was a failing marriage that served as a motivating factor to look upward, as we both failed to succeed in our own strength. It was his plan for marriage that helped ease the issues. Submission was not as hard as failure of our marriage. While the issues still exist, we now have a reason to set them aside. It's all a test. Of this I am convinced.

While I credit Michelle for opening my eyes to what and who I was, I give God the credit and glory for what happened in my marriage. DB was the book I found in the book store and speed read in one night over a double espresso. Some angels on this BB helped open my eyes to the WAW phenom and helped me re-center. The rest was up to me as each situation is unique. It took years for me to really understand the dynamics the best that I am able.

K

[KentS]

For Jeep,

"Gordie, my fried, you are doing just fine.

Like you, I thought my marriage was solid. Solid. I never even suspected any problems, nor did I ever think she'd, well, do what she did."

Thus, we find ourselves here to seek answers and support. Trying to honor a vow is not a bad thing. While it may prove impossible in this broken world, it is the right thing to do.

[Seeker7]

It was a failing marriage that served as a motivating factor to look upward, as we both failed to succeed in our own strength. It was his plan for marriage that helped ease the issues. Submission was not as hard as failure of our marriage. While the issues still exist, we now have a reason to set them aside. It's all a test. Of this I am convinced.
K

This is so true. I see this all the time on here and in my life that those who have had faith in the past and get side tracked in life and do not look to God first. He puts things in our path to wake us up to reality and as long as we put Him first then he will take care of our needs.

Through our greatest struggles in life is where we grow the most. Without struggles we would never grow much.

[Dawgs]

Through our greatest struggles in life is where we grow the most. Without struggles we would never grow much

I like this. A lot.

[Gordie]

***Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. This is why we struggle with separation and divorce. It's kinda hard to undo Gods design. We can deny it, but not undo it.***

Yes!!!

***It was a failing marriage that served as a motivating factor to look upward, as we both failed to succeed in our own strength. It was his plan for marriage that helped ease the issues. Submission was not as hard as failure of our marriage. While the issues still exist, we now have a reason to set them aside. It's all a test. Of this I am convinced.***

If this is a test, I feel like I am failing...

***While I credit Michelle for opening my eyes to what and who I was, I give God the credit and glory for what happened in my marriage. DB was the book I found in the book store and speed read in one night over a double espresso. Some angels on this BB helped open my eyes to the WAW phenom and helped me re-center. The rest was up to me as each situation is unique. It took years for me to really understand the dynamics the best that I am able.***

KentS, that is inspiring. This crisis has definitely brought me to my knees in prayer and closer to God than I have felt in years...two contemporary Christian songs are on repeat for me these days: I Trust In You and In The Eye of the Storm.

[Gordie]

This is so true. I see this all the time on here and in my life that those who have had faith in the past and get side tracked in life and do not look to God first. He puts things in our path to wake us up to reality and as long as we put Him first then he will take care of our needs. Through our greatest struggles in life is where we grow the most. Without struggles we would never grow much.

Seeker7--thank you for your words of encouragement and inspiration; I'm struggling...so I guess I'm growing, whether I like it or not.

[Seeker7]

That is a good thing to grow. I heard the other day that God wants to teach us long suffering and patience. But the only way to learn those is to be patient through long suffering. That is the way I am looking at it now.

[Dawgs]

But the only way to learn those is to be patient through long suffering. That is the way I am looking at it now.

One thing for sure, all of this does teach patience whether we want it to or not.

[Gordie]

So I've been up and down emotionally these past few days and discouraged that my DB efforts are doing nothing to derail my W's plans to S or D. Today, I had my latest DB coaching appointment and it was encouraging:

Gordie: Am I on the right track? I feel like I am failing because my W still wants a separation or divorce.

Coach: You are doing the right thing in terms of creating emotional connection and loving your W in her love language (time and attention) and that it is making W doubt what she wants. W is waffling: saying she wants a D, then saying she wants a S, now back to saying she wants a D; being highly critical of our sex life and yet initiating passionate sex; saying she wants space and freedom, but then getting upset with if Gordie is not there for her.

Gordie: Okay, but she is still dead set on separation and divorce; should I change tactics?

Coach: No, because things are getting better. In terms of tactics, ask yourself is what you are doing making things better or worse? If better, stick with that tactic. Can you be patient? You are going to have to be really, really patient. For some spouses, they actually have to go through with the S or D before they realize they have made a mistake. Can you be that patient?

Gordie: How do I respond when she makes provocative statements when I strongly disagree?

Coach: Agree/validate; when you disagree or argue, then it makes W hold onto her beliefs more strongly. Example: W says D will bring us closer together; Gordie disagrees or argues...instead Gordie should just say, so you think D will bring us closer (and then STFU).

Gordie: W keeps insisting that we will be BFFs (with benefits) after divorce; and I don't know if I can do that; how should I respond?

Coach: Validate and be honest: I know you want to be friends after we D and I want to be friends with you too, but I honestly don't know if I will be able to do that.

Gordie: How should I respond when she asks me how I feel?

Coach: You should be honest and tell her how you feel. W's major complaint with Gordie is that you are emotionally disconnected. Gordie doesn't usually open up to W about his emotions, so when she asks, she is trying to connect to you.

Gordie: How else can I improve my communication with my W?

Coach: You need to be less confident and certain. W complains that you think you are smarter than W and you talk down to W. Learn to say I don't know, I'm not sure, I have no idea and I'm not an expert...and Do you know? What do you think? When you are making decisions, don't give your opinion/answer first; leave space for her to think for herself.

Gordie: Should I continue ignoring the POM?

Coach: Yes. POM is going to make some stupid mistakes and you need to be the better choice.

Gordie: What else should I be doing?

Coach: Your W is in MLC, she is seeking excitement, and she finds you boring. You need to figure out how to surprise her, how to make her laugh, how to make her think she doesn't really know you, that you can be spontaneous and not utterly predictable, and that if she comes back to you that her life won't be boring.

[ForGump]

G--

So many things you wrote resonated w/ my situation....

For some spouses, they actually have to go through with the S or D before they realize they have made a mistake.

Does your W have a history of making impulsive, or emotion-based choices? Has she had difficulty exploring complex situations and their outcomes in her mind, or does she need to jump into things to understand?

Coach: You need to be less confident and certain. W complains that you think you are smarter than W and you talk down to W.

Good advice for me, too. I need to let her win her arguments, let her know I respect her opinions.

Coach: Yes. POM is going to make some stupid mistakes

Or... she'll realize he has zero interest in her and she only fantasized it?

Have you learned any more about the POM that makes you think he is indeed more than a delusion?

Coach: Your W is in MLC, she is seeking excitement, and she finds you boring. You need to figure out how to surprise her, how to make her laugh, how to make her think she doesn't really know you, that you can be spontaneous and not utterly predictable

I need to dwell on this.

[Gordie]

Or... she'll realize he has zero interest in her and she only fantasized it?

Have you learned any more about the POM that makes you think he is indeed more than a delusion?

No, I have not. I decided two months ago that discussing POM was not doing any good, so we haven't discussed him. The only time W brought up POM was when we were discussing alimony and that her L informed her that I would be free of alimony obligations if she cohabitates or remarries. This reality upset her fantasy greatly as she cannot have a serious cohabitating/marriage relationship with POM and her current lifestyle.

[Gordie]

Does your W have a history of making impulsive, or emotion-based choices? Has she had difficulty exploring complex situations and their outcomes in her mind, or does she need to jump into things to understand?

My pre-MLC W was conservative and not compulsive at all; now she says that type of thinking is bondage. The MLC W thinks impulsive, emotion-based choices = following your heart = the path to happiness. Is there a happy, middle ground between the two?

[ForGump]

This reality upset her fantasy greatly as she cannot have a serious cohabitating/marriage relationship with POM and her current lifestyle.

Her getting upset ... from your perspective, was it a good thing? A good wake-up call? Or did it plunge her into something more unhealthy?

What would happen if, somehow, she realized that the POM has zero interest in her? For example, POM's girlfriend finds out that your W has been too friendly w/ her boyfriend, and confronts your wife. That would destroy her fantasy. But does that help her see reality better? Or only push her deeper into a delusion?

[ForGump]

My pre-MLC W was conservative and not compulsive at all

Is it possible that she was a very emotion-based person all her life... but she either repressed it much of her life with you, and/or you failed to see that part of her? She may have been conservative in terms of the final choices she arrived at, but what was her style of thinking? Was she generally methodical and logical when making choices in her life?

The reason why I think about it is ... my W just wants to jump off the cliff into the divorce, and I think the way her brain works ... she just doesn't wrap her mind around all of the consequences beforehand. She is just unable to contemplate the full picture of life after a divorce. She needs to do it, to know it. I can tell her, "if we divorce, then it'll have A, B, C consequences in terms of money, time, which in term will have X, Y, Z consequences to our kids and the things we enjoy now," and so on about all aspects of our lives, including work, love, family, relationship, etc. But I don't think she can wrap her mind around that potential future.

Which goes back to what your coach said: some people need to divorce/separate before they know what they've done. And I think it has much to do w/ the way people's brains are wired.

[Gordie]

1. W currently feels that she was repressing her true self in our M. She never said this before BD but I believe that is how she feels now. My W and I are both guilty of conflict avoidance. W says she didn't feel repressed in the past but that she sees now that she was.
2. No, W hasn't thought through the logistics of D and I learned early I can't be her guide. Either she doesn't listen to me or I become the bad guy for bearing bad news. It's much better for her to hear bad news from the L or elsewhere. I think you should back off trying to explain these things to your W.
3. The question is how patient can I be? Can I continue this after separation and divorce? I'm only 5 months post-BD. If it is really x years of M = x months of DB...that means 15 more months...

[Gordie]

W getting upset about reality not matching fantasy is a good thing. It's made her more not less rational. But it only sunk in because I was not the messenger.

[ForGump]

W getting upset about reality not matching fantasy is a good thing. It's made her more not less rational. But it only sunk in because I was not the messenger.

So ... if POM and/or his girlfriend delivered the news to your W ... it might be a good thing?

skyhigh thought strategic exposure was good for getting her MLC hub out of his MLC....

No pressure (as if I can pressure you in the first place!) Just worth considering.

[ForGump]

First, I think it's a good thing that (as far as you can tell) your W was a fairly rational person before MLC. That means she can return to that at some point.

Of course repression and conflict avoidance is no good....

x years of M = x months of DB...that means 15 more months...

Don't tell my wife but if I knew going into it that she'd be emotionally divorced from me for 15 months but was sure to return to me after that ... I could accept that.

It's the not knowing how long, or thinking it's forever ... that makes it impossible to deal with.

[Gordie]

I would love for POM or POM GF to burst her bubble but I don't want to be the catalyst.

[Gordie]

Coach didn't say 15 months...coach reminded me there are no guarantees.

[ForGump]

I would love for POM or POM GF to burst her bubble but I don't want to be the catalyst.

That's a very good point you're making, not wanting to be the catalyst. I can respect that.

In my case I just felt I had to do it. It's hard for me to find words to articulate why. It was a gut feeling. Felt degrading to me, to my W, to my family for the delusion to continue. It felt like a matter of mental health, not a marital problem. But in my case I had zero doubt it was delusional.

About the 15 months -- yes, I understand nobody can tell us how long MLC will last, even if there is a rule-of-thumb or some type of a statistical average.

[Gordie]

How did you end the delusion?

How did it affect your situation?

It sounds like you have no regrets about doing it.

[Gordie]

Random scene from the twilight zone:

Gordie: do you want me to buy you a Valentine's Day gift this year?
W: yes
Gordie: any suggestions?
W: lingerie

[Woke_Up]

Twilight Zone is exactly it...

I'm not planning on asking the question. We did the Christmas thing for each other, spent a reasonable amount.

Doing Valentines says we are in R. If she is still contacting OM at that point, then [cesnored] Valentines.

Ask me in 3 weeks how I got on...

[Dawgs]

Doing Valentines says we are in R. If she is still contacting OM at that point, then [cesnored] Valentines.

^ This

[010207]

Gordie,

do yourself a favor and don't get sucked into that. You're setting yourself up for heartache. If you could do a quiet dinner or a small day trip just to spend time together, I could see that because it has benefits. But a gift, specifically lingerie that may not be for you (sorry, don't mean to be cruel) is too much to ask for right now.

[Dawgs]

I'd go even further and say don't even do that. What is the symbolism behind VD? Love and relationship, right? Now, if she is in love with someone else, even if "imaginary" (I still say where there is smoke...), then why on earth set yourself up for heartache? She'd see it as pursuing and nothing else.

[Gordie]

I posted this over on Lex23's thread:

I never forbid my wife from complaining but she does not do it much. I think she does hold back telling me her issues for whatever reason. She does not think I understand her, and perhaps I don't.

Lex23,

This is perhaps the biggest issue I am facing in my situation, so wanted to share a few thoughts:

*Your W doesn't complain much/tell you her issues...not because she doesn't have complaints or issues, but because she isn't comfortable doing so...this may be her own issue (in my W's situation, that's what was modeled to her in her family and that's what she was taught a good W did)...or it may be her relationship with you (Lex23 doesn't listen to me, so I don't even try to tell him).

*Your W doesn't think you understand her...now this is a chicken and egg from hell...she doesn't think you understand her so she doesn't tell you about herself...and when she doesn't tell you about herself, how can you possibly understand her?

So what can you do to try and change this dynamic?

Part 1. What parts of her complaints about you and your relationship are valid? Here's what I found/asked when I looked hard at myself:

*Do you want to be a guy who doesn't listen to people when they are trying to talk to you? NO!

*Do you want to be a guy who thinks he is right all the time so much that other people think it's pointless to disagree with you? NO!

*Do you want to be a guy who talks down to others? NO!

I could go on and on, but you get the point...what are your issues? What are the questions you need to be asking yourself? What are the things you want to change to be the best Lex23 ever?

Part 2. Does your W feel emotionally connected to you? If not, the above may improve your R with others, but probably not your W. For me, I have needed to improve my communication skills AND my emotional connection to my W in order for her to open up to me and opening up to me includes a lot of what has been lacking in our R: her disagreeing with me, her complaining and getting angry with me, her yelling and screaming at me! Does this sound like an improvement over the fake-calm, conflict avoidance? Yes, it actually is because my W is now being more honest with me than she ever has before and is letting out the things that she has been holding in for years.

[ForGump]

Gordie-- sounds like you're making great strides in understanding why your marriage is falling apart. I think most often it's not just one thing; it's a mix of things:

(a) the things we husbands did that just angered/frustrated the wives for years;
(b) a midlife crisis; and
(c) the wives' personalities/personal histories.

It's good for us to work on (a) but (b) and (c) ... will take a long time to play out and resolve, if at all. Maybe this is an obvious point but I guess I just want to say it's good to try to see what is an issue that is a life-long issue (i.e., (c)), vs. something confined to just your marriage (i.e., (a)).

Just thinking aloud, as reading your situation helps me think about mine.

As for the V-day gift ... my vote is to give her something thoughtful that reflects your warm feelings for her, but nothing explicitly sexual.

[ForGump]

How did you end the delusion?

Gordie, your post on 1/13/17 says your W recognizes that the POM may not reciprocate.

If that's correct, if that's a steadily held point of view by your W, then she's not delusional. She has an intense infatuation w/ the POM, but realizes that it's one-sided. That's a healthier place to be.

Or does she sometimes slip into thinking that he loves her back? And/or that he's actually done certain things to demonstrate his feelings for her?

[Gordie]

***Gordie, your post on 1/13/17 says your W recognizes that the POM may not reciprocate. If that's correct, if that's a steadily held point of view by your W, then she's not delusional. She has an intense infatuation w/ the POM, but realizes that it's one-sided. That's a healthier place to be.***

Yes, I think this is where she is.

***Or does she sometimes slip into thinking that he loves her back? And/or that he's actually done certain things to demonstrate his feelings for her?***

According to her, she believes that he loves her back, but she hasn't actually asked him point blank, so doesn't know for sure.

[ForGump]

She believes that he loves her back

OK, that slides the scale more towards delusional.... (IMHO)

[ForGump]

How did you end the delusion?

I asked the OM to tell her it's a delusion. I understand that her need for this is real. I felt it's not healthy to focus those needs onto a delusion. Whatever her emotional needs are, whatever her emotional/sexual discontentment is with me and our marriage, I felt it's healthier to process those thoughts and feelings in reality, rather than in a delusional world. Plus the OM was someone we all knew. It just isn't me to stand by while my W has delusions about someone we all know. That just felt pathetic and dishonorable to all of us.

There are mature, reasonable ways to deal with problems in a marriage. Falling into a delusion isn't one of them. My ending her delusion momentarily allowed us to reconcile -- and that felt great and gave me so much hope -- but then she fell back into a state of discontentment. But I believe she's become, slowly, more rooted in reality, and I believe overall that is good.

Ending the delusion wasn't a panacea, wasn't a silver bullet. But I believe it was a small step in the right direction. As you pointed out, there is the downside that the bad news came from me. But in balance, it was a good thing.

I have no regrets.

[Woke_Up]

I suppose it helps to get them into moments of clarity now and again. My problem is that OM seems to be delusional, believing that I am some sort of weird 'ex' who still lives with W and won't let go. I'm assuming he's making himself believe that as no-one can be that dumb really.

My W feels she is in love with OM, but also knows she is lying her backside off to maintain this fantasy with him, so I don't think it is that easy to snap her out of it. She actively wishes to be in a fantasy from her actions.

That sound the same with your wife, Gordie? Unwilling to let go of the fantasy, even with the knowledge it most likely is one.

[Gordie]

Woke up and For Gump,

Yes, I think W is lost in her fantasy. Reality is slowly intruding on her fantasy but she is still holding on to it for now. I wish I could meet you guys over beers IRL and tell you the rest of the story. I still can't believe I'm losing my W to a fantasy.

[ForGump]

I've turned over that thought for a while ... is it the fantasy for the particular POM that sparked the MLC, or was it going to happen anyway?

If that guy didn't come into our lives, would she have found someone else to fantasize about, or come up with some other fracture in our marriage....

I think it would have happened anyway.

[ForGump]

p.s. I'll take you up on that beer.

[Gordie]

I agree. In hindsight, my W's MLC started a few years ago but the catalyst for the BD was the way the POM made her feel. Think of the fantasy and real life OMs on this site, what a cast of characters. The W's feel so starved for attention and affection, bored or trapped in their lives, that they are open to attention from any man...old, young, rich, poor, married, unmarried...anyone.

[lt0402]

Yep, quite the cast of characters our WWs have found. Unfortunately our Ws tend to turn a blind eye to what type of man would pursue a married woman.

Gordie, the doses of reality will help shake your Ws views. I'd imagine they help to create cracks in her fantasy and over time she won't be able to ignore the reality of the situation. I think the bigger question is how she'll react when reality fully hits her. I've been through some odd things with my W and I think they've happened as she's gotten hit head on with glimpses of reality. Just be prepared to deal with the oddness when it comes. It will catch you off guard.

No advice on the VD front. I'd agree that lingerie is not the way to go. But I waffle around giving her a gift. What if you did something for the kids and invited her along? Great time with them and she can have a reminder of what it's like to be part of a happy family. Just a thought.

Hang in there brother. These things are tough but you are tougher.

[Zues126]

We all live in our own realities, our own narratives, our own imaginations.

There are things that help keep those realities in check. A fixed external belief system that doesn't sway in the breeze of emotions. A good mix of friends that aren't afraid to call us on our bs. Self reflection and humility to know better than to trust ourselves too much.

I think WWs have an easy time getting hooked on fantasy. A fantasy is like a fire. One person starts the spark. Then the more people go along with it, the more fuel is on the fire. And when a WAW rewrites history or blames LBH, it's not hard to get support. She just has to go to a bar or hop on the internet and say 'hey guys, I'll hook up with the first guy that agrees with me the sky is purple'. Pretty soon she's surrounded with purple sky-ers. Meanwhile her friends and family that call her on her bs are just 'de-friended', ain't no one got time for that kind of inconvenient feedback. (This isn't to say that WAH's don't go down the exact same road, but I'm just speaking about WW's for now)

It's an addiction, and it's one of the toughest kinds because it isn't as tangible. It's not like heroin where it's pretty clear that if there is usage there's a problem. It's more like overeating, where it's blurry. We have to eat, but when is it an issue? So too with fantasy, there are blurry lines that make it easy for people to rationalize away. Of course, once they are shacking up with other people and walking out on their families it's a little more noticeable, but even then there is always a spin. "He's not the OM breaking up a marriage...I was being abused, my self was being destroyed, LBH was killing me, I was dying inside, OM was the support I needed to escape that trauma and preserve myself..." Oh, I didn't realize! You poor thing. Let me help you move your things into OM's apartment!

Weird world we live in, isn't it?

[Woke_Up]

p.s. I'll take you up on that beer.

I'll second that, although it may be some time before I can get away to the States on vacation. I think WW would assume I was off to Florida to do a little bow hunting on the OM!

[Gordie]

Gordie, the doses of reality will help shake your Ws views. I'd imagine they help to create cracks in her fantasy and over time she won't be able to ignore the reality of the situation. I think the bigger question is how she'll react when reality fully hits her. I've been through some odd things with my W and I think they've happened as she's gotten hit head on with glimpses of reality. Just be prepared to deal with the oddness when it comes. It will catch you off guard.

LT--can you elaborate on this? What kind of oddness? I feel like I am constantly caught off guard...sigh.

And I like the idea of a family celebration...have actually done that in the past and might be perfect for this year.

[Dawgs]

LT--can you elaborate on this? What kind of oddness? I feel like I am constantly caught off guard...sigh

Gordie, please allow me to step in, sir.

My ex displayed all sorts of oddness, too. I recall coming into the bedroom and she was just staring at the wall for the longest time...and when I checked back 20 mins later, she still was.

Then there were her breakdowns. There were two that I've never witnessed in an adult before. At the time, it was heartbreaking to watch. Now, I'm not so sure part of it wasn't an act. Who knows. But, I do know she needs help.

[Gordie]

***We all live in our own realities, our own narratives, our own imaginations.***

Including the LBSs, right?

***There are things that help keep those realities in check. A fixed external belief system that doesn't sway in the breeze of emotions. A good mix of friends that aren't afraid to call us on our bs. Self reflection and humility to know better than to trust ourselves too much.***

I guess that's why my W changed her religious beliefs and circle of friends.

***I think WWs have an easy time getting hooked on fantasy. A fantasy is like a fire. One person starts the spark. Then the more people go along with it, the more fuel is on the fire. And when a WAW rewrites history or blames LBH, it's not hard to get support. She just has to go to a bar or hop on the internet and say 'hey guys, I'll hook up with the first guy that agrees with me the sky is purple'. Pretty soon she's surrounded with purple sky-ers.***

This made me laugh.

***It's an addiction, and it's one of the toughest kinds because it isn't as tangible. It's not like heroin where it's pretty clear that if there is usage there's a problem. It's more like overeating, where it's blurry. We have to eat, but when is it an issue? So too with fantasy, there are blurry lines that make it easy for people to rationalize away. Of course, once they are shacking up with other people and walking out on their families it's a little more noticeable, but even then there is always a spin. "He's not the OM breaking up a marriage...I was being abused, my self was being destroyed, LBH was killing me, I was dying inside, OM was the support I needed to escape that trauma and preserve myself..." Oh, I didn't realize! You poor thing. Let me help you move your things into OM's apartment! Weird world we live in, isn't it?***

This would have made me laugh too, if it wasn't so close to reality.

[Gordie]

I asked the OM to tell her it's a delusion...Plus the OM was someone we all knew.

Did the OM know of your W's delusion or was this news to him? How did he react to your discussion?

[ForGump]

Did the OM know of your W's delusion or was this news to him? How did he react to your discussion?

OM knew, he's the one that actually raised the issue (delusional infatuation) through someone we knew. Once the news got to me, I contacted the OM and he was supportive of letting my W know she was in a one way infatuation.

[lt0402]

LT--can you elaborate on this? What kind of oddness? I feel like I am constantly caught off guard...sigh

Gordie, please allow me to step in, sir.

My ex displayed all sorts of oddness, too. I recall coming into the bedroom and she was just staring at the wall for the longest time...and when I checked back 20 mins later, she still was.

Then there were her breakdowns. There were two that I've never witnessed in an adult before. At the time, it was heartbreaking to watch. Now, I'm not so sure part of it wasn't an act. Who knows. But, I do know she needs help.

Jeep is spot on. There have been many times where my W has had that stare down. In the family room, in the laundry room, in the kitchen, etc.

I've also noticed that when I've forcibly pushed back on issues like custody it leads to oddness. For example, I believe she thought we would S and she would have 95% of my Ds time and i would only get D every other weekend. When i stood up to her around 50/50 custody and did not back down, it was almost like she was trying weird strategies to try to get her way. She'd cycle between being "nice", to dressing nicer, to trying to instigate fights, to spewing non-stop around D and I. This experience is strange enough, but there have been plenty of odd actions from W during it that stick out.

I also felt like i was being constantly caught off guard. Even currently, i still do at times. I think the key here is having an idea of what you will and will not tolerate and being consistent in both how and when you push back on those things you won't tolerate. You cannot push back on everything bc in the end I believe you'll be too tired to be effective.

Being in a good mental state also helps. I think this comes from growing your understanding of your situation and what's driving your W. Additionally, the exercise component has been huge for me to keep my balance and sanity. Alot of angst can be burnt off at the gym and it really puts you in a better place mentally in my opinion. I've also found that investing in my D9 has helped me find balance too. The kids shouldn't be leaned on, but my R w/ D9 has helped to round me out into a better and stronger person. All of the above goes a long ways to building confidence and with that confidence comes aid in dealing with the unexpected moods/actions of W.

Just my 2 cents. I'm still dealing with all this as well, so open to suggestions/thoughts. It [censored] we need to constantly be in a state of readiness, but you'll find that the level of readiness required by you will de-escalate from "Nuclear Meltdown Alert" at some point. It's no fun living in that zone, but know it's not forever.

[Dawgs]

I think the key here is having an idea of what you will and will not tolerate and being consistent in both how and when you push back on those things you won't tolerate

Pick your fights wisely.

Being in a good mental state also helps. I think this comes from growing your understanding of your situation and what's driving your W. Additionally, the exercise component has been huge for me to keep my balance and sanity. Alot of angst can be burnt off at the gym and it really puts you in a better place mentally in my opinion. I've also found that investing in my D9 has helped me find balance too. The kids shouldn't be leaned on, but my R w/ D9 has helped to round me out into a better and stronger person. All of the above goes a long ways to building confidence and with that confidence comes aid in dealing with the unexpected moods/actions of W.

This can't be stressed enough. Thank you for sharing. My children are my rock, as I am theirs.

"Nuclear Meltdown Alert"

I like this. I was on DEFCON 1 for the longest time, and you're right - it was very tiring.

[Cadet]

I'm moving over to MLC, given all that I've learned over there recently:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2727554#Post2727554