The Phantom Cyclist - Journey Leg 3

[Ginger1]

There has been a few posters who have come to these boards who always felt the need to keep re-explaining themselves, claiming they must have not gotten their point across properly because they didn't like the response they have gotten. So they must have expressed SOMETHING wrong.

But they didn't. They were heard loud and clear and understood. No matter how many way it was explained, in whatever context, the advice always remained the same. No one was not listening or talking over them.

It is a hard balance to be straight forward so that you understand without you getting defensive that people are insulting you. When people try to tip toe and go gently as to not offend you or have you become defensive, then it is hard to explain in a way you can understand.

That's why people have chosen to respect your wishes of simply letting you journal.

[cat04]

Andrew,

I understand Autism Spectrum Disorder. My career is in the field of developmental disabilities. I am, by no means, an expert, as we can always learn more.

That being said, I am going to try to point some things out to you, things that may make you think I am picking on you. I am not. I want to be very clear in trying to show you what other people are seeing.

I would ask that you hold back any reactive response you might have and maybe put the post away for a while and come back and read it again later before responding.

Please know that no one is accusing you of not being honest and forthright. Additionally, this is NOT the playground and while some people can be bullyish, the people who posted to you in the past few days, are not bullys. They are simply all trying to get you to see what they see.

If in fact the intent of these posts is to publicly shame and shun me - then so be it.

I can assure you that the posts are not to publicly shame or shun you.

People here believe in growing and becoming better people. Very often, we don't see clearly how we present ourselves to the world. When someone quotes a sentence or two, it is to help you see what they are seeing.

There is no shame in wanting to improve yourself.

Andrew, we have all been there.

I have noticed on this forum and others related to other topics that I've participated in the past that they go through cycles as different dominant personalities pass through.

While this is true to some extent, here, in MLC, you will find the same people posting for years.

Right now on newcomers we have someone posting to everyone who will listen that they need to reveal their W's affair to the public, shame her, start dating to make her jealous and then slap her with a D and then she'll run right back. This is counter to most of what MWD writes and I hate to think how many people are following that advice. Heck, he even dug up an old open thread of mine and told me to do the same thing. When I politely rejected his advice he told me that I was doomed to live forever alone because no woman respects a cuckold.

Occasionally someone pops up around here who does give advice that is counter to DB philosophies.

While we are all entitled to our own opinions, and in some instances advice like what is being posted there now (I did go read it.) works, it isn't what MWD writes about.

Since this is a forum based on her books and philosophies, when someone like that appears, the "vets" and moderators do watch what they are posting.

However, this is a public forum and it is NOT a cult, and we are entitled to differing points of view.

As you may or may not have noticed, when someone begins going to extremes with their posts that are contrary to DB, the "vets" and the moderators are quick to step in and the person generally doesn't stick around for long.

For a while both Newcomers and MLC were a place of kindness and healing and helped me a lot. People like Jack_3_Beans, job and yes - even eric listened to me, gave me good actionable advice and were very patient with me. That seems to have shifted again and it makes me very sad.

I am sorry that you feel that way.

The only real difference in their posts and what has been posted to you lately, is how you read and reacted to it.

Which created a flurry of people trying to find similar but different ways to show you what they were talking about.

One thing we are a bit guilty of here as a group of posters is not wanting to cause more pain to someone who is already hurting. And sometimes, posters will wait, until someone else has posted what they wanted to say, and then they feel it is ok to chime in. Kind of like letting the "proverbial" cat out of the bag...

That can result in several quick posts in a short period of time, which can make the reader feel attacked.

Andrew, I know many of these people personally. I can vouch for intentions.

So now I want to show you a few things...

Call it cherry picking if you want, but please remember that you asked for someone to try to explain what you weren't seeing...

I also did see the seemingless meaningless posts by others at the beginning of the thread where they were all saying "I'm telling you that I'm not talking to you" just like a bunch of teenage girls who are making a point of shunning someone that they've cast out. It's no good unless they know that they're being shunned after all. I chose to take the high road there and be polite to each and every person and not take their bait. I could have mis-interpreted that after all.

This response is dismissive and rude. Specifically what I bolded and italicized.

While there are meaningless posts around these forums, when a person tells you they are making the choice to respect your wishes, that should be recognized as an act of kindness. Because that is what it is. It is NOT a form of bait. (At least not from these particular people.)

Calling Mach1 mean and Drew a troll, especially insinuating that you calling him a troll stung (which I would be willing to bet it didn't), was simply unkind. Additionally, asking Ginger and her D to move in to point out your "flaws", was rude. It also indicated that you believed her intentions were to be unkind. Insulting people who are trying to help you is simply a reaction.

Something we work on around here is our reactive behavior to things. We use something called the 48 hour rule, which means we leave it for a time period (generally 48 hours) and reevaluate our feelings, before responding. To ensure our response comes from a level head and not an emotional place within us. While it is a tool to help us not engage in negative interactions with our S, it is a tool that can be employed in every facet of our lives.

Forgive me as I haven’t read all your threads.

A bunch of drivel if you ask me. The bits written by some of the other people are quite good though especially I've been told on Page 6 of this thread or the first one in my MLC posting "Am I on the right bicycle" where Jack, eric and job gave me some great perspective and some excellent tools to navigate my side of this journey.

Please ignore the last couple of pages - for some reason we all got wrapped up in over-analyzing things that don't really matter at the moment.

Again the bolded comment, is somewhat dismissive and shows a lack of appreciation and respect for the time and effort the people who wrote to you, regardless of whether you agreed with it or not.

An example of a similar comment that would not be viewed as dismissive and disrespectful would be...

"I don't agree with some of what has been written by others in my earlier threads."

The italicized section, shows a controlling tendency within you. Since you found it unimportant, so should everyone else.

However, people here find it important because all of us who have come here have those controlling tendencies and it is a hallmark complaint of MLCer's. It is generally one of the behaviors that we all become hypervigilant in trying to correct.

Yes - I come across in the written word sometimes as pompous and condescending. I even come across that way in real life at times. I've also said that I've been working on this for many years even long before BD - probably going back 20 years or more.

Andrew,

If this is how you come across in the written word, I can guarantee you this is how you come across to people in person.

You say that you have been working on it for a very long time, and I don't doubt that.

An action that would show you are working on it and are trying to change it, would be by not being that way.

That may mean rereading what you write and maybe rewriting it before you post, in the written scenario.

Slowing down in your responses and really thinking about how other people might perceive them is another action that would show you are actively working on it.

This type of behavior isn't something that just goes away. If we stop focusing on it, it will return when we don't expect it.

However, when the behavior/response continues without change, people will form the opinion that this is how you WANT to come across.

Is this how you want others to view you?

If it is, that is great, don't change a thing.

If it isn't, then I suggest trying to do something to make it different.

Right now, because I don't want to overwhelm you, I only want to address one other thing.

Please know no one is placing all of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage on you. MLC is something that none of us can control or predict. However, there are two people in any relationship. Both of those people do hold personal responsibility in the direction that relationship takes. While the LBS (most people here), isn't the one who initiates the split, both people, I will repeat, both people in the relationship have contributed to the demise of the relationship.

Andrew, if you are truly happy with the person you are and how you present yourself to the world, then please, by all means, remain exactly as you are.

Just know, that the andrewp you are, without any changes, is the andrewp that your W left.

The odds of her waking up and wanting to return to that same person, is unlikely.

Everyone around here wants the other posters to be successful in their endeavors. Whether that means through reconciliation, personal growth, job advancement, or anything else...the intention behind the majority of the posts by the people here is to help the person they are posting to reach their goals. However smooth or bumpy the road to those goals looks, is up to each of us.

[AndrewP]

cat04 - Thank you so much for stopping by and taking the time to post and to respond so thoughtfully and gently. I am in a very fragile state at present still and you have a good touch. I noticed your post about 15 minutes after you made it and as you suggested re-read it several times taking a break between reading and thought hard about it before responding now. I've also spent (as I often do) some time on this post trying to make sure that I have the content, context and message as clear as I can. As I write this I am also re-reading your post to ensure I am addressing some of what to me are the key points you have made as well as the points that I myself wish to make. As you suggest, I do in fact re-read what I post and re-write it many times, but did not on Tuesday afternoon. This post in particular has taken quite an amount of time.

While I've been told by many people that they believe that I am a high functioning autistic / low level Aspergers I have never had a formal diagnosis. I threw that label out in self-defence - something that I pretty much never tell people in order to try to highlight the message that when I was telling people repeatedly that I did not understand that in fact I did not understand. Being then told the same thing in what appeared to me to be the same way repeatedly caused my anxiety and frustration level to rise. Then having my responses, which eric accurately pointed out, were written in haste taken as being a defining characteristic of my interactions with my W added to my frustration. One thing I like about MWD's philosphy is "do what works" and when it doesn't work to try something different. This is also part of the scientific method. Nothing was working either on my side of the screen or on the other it would seem. Everything spiraled out of control and I had to walk away.

I'm not a big believer in "labels", in fact I'm uncomfortable even labeling my W as a MLC much less myself as autistic. A label fails to describe the complex swirl of chemicals, emotions, history and context that make up a human being. That is why I've been reluctant to self-announce labels that might in fact be taken to be (or be in reality) an attempt to hide behind that label and not take responsibility for my words and actions.

One of the things that I do know about myself that I can appear rude and abrupt and what I think of as a joke can be misinterpreted by others again as rudeness or being insensitive. Because of this, in my personal and professional life especially including my dealings with my W I try very hard to listen and empathize. I tend to talk very slowly, thinking over my words before they come out of my mouth or out of the keyboard. Some people find this frustrating and will rush in to complete my sentences for me, often incorrectly. When I rush, when I improvise, it will often come out in what could be seen as a "wrong" way if they can come out at all. "Tongue-tied" is a real thing and very frustrating when it happens. I have been fortunate during this journey that during a couple of critical stages, when W was going to see OM and on move-out night, that I had previously rehearsed what I was going to say and was able to effectively (I hope) deliver my message. You'll perhaps notice that many of my posts, especially in times of high stress have regular usage of the emojii. It is my attempt (which has obviously failed) to let the reader to know that I am joking and to not take what I am writing seriously.

I would like to ask everyone reading this - if there is anyone left who is reading - that the AndrewP you've seen reacting wildly is the same AndrewP who used to repeated get into school-yard fights as a pre-teen for reasons that at this distance in time I no longer remember clearly. This AndrewP is generally buried very deeply and even my W has rarely seen him. Here, in this place and at this time though when I am exposing my soul and my past for review he is more easily released and for that I do apologize deeply to any and all who may have been offended.

I hope you can see from what I've posted on other people's threads in general I try to be kind and supportive. I am also a very trusting person who tends to believe verbatim what people tell me. That also means that I very often fail to be able to pick up nuance such as has been evidenced over the last few days.

Not to try to justify or excuse myself I would like to talk about a couple of the things that you took the time to highlight and that you wished to show me.

seemingly meaningless posts - well they were indeed meaningless to me. My intention was to hope that my new visitor would not take the last couple of pages as representative of me or my journey. They were representative of an AndrewP under stress and pressure who was reacting and reacting badly.

A bunch of drivel if you ask me was an (obviously) failed bit of self-deprecating humour where I was trying to indicate that my own comments were not as important as the excellent advice I was given.

The next bit is spread over a few parts and talks about a controlling tendency that I may have. I'm going to correct that statement - it is a tendency that I do have. I've known this for many years and it is one of the many things that I work on constantly and know that I will probably never fully be able to curb. Because of that I try to be constantly vigilant. Whenever I notice myself dominating a conversation or situation I take a step back to allow others to contribute. Am I always successful? Absolutely not. Is that perhaps why I tended to have a passive role in my MR? I'm not sure, the answer to that is perhaps more complex and I hope one day to understand it. I hope as will be seen from the fact that when my W told me when she was leaving and when I found out about the A and even when she walked out of our home and my life that I never tried to control her actions bears out the fact that I have had some success with this under even high stress situations.

To wrap up, yes, I am generally happy with the AndrewP that I am. The AndrewP that people have seen in the last few days is not that AndrewP. That is the angry, scared, hurt, reactive AndrewP who rarely gets air. The AndrewP that I believe that I am is a kind, caring, thoughtful AndrewP who loves and respects his W deeply. He is kind to others, especially those who are in pain or who are scared with whom he is also gentle. He has a strong moral code that he does not apply to others and a belief that he can overcome any obstacle that may be in his path. This belief has been shaken to the core in the last 7+ months but is slowly returning. Looking outside the last few days I hope you as well will see that in my writings. Those writings though have exposed my heart, soul and spirit including those dark places that I fully know exist. Giving them air hurts me but it had been my hope that showing both the light and the dark would give people here a perspective of the entire man who is just human and trying to do the best he can.

Thank you again.

[CT1118]

"Hiya Andrew. I know your head is spinning a bit. I have to tell you that you have some of the best there is on here posting to you."

Holy Sht on a hockey stick AndrewP. Wow. I am not sure how much time you have spent combing the archives here...me quite a bit. Like 3/4 of the stories I have read, the stories containing people I have wanted to ask questions of but thought were loooooong gone, came out retirement and commented on your sitch. I cannot even recall whom I clipped the above quote from.

I do not have the energy to put it all in right now...I am exhausted for other reasons than right now. You had the best of the best giving attention and you said "when". I have got to spend a couple hours re-reading. I am not them though - we are contemporaries - I will be expecting attention when I return .

[CT1118]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwww-------I got it!!!!!! I could not recall which literary character your responses were reminding me of AP....Melville's Barnaby, Bartlenbye - something like that, brain still muffled. The guy who would just repeat "I would prefer not to". Perhaps way off - if I am not, you have another book recommend from CT118. The character is content to just be is as be is, despite his own condition. If you do not know of whom I speak, again....another book, and a short one.

[CT1118]

AP - how are you friend?

[AndrewP]

CT1118 - Thank you for asking. I'm surviving. I have joys and I have sorrows. I have pain and I have pleasure. I am alive.

This is no longer a safe place for me to expose my soul. I suspect that I exposed too much of the dark places that live inside me as they do inside all of us. I am still watching the stories of those people here who I care about including yourself.

I hope you and your son are well. I wanted to post on your thread earlier that I think you are doing the right thing by exploring your options and your own feelings on moving on. Looking at a map does not mean that you are on that journey.

Peace be with you my friend. If you wish to reach out to me outside of this place I can open a window to a room where I can be found.

[job]

Andrew,

How are you doing? Would you let us know. You don't have to go into the details of what you are doing, etc., but we are concerned about you.

[Rose888]

Andrew, I am sorry for my contribution to making this space seem unsafe to you.

Good motivations don't matter much if they lead to bad results.

[ericmsant2]

This is no longer a safe place for me to expose my soul.

I am really sorry that you feel this way. I will speak for myself in that I am respecting your wishes to not comment and let you journal. I suggest that you continue to journal as it seems to be helping you.