Cabin in the woods

[CaliGuy]

As for they waking up after you've dropped the rope. They don't wake up suddenly. It is a very gradual process, i.e., just as it was for them to go into MLC. When they are snapped out of their crisis for whatever reason, there is a strong possibility that at some later time they will re-enter MLC and pick up where they left off and the clock starts ticking and the second time around is a bit worse for them, as well as the LBS. The LBS becomes devastated as they have put a lot of hope and expectations into their waking up and wanting to return home (not fully baked).

Andrew ... this is precisely what happened to me. She seems to be a bit nicer now after what ... 10 months of very Dim/Dark but this is why I asked you the question just to give you a heads up .... some people can do it, some have live-ins ... I am a pretty tough dude but not MLC Monster tough.

The blip about moving on ... I know we preach GAL and you resist (normal trust me) But I will just echo this. There was a saying someone always said here ... they can't miss you till you are gone. You will not see movement often, sometimes you will see something and its not what you think it might be ... trick is to get on your feet and become a stronger man from all this regardless of what she is doing.

You have touched on anger .. a couple times and I have been waiting for this. Its good ... yes .. its good. USE that anger (I am really trying not to sound like Darth Vader here) ... USE it to fuel you across to the next point, do not live there with it, I had a very wise woman here help me tremendously with this. Its healthy to be angry, you should feel that ... it means you are progressing .. just do not stay there with it.

[SBJ]

[quote=job]

There was a saying someone always said here ... they can't miss you till you are gone. You will not see movement often, sometimes you will see something and its not what you think it might be ... trick is to get on your feet and become a stronger man from all this regardless of what she is doing.

You have touched on anger .. a couple times and I have been waiting for this. Its good ... yes .. its good. USE that anger (I am really trying not to sound like Darth Vader here) ... USE it to fuel you across to the next point, do not live there with it, I had a very wise woman here help me tremendously with this. Its healthy to be angry, you should feel that ... it means you are progressing .. just do not stay there with it.

CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.

[CaliGuy]

CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

That sounds like a quote a broken hearted teen would post on facebook ... not something I think you can really apply with a MLCr as I have read a few accounts that after they emerged from the fog they confessed they always loved the spouse it was just overpowered with the need to be selfish and do as they wanted.

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.

Man .. I was livid ... wanted to punish her for wrecking my life, our marriage, sleeping with a slimeballdouchenozzle ... to top it off she contracted herpes from said dude (Turns out she was OW2-3) but swore the soul mate garbage.

So yeah ... I was angry. Very Very angry

Thing is its easy to get angry, especially when you pull out and play the victim card on a regular basis. I was perfect how dare she do this to me and our marriage .... then slowly as my focus left her and turned inward ("we can only control ourselves".... I took further to "we also can only change ourselves" not the MLCr) I noticed my reflection was not such a great looking guy, her crisis is her crisis and she has to own what she did.... but there were several things I needed to own up to and fix in myself so later (for you biblical scholars Mathew 7:3 was the catalyst here) ... whether its with her or some one else I can be the partner I should have been, the one I am capable of being.

[SBJ]

CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

That sounds like a quote a broken hearted teen would post on facebook ... not something I think you can really apply with a MLCr as I have read a few accounts that after they emerged from the fog they confessed they always loved the spouse it was just overpowered with the need to be selfish and do as they wanted.

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.

Man .. I was livid ... wanted to punish her for wrecking my life, our marriage, sleeping with a slimeballdouchenozzle ... to top it off she contracted herpes from said dude (Turns out she was OW2-3) but swore the soul mate garbage.

So yeah ... I was angry. Very Very angry

Thing is its easy to get angry, especially when you pull out and play the victim card on a regular basis. I was perfect how dare she do this to me and our marriage .... then slowly as my focus left her and turned inward ("we can only control ourselves".... I took further to "we also can only change ourselves" not the MLCr) I noticed my reflection was not such a great looking guy, her crisis is her crisis and she has to own what she did.... but there were several things I needed to own up to and fix in myself so later (for you biblical scholars Mathew 7:3 was the catalyst here) ... whether its with her or some one else I can be the partner I should have been, the one I am capable of being.

CaliGuy...how did you know I saw that on FB (just kidding) someone told it to me to fit my sitch. Not sure it applies, but we do want them to realize that we are missing. She told her father recently...he is my best friend in the world...yet, she is leaving and I am no longer in her life daily. That kind of sparks what you might consider "confused anger".

I guess to paraphrase your scripture...counting the sins of another doesn't make you a saint. I know that I have alot to work on. I guess what I am seeing mostly is the fact that I shouldn't "NEED" her in my life, but I sure would like it if she was in it. I need to work on becoming secure in myself, by myself so that I really find out who I am. I want to be known as "SBJ", not just _____'s husband or _____'s father.

By the way, AP...sorry to hijack your thread.

[AndrewP]

SBJ - no problem at all - I appreciate the extra dialogue.


CaliGuy:

Matthew 7:3 - Certainly a similar quote to "people who live in glass houses" and "let ye who is without sin cast the first stone". Even though I am not a Believer I like to think that I'm a spiritual man and indeed did read the Bible from cover to cover as a youth trying to explore my own spirit. The begats were tough going . Hopefully this pun won't upset anyone - it is indeed a "Good Book" - lots of great stories and things to learn.

On anger. Yes, I have a lot and W knows it. While I've only raised my voice to her perhaps three times during this journey - once "why the f@ck are you still here" (I also pretty much never use profanity), and a couple of "what does he have that I don't have" (which I backed down from as irrelevant), she does know that the anger exists. It's a different sort of anger though - one that I hold inside and that will drain away in time possibly leaving a core of bitterness if she never returns.

I also have other anger. I've been quite angry with people here as anyone who has played along may know. I also was quite angry with my first IC who was quite unhelpful. One thing I noticed with that anger was that it ripped my focus away from W and my situation and accelerated my healing. I certainly don't seek out that anger and have had similar results from joy although since I haven't felt that as strongly as I have anger it has a lesser effect. One thing that I made a conscious decision to do following BD2 is to find some thing to be joyful about each and every day. I did mention this to W once or perhaps twice early in this journey and was rather surprised when over coffee I mentioned it and she remarked that she also now tries to find one thing to be grateful for or happy about each day and that sometimes it takes hard thinking before she goes to bed but she does find it.

I'm not sure where you were going with this CaliGuy - but as I learned from "talking" to Jack_Three_Beans and eric that sometimes these conversations open up new areas for growth for me.


job - Thank you again for your notes on how the "process" works. I had a bit of an epiphany this morning around 4:00am (6 hours ago) and have been hammering it around in my head to compose it properly. W and I used to have an "in-joke" where I would come up with what I thought was a fabulous, original idea and then after a moment turn to her and ask when it was that she first suggested it to me

Here is the AndrewP version of the "process" - or at least the process as I'm currently understanding it and trying to use it. I'm not completely happy with the wording but this is the best I can do for now.

As a LBS you need to move forward. Where you are isn't where you want to be. You need to make a place where you can love and be loved and where you can most importantly love yourself. If your spouse is willing and finds this place attractive, they will carefully look in and and may ask to join you. You cannot go and herd them in front of you or drag them in. They must join you of their own free will. Don't go rushing into the place where they are. You don't want to be there.

So - I'll accept my gold star now teacher.

Just a note on "GAL" and my attitude about it. I may get a bunch of disagreement, but this is the way I think. GAL as I feel it is being told and used here scares the bejeezus out of me. To me it seems like an effort to go out and be busy for the sake of being busy and to surround yourself with people and noise as a distraction from the reality you are living. For my entire life I have always stood and squarely faced any challenge that has come my way, sometimes wearing brown trousers, but always standing firm. To me, the classic definition of GAL, which a lot of people take as getting out to the gym, making themselves "better", surrounding themselves with people and distractions looks and sounds exactly like what my MLCer W did. She did the exercising, surrounded herself with people who validated her, told her to have fun and to me this was a key thing - always had music playing ear-drum blasting loud. I am terrified of going down that path myself because it is shiny and leads into (I feel) the same madness.

Time to clean the driveway yet again, go off and get my groceries and roses. I had to snap the elastic a bit last night / this morning. S22 still isn't responding to my messages and I was also tempted to invite W out for brunch tomorrow morning.

(BTW, replaced your quote for you as you requested.)

[Sotto]

I'm interested in your attitude towards GAL Andrew and I had thought there might be some fear there based on the strength of your reaction.

I have seen that in others - that they equate GAL - with dropping the rope and moving on - starting a R with another in effect.

For me, as you know I have many activities, and some bring me into contact with guys. I also decided it isn't a great plan to date until at least a year after D finalised (next May.) And so I have some careful boundaries. I avoid 1-1 outings, lifts and I also tell guys I'm not seeking to date just now. I exercise a level of self-control in those interactions.

Are you worried that you may not be able to have that kind of control if faced with an appealing woman?

Also, I don't equate GAL with 'running away' from processing things. I do have quieter times too and have reflected and read a great deal. It is important to get that balance I think. I'd encourage you to reflect on the scenario I previously described - you are not with your W and you are not dating. But you are happy with your life and your social, connective needs are met.....what does that look like??

x

[bttrfly]

Hi Andrew.
I have a few thoughts. Worth no more than the paper they are printed on, but I will share them freely in case you find them useful:

re: GAL and distraction. Yes, I've experienced that and it exhausted me. It did take my mind off things, which was better I guess than being home and wallowing. I have a new understanding now though of GAL. It is to learn who I am separate from my marriage. For many years I defined myself as a wife and mother. Stbxh's wife and s's mother. When Stbxh left and took S with him 1/2 time, I was left wondering who am I now? What are the things I like to do? What interests me? A wise friend who was divorced about 10 years ago told me that at first it's hard to get your bearings because you were 1/2 of a whole for so long. It's baby steps of finding out what interests you personally vs what you did as a couple. For him, he discovered a love of kayaking. He said it helped him deal with the sadness and stress and then also helped him heal. We've known this friend for a number of years, before their divorce, and he's always been a straight shooter and good person and I've learned over time to appreciate his wisdom and value his experiences. And I do mean friend - there isn't anything romantic between us, nor has there ever been the suggestion of that.

So I took his suggestion, which was to try some new things and also try to think back about doing some things I've maybe stopped during the course of marriage and motherhood. I've tried some new things, like taking a language class and singing in public. But, I've also been reminded of how much I love photography and also how much I love seeing the occasional live concert. These were things I loved before being in a couple and things I continue to love. Somewhere in the middle, they got put aside or ignored as Stbxh didn't share these interests.

So, GAL to me these days means finding something that makes me smile and brings me joy. It has nothing to do with son or stbxh or whether or not we will ever find our way back to each other. It has absolutely nothing to do with dating either.

I can only speak for myself and my relationship: as things got more difficult living with my MLCer, I became more distraught, needy and co-dependent. I don't think that's a healthy way to relate, and it's not a recipe for a successful relationship for me personally. In order for me to be healthy again I need to be stronger in myself. My GAL activities are designed to remind ME of who I am, separate from the relationship. These activities allow room for partnership too, but are mostly about me having a stronger relationship with myself so that any relationship with my partner is healthy and not based in co-dependence.

Regarding anger, frankly, I've refrained from responding to your threads because at times you've been very angry with some people who have tried to help you, and I find that quite off-putting. I get enough anger from other areas of my life and don't need to go looking for it, but I did want to respond to you regarding different views on GAL as I thought you might find some use to it.

Wishing you well.

[CaliGuy]

I'm not sure where you were going with this CaliGuy - but as I learned from "talking" to Jack_Three_Beans and eric that sometimes these conversations open up new areas for growth for me.

Thats precisely where I wqas going .... I learned here that sometimes that a topic will come up, (I recall "Forgiveness" sprouted up in one of my threads and went on for 4-5 pages) it became a topic for several and looking at it from so many different perspectives I started really looking hard into my own perspective and often walked away thinking about it harder or in a few cases actually coming away with a different look at it. This is growth

Just a note on "GAL" and my attitude about it. I may get a bunch of disagreement, but this is the way I think. GAL as I feel it is being told and used here scares the bejeezus out of me. To me it seems like an effort to go out and be busy for the sake of being busy and to surround yourself with people and noise as a distraction from the reality you are living.

You will think how you will think ... and yeah its not a secret you will not be the 2016 posterboy for GALing ... but there is still time to run your 2017 campaign

Andrew ... I will confess I was the same. No lie .. "pfffft GAL its just running from the real work that I should be doing, I can easily watch a movie and forget about my sitch for a while and call it GAL." I may not have said those words here in fear of the 2x4's but I surely thought them.

Before my arrival to DB I went to IC, this in itself was a 180 for me but I had found myself alone and lost. The 'friends' we had were her friends as she always scheduled/planned the get togethers and Cali would run to the store and get beverages or maybe make his famous chili ... once there I had a great time but I was not texting/calling. -- Anyways .. in IC she pushed me to GAL and I pushed back ... to busy, I work 2 jobs and have things that I have to get done. I always would get invites and ALWAYS politely turn them down. The IC sat up, looked me into the eyes like she was talking to my soul and asked me "Cali ... what would happen if you just said yes and actually went to one of these?" She shut me up on the spot and I had to think about it ... well I wouldn't die, I suppose I could ... so almost like on a dare I agreed to accept and go to the next event I was invited to.

I went .. was a birthday party.

That's when the light bulb came off ... was in the next IC session a few weeks after this party, and what I hope you come away with after reading along. Its not about "GALing" per say .. not about running and avoiding your problem/situation .. on the surface it looks like that. True GALing is getting out of your comfort zone, and opening yourself up for growth. Old Cali would never go to that party ... Cali 2.0 often frequents them now... I am still busy but I do try to keep myself open to new things.

I have a list of stuff I have done/accomplished post BD that I would never really have thought about giving a chance ... not all of them I stuck to but I can look back and smirk about the memory .... truth is I feel more alive after coming out of a time I felt empty inside.

[Altair]

That's really funny- no A.P. "Best GAL Award" in 2016.

A.P., I know you get GAL ideals and no, neither you nor I will go to the gym and sling kettleballs and take kickboxing classes. And it's great for some- lots of people on this site are doing man mud runs and jumping out of planes (go to you tube and search "what the F*** are you doing David?"-- guaranteed laugh and worth the 28 seconds)

My GAL for Sunday is to Chicken and cat sit and yes! The house owners get the NYT. I will do the crossword puzzle. Maybe your GAL will be to rearrange the living room. Or eat a bear claw instead of a scone. These do count.

[AndrewP]

Thanks everyone.

Altair - I was indeed daring today and had a brownie as well as my scone for lunch. And as far as emulating "David" goes - sign me up for "not interested". As far as 2017 goes, I don't even think I'll get a "participation" award, nor the Mr. Congeniality

I think that one thing that might be different for me is that my codependency on W was a relatively recent thing that was my attempt to help her with her depression by being more available, more positive, more considerate - perhaps to the point of smothering her. On the other hand she seemed to take all I offered and appeared to want more to the point where around the time that her A started I was bracing myself to ask her to give me more space. For many years of our marriage I used to joke that the three magic words that "saved our marriage" were "have fun dear" and they were in fact true. We had/have separate friends, separate interests, separate activities. We also had enough in common that the times we spent together were great.

My life right now is pretty darned good and I'm rather happy with it. I have now more friends than I did pre BD, am better connected to my family, have (other than my sitch) less stress. I've rediscovered things I love such as fresh roses and bubble baths. With my weight being down and my physical health being better there are less barriers between me and the things I enjoy. I just spent close to an hour clearing heavy wet snow without any angina pains at all. Still can't find the darned garbage can lid though. I do have to remind myself to apologize when breaking wind and (this is TMI) try hard to remember to close the bathroom door The risks of living alone I suppose.

Do I miss W? Absolutely. Do I want to be loved and form that special bond with a woman that needs to be part of a committed relationship - Absolutely. Does the thought that W may come back to me sent my heart a-flutter? Absolutely. Will I be OK if she never comes back? Absolutely.

I don't want to get into it too much, but I feel I should go back to anger and this forum for a moment. I've written about this recently, about how at least for me knowing the "why" of things is almost more important than knowing the "what". My conflicts have been mainly around people appearing to be instructing me on what to do without telling me why. GAL, detach, drop the rope are to me, "platitudes" without context. GAL? Ok - GAL because it will make you a better person and take your mind of things. "Drop the rope" - because you are too wrapped up in what your spouse is doing and need to focus on yourself. We won't get into some of the other times when things have escalated, or when people found it necessary to make blunt statements of things I already knew like that my wife was sleeping with another man and enjoying it. I found no purpose in that other than to cause me pain. Recently I was going to write a short essay here based on the song title "Be Thoughtful and Kind". Please, all of us, Be Thoughtful and Kind. You may feel that you know all about what is going on in a particular person's life who you only know from what you see on this screen in front of you but bluntly stating "I know everything about your life even though I've never met you and you need to do exactly what I'm telling you" is not being either thoughtful or kind. Some people, especially those where the hurt is very fresh and who are spinning perhaps need that sort of slap. A parallel to me perhaps is working with horses which I have a bit of history with. A horse stands taller than most men and is more powerful by far. Horses can also be quite stubborn and headstrong. Yes, it is possible for a person with a lot of knowledge to strong-arm a horse into doing what they want for a short period of time but the horse will resent it. I've seen enough kicks in the stable to attest to that. If on the other hand you use soft words appreciate that this huge beautiful animal is a creature with it's own fears and guide it, showing it the benefits of doing what you want it to do, then you will have a willing partner in tackling the tough work ahead.