Sitting in the cafe in Ravenna

[AndrewP]

Altair! Glad you can join me. The Chianti is almost gone. Sadly I don't think I have the ingredients for an IRL Mimosa even if I went through the box of booze that W left behind. There's a nice Cabernet Sauvignon chilling though. French grapes used in Ontario Canada wine drunk in a virtual location in Italy? Sounds fine to me.

Before I get into my update, yes, W would have very much noticed me cutting her off of my SnapChat feed.

Perhaps our spouses did indeed run off together. I think I just did about the most anti-DB thing possible but I will confess that I feel good. I can certainly understand how Coly felt at venting at her H. I will admit that I've pretty much never done that at my W ..... until now and perhaps one other time back in August. I'm glad that I have good friends to share this with. Please - no judgement - at the moment I'm happy with the choice I made.

There has been a bit of back and forth on Facebook about snow here in Canada vs snow in the Southern USA where D24 and her H's family live. I posted a picture of our snow (about 2 feet) to counteract their dusting. Rather to my shock, W posted a picture of her car covered with snow in front of OM's house. Because I'm anal and need to validate my sources I did in fact get into my car and drive by where W lives to confirm that she was not there.

I then sent W essentially an ultimatum to "be honest and set me free and be honest with your children". Bad DBing? Yep. TBH I did in fact believe her when she talked about being "alone" so much and think that it was over with her and OM. A second message stated "It's past time to be an adult and be honest" was also seen. Facebook Messenger is my friend.

We'll see where this all goes. Perhaps nowhere. Perhaps I'll get what I've been wanting for months which was OM and W filing for separation and D and not asking for a dime from me. Callous I suppose. But I can be that way.

Realistically I don't expect W to "be an adult" but I'm pretty much done with this nonsense.

Anyone up to a boating holiday on the Rubicon?

[Altair]

I'm up for boating on the Rubicon, yes.
I'm sorry to hear of what just happened. That simply sux. I mean, I see why you did what you did, her sending that pic is just uncool. Period. I mean it still could be over with them or not humming along-- either way, I get the ultimatum. Ugh, you're having a day.
Also, I wouldn't expect you to have Champagne lying around, especially today.

[LouR]

Andrew Andrew Andrew, I really understand your impulsive moment (been there, done that and not proud to wear the t-shirt) and I also know that you know it won't get you the reaction that I think you -deep down - want from your w. Its done, I for one have definitely done the same, so no judgement from me, just want to say not to beat yourself up, you are human (sorry if this bursts your superhero bubble) and we do impulsive things when we are emotional. Tomorrow is a new day, so start afresh.

As for the F/b and messenger thing - Andrew, my advice is to remove your w off all your social media outlets and I do mean ALL. The thing is, while you have her on your f/book etc, you will see and read things you don't want to see - case and point made from what she posted recently - all it is doing is picking off the scab of your healing wound. If you don't like the feeling you get from seeing what she is up to, then remove it. Its so easy on an emotional, drunken or angry day to throw messages or snoop on your w when you have easy access to them, something that you may later regret doing. So make it harder for yourself to have that access to her and her life. If you and your w become friendly again, then you can always add her back.

Some thought on the coat question - My thought is that she has not even considered her coats or anything else at the house. Right now she has left that part of her life behind and having any part of it in her new life is a memory, a memory she does not want to have. One day the coats may pop back in to her head, most likely summer lol and then she will ask for them back, so until then could you box them up and store them somewhere out of sight? You need to try and remember that you are thinking rationally, she is not, you see things clearly, she does not, adjust your thinking to her being in a scrambled state of thought and you may stop asking yourself the question "why did she do that?" - the answer is "because she did" end of.

Andrew my friend, this day will pass by and tomorrow its history. You are handling this rollercoaster you are on so well, trying hard to find a way of living the best you can until the universe shows its hand and what it has in store for you. I just know that its going to be great things.

Oh, and meatloaf hmmmm, not a fan, but that maybe because of childhood school dinner memories ugh. Whats next on the menu?
I have been looking up Italian Cocktails and a Rossini has taken my fancy ......

xoxo

[Sotto]

Hi Andrew, I agree with Lou about social media and I think it is the worst thing to have ongoing links with your spouse on social media at times like these. I too would close it down as much as you can. Not in a reactive and public way - more in a private and unfollowing way (I don't know much about this stuff) to stop you seeing her stuff. I know you'd like her to see your stuff...but really your own peace of mind is more important.

In your recent posting to her, there is a pattern of - you see something - it hurts - you thought OM was out of the picture - you drive and check - you become a little tipsy and emotional - you send her that message. I understand how it happens and I'm sure we have all been there in some way...but it's the opposite of detachment. It is remaining attached to what your W is doing and reacting when she does it. And the risk is your reaction can/could push things in a direction you may not want them to go. So many times, doing nothing is doing something...

I am D'd as you know. And I know virtually nothing about XH. I don't know where he is living. Whether he has his own place or a place with OW....what he is doing. It is good for me not to know and helps me move on with my life separate to his. Ultimately, I think that is the best thing - particularly if there is OP involved somewhere....does it help or hinder our situation for me to be so dim and removed? Do I even want to help our situation? I don't know - but most importantly, it helps me and that's my priority.

Hope this helps Andrew and as we say on the forum - learn, dust off, move forwards...

Xx

[Coly23]

Hey AP, sorry about what happened although I can imagine it felt good just to do SOMETHING!

No 2x4's from me as you know I am no good at this DB'ng stuff but I hope that I have not been leading you astray! I know it did feel good to have a vent at my H and sometimes I think we need to because we are biting our tongue so much it becomes too painful to continue. However I was wary of giving my H any ultimatums because I knew he would take it and run because i know he is still not ready.

I think the only thing I would say is that you made an assumption about OM being out of the picture and you built on that assumption so when you saw that picture it all came tumbling down. In fact nothing has changed. IMO however I think you are right in that she needs to tell your children about the OM. It's very unfair to you to have to bear the weight of a secret that is not yours to bear. She needs to be grown up and come clean to her grown up children.

AP, we feel your pain and we are all here for you. Take care. X

[MoveFrwd]

"be honest and set me free and be honest with your children". A second message stated "It's past time to be an adult and be honest"

I have a couple thoughts:

1) what do you mean by "set me free"? You're free right now to do as you please. You want a divorce, then file. It sounds like you don't want to keep your "suty", but you want her to be the one to relieve you of it. The choice is and was yours on whether you want to continue. I don't see why you should be asking her to make your decision for you.

2) as for the "be honest with your children", do you know what she has said to them? You've made it a point here to emphasize that their relationship with their mother is not your business. But in this request, you are making it your business.

Both of these things come off that you want to be divorced, but you want her to make it clear to everyone that it was her choice. Like you want everyone to be aware of her indiscretions and absolve you from...blame? Responsibility? I'm not sure exactly?

I think now is a good time to start back over with a beginners mind and really set some personal goals.

[AndrewP]

Well - I did it. I wrote her a letter titled "I Give Up". And I have.

I just can't take it any more. I'm sure nobody here is surprised. This has been building for months. I did hope that I could last longer than I have and in hindsight I'm surprised at how long I did last.

I set out the things that we need to do and those that she needs to take care of and those that I will and put dates against them all. I told her what I would accept in a separation agreement and requested that she talk to her lawyer to get it done (I have my doubts if she'll do anything - who knows). I emphasized the need to keep everything civil and simple to avoid costs and put in some cost estimates that I had with the reference information to back them up. The timeline for filing for divorce is our 28th anniversary. If she doesn't hit her deadlines this is not my problem. I told her I was open to adjusting things. I expect her to bury her head up her @ss though and try to ignore things. The expected dinner on Wednesday very likely won't happen now I imagine. If she doesn't do her part I will carry on regardless.

I also reached out to both kids and let them know that I have asked W for a legal separation. D24 responded right away with sympathy. It may take a few days for S22 to get around to reading my note. The SIL army has gone into major cheer-leading mode.

As I was writing my letter this morning W did respond to my messages from last night with essentially a "mind your own business" message. I expect the monster has been unleashed and I hope I am prepared. Which particular monster will it be though? Most major Greek monsters had some sort of fatal flaw.

I have personal goals - I need to get through this with my sanity and pocket book intact. In some ways I feel horrible about giving up but I've been agonizing about this for months and tbh - last night - as trivial as it might seem from outside was indeed the final straw.

For now there's nothing to do but sit back and follow the plan. The first few items which trigger in a couple of weeks involve removing her electronic access. I promised that I would be open, honest and transparent. I doubt that she will be - she never was and I still have everything in place to make sure that I am protected against any sudden moves on her part with finances etc.

Wish me luck.

[Sotto]

Hi Andrew, I think you are flip flopping around too much just now to make a rational decision about giving up. Don't send the letter I would say!

Now then, if you want to deal with some practicalities like legal S etc - that sounds sensible. That needn't mean D and closing the door unless you want to.

I also think 'giving it to God' (or dropping the rope) rather than giving up is a good plan.

However, you don't need to make a grand pronouncement to her. When I did this, I did it silently and the change was only within me.

You haven't been following the advice to detach and GAL and this advice is given for the good reason that if you can build a life of your own and become less affected by stuff she may be doing, it is more possible to survive and stand for the marriage.

So, let this 'decision' settle before sending any letter. Burn the one you wrote if that helps and give yourself some time to steady out. Just this week you were asking her out to dinner..

The important thing time has shown me is to feel at peace with your own part and your own decision. That's what really matters. Did I dig deep enough and give all I was able during this trial. If you can peacefully say yes and know you gave something that mattered so much all that you were able, then fine...

Good luck with everything :-)

[job]

Andrew,

First, I am sorry you are so emotional and flip flopping all over the place...but this is what it's like when you don't drop the rope and/or detach from their behavior. I agree w/Sotto that you are to emotional right now to be making decisions about things. You are reacting to that photo in a knee jerk way and you know what...that may be what she wanted, i.e., to see if you would react.

As for telling your children today...I think I would have had to sit on that conversation for a bit. By telling her what she needs to do...well...she just may not do what you are telling her to do. Remember, they don't like authority figures. She may opt to drag this out for quite some time...so, whatever ultimatums/strategies you come up with, you better be prepared to follow through on them. Doing things to get a reaction out of her will not work, as you've seen thus far.

You need to unfriend her from FB and any other electronic app that you have. You do not need to be seeing all of her business any longer. Why? Because you are not detached enough from the situation.

In MLC they tend to have another person in the mix and you are very well aware of that. You've been concerned about her belongings and her coats...I've remained quiet on the belongings for quite some time...but I will say this...some of them won't come back and get their stuff because it reminds them of their past. They don't want any part of the past life, at least for now, and unfortunately, that would include you as well. If you have a garage, basement or shed, put those belongings from the front porch in one of those places for now. At some point, you can notify her that she has "X" number of days to come get her stuff. If she doesn't...well, then leave the stuff where it's at or donate the items...but that may something to think about in late spring/early summer.

I suggest that you really think about your decision and the one thing you need to do is to set up your own financial stuff and stop offering to take on her payments, i.e., car insurance, etc. She's a big girl and she can get her own insurance, etc. Time for Andrew to drop the rope, focus on himself and take care of your financial business, which includes removing her access to any accounts that you have.

I suspect that she will now begin getting angry w/you because of what you've posted to her...buckle up...it may not be a pretty ride from now own.

Whatever the final outcome, we are here to support you...but you need to learn to not react to everything she says or does. Those knee jerk reactions tend to get people in trouble.

[Altair]

Hi A.P.,
My take is, there's like 3 main things going on.
1. A photo got you really upset, understandably, prompting you to do some kind of action, in this case an emotional "I'm done" letter mixed with financial stuff. Don't send this letter, I recommend a different action.
2. You've been antsy, again, justifiably, about financial matters. I think it seems wise to file for legal separation, if it will help you with this money piece of the puzzle. In my case it makes less sense, it would go straight to D, purely from a $$ point.
#1 is emotional, #2 is reality-- don't mix the two in dealing with her!!

Focusing on #2-- even the mere fact of gathering information is an okay thing to do. I'd steer really clear of #1. You won't get the results you are looking for and will just serve to stress you out. So, I'd stick to no R talks, I mean, you can protect yourself legally and financially and still follow DB practices.

The separation work might be a good thing. It will force her to take care of these matters which happen to be your LIFE. Then, if you do follow through with separation, you can slide into a new life of your separate finances and see what happens from there.

AP I don't think you are going to get any emotional resolution now, if ever. So focus on other elements of the problem that you can act upon to make you feel better. Like job said, you can "be done" but doesn't mean the door is closed, but cracked open and ignored as you flesh out your new life.

As for me, I might employ a similar tactic to the one I suggest. I may, nicely, start with ending insurance and separate the final savings acct. After that, I would ask him to file. I do not intend to attempt any R talks, I am just going to drop financial connection rope, and marital paper rope, which is dead anyway. I know now, I may never get the closure I seek. But I will remain peaceful and loving (as much as humanly possible) and forge forward. I hope this was helpful.

Ah, #3. That would be your kids. OK they know about separation, that's fine and leave it at that. A fine place for them to be, to know, no need to do anything further in this category.