Confused on What to Do 2

[ericmsant2]

I've read the first 25 page thread you posted on here about your sitch and I've gotten through about 1/2 of the 39 page thread you posted. When I was reading them it was scary how you talk about how you were feeling is so similar to what I am going through now. I can relate to a lot of what you went through. It has also interesting to see how uncertain you were at the time because all the interaction I have had with you is of a confident man who is sure of himself. It is almost like your posts were from a different guy than the one that has been helping me out. Hopefully I can get to the place you are in now.

I was a very different man. I was a man struggling with fear….

Until I DECIDED and CHOOSE to change it.

You can get to the same place brother – it just takes work.

This is one of the biggest things I need to work on. I am very aware that I can change, it's just the believing in myself that is the hard part.

How do you plan to start changing it?

“hey ericmsant2….you’re on fire. I know, I know, but…but…but…I’m going to…but…but…”

Vs.

“hey ericmsant2…you’re on fire. I know – I’m jumping in the pool”

Eagle, right now…you keep talking…it is time to start ACTING and I am not suggesting you throw your W out. I am suggesting it is time to start really digging deep. Let me show you.

Another issue I need to work on. I am not sure I love myself or what I have become.

Another issue….to work on. What are you going to do about it?

Loving yourself is an ACTION. It is not some unseen mysterious thing. It is a series of actions. If you like to hike, then loving yourself is planning and actually going on a hike. I suspect that you probably feel that IF you do this you will somehow be perceived as being selfish. Taking a little time for YOU is not selfish – it is healthy.

My lack of self confidence in myself I feel is a contributing factor and something I need to turn around.

And what is YOUR plan to turn it around? Once again..I see you talking – I do not see actions or a plan.

I guess when I was younger I had dreams of what life would be like as I got older and this is not it.

Okay….what did that life look like? Describe it to me (in detail).

I will be honest, if I didn't find her attractive I probably would not have asked her for a 2nd date. This might make me shallow, but I have never dated a women that I didn't find attractive. Some were more attractive than the others and my W was by far the most attractive woman I have ever been with.

I would like to think you are being honest all the time. So what beside beauty do you look for in a partner?

I do make a lot of excuses, I know I do.

And what are YOU going to do about changing it. Hopefully you do not respond with ….I know BUT…

I can assure you that I want to be with my W and I don't really feel going through all this is easier than getting a divorce.

What if I told you that the best chance you have to be with your W is to let her go completely? Like 100%...like no more snooping….like no more talking…. Would you do it?

I could also skip out on working on myself instead of taking responsibility. Then find a job and the kids and I go live our lives.

Funny….I do not see you talking responsibility for YOUR choices. I do see you blaming your W’s craziness. I do see you sometime playing the martyr. The kids…the kids…there home… You seem to redirect ownership of YOUR choices and instead of taking action…your fallback is “but the kids”.

This stuff is hard. Having to look inside myself and all my faults.

Yes it is…and guess what…when you really start digging it get even harder.

Having to figure out how I got to this point in life and M.

Own 100% of YOUR half. Do not own her half. That is one her. Notice…your taking the ownership for the entire M. Look dude, you, me, Ginger, Drew, your kids….No ONE caused your W to go crazy. She has not dealt with her issues – that is on HER. No one suggested that she start seeing two OM – that is on HER. Yes, you have chit to work on. Work on that and leave her to her own issues.

I have gotten better, but when I saw her change the facebook name I began snooping.

What usually happens after a BUT? Pssst…hint – EXCUSE.

I need to figure out how I to face it.

So what is the first ACTION or STEP?

Everyday I think about getting a divorce

DB101 – change YOUR thoughts.

I really do love my W, but she does make me angry even though I have told her I am not angry at her.

Is not being true to yourself…someone you want to be? You ever heard the saying…if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing.

Maybe Eagle…instead of trying to talk your way out you do something different (DB101) – maybe the something different is to say NOTHING. Not lie and say something else.

I guess I have told her I wasn't angry at her because I don't understand her emotional state.

If I were a betting man….I have a feeling you did not say you were angry because you were afraid that she would push for the divorce.

She is also impulsive and doesn't think things through. That is why I think I fear her.

You fear her because you do not trust YOURSELF. You fear her because you have not deal with YOUR fear. Own it and stop blaming her.

I truly don't know who I am or who I want to be. I have to find a way to figure it out. I am confused on what I should do and how much time it should take.

1) How can you make any decisions if you do not know who you are?
2) Guess what? Right now YOU my friend can decide who YOU want to be. YOU have full control over it.
3) Who you were really does not matter. That is looking backwards and will keep you stuck. Look forward Eagle….figure out WHO you really want to be.
4) As for time….it takes as long as it takes. The key is to move forward…step by step.
So….who does EAGLE want to be?

I have heard 2 different theories on how to respond. Some say don't take this from her while others say to leave her alone and don't start conflict with her. I have obviously taken the 2nd way.

Actually BOTH theories CAN lead to you to the same place. The different is HOW and IF you choose to do the work. Look man, you can beat your chest, throw your W out, play the “manly man” thing if you will OR you could CHOOSE to DETACH, GAL, work on yourself and enforce boundaries. Your first step is DETACHMENT and GAL. You are not detach because your afraid of what SHE may do. You do not GAL because YOU are afraid of what she may do. You do not have boundaries because YOU are afraid of what she may do.

When you stop being afraid……

When you really detach….

When you really KNOW who you WANT to be….

When you really start ACTING and WORKING to address YOUR issues…

Well then buddy……

Your W may come back.

The cool thing…..is that even if she doesn’t it will be on YOUR terms.

Truth and honor….

[Drew]

See Eagle, we told you that you were in good hands.



Many, many moons ago the VERY first question my counselor asked me was:

"What are you so afraid of?"

To this day, I know what my answer was.

What's yours?

And you are NOT allowed to use the word BUT !!!

[Brubeck]

Hey Eagle,

Been keeping away for a while. Catching up on your sitch. Holy sh!t, same freaking thing! Same. Freaking. Thing. My W also dropped my last name from her Facebook profile two months ago. It's like a damn script they all follow! I didn't have the same reaction you did, because my W is having a full blown PA, so seeing her go without her last name on FB is a drop in the bucket to me.

I will concur with the others that you should keep your mouth shut. I know it's hard, really hard. You want to point things out to her, especially if the MLC has made her kind of dum dum at times. It's true, though - never let them see you sweat. Any challenge you offer looks like she's still got you on standby.

[Eagle11]

Brubeck,

Thanks for the words and advice.

Been keeping away for a while. Catching up on your sitch. Holy sh!t, same freaking thing! Same. Freaking. Thing. My W also dropped my last name from her Facebook profile two months ago. It's like a damn script they all follow! I didn't have the same reaction you did, because my W is having a full blown PA, so seeing her go without her last name on FB is a drop in the bucket to me.

It is amazing how so many of these stories are the same. It's actually amazing how much my current sitch is to the one I went thru with my W about 8 years ago. She is doing much of the same things and the same way. Thinking about that time actually calmed me down about the facebook thing because I remembered she did the same thing back then. The main difference between then and now though is back then the EA was a 5 hour flight away and now the EA is either a 3 hour drive or in another office in her building. Still her actions are nearly identical thru most of this process.

I will concur with the others that you should keep your mouth shut. I know it's hard, really hard. You want to point things out to her, especially if the MLC has made her kind of dum dum at times. It's true, though - never let them see you sweat. Any challenge you offer looks like she's still got you on standby.

I am going to keep my mouth shut. I have done a good job so far and I will stay strong in that regard. I have maintained a positive and upbeat attitude around her which might make me look weak at times. I have also never managed to beg or plead with her about any of this. I have done all my crying away from her, so I have done good with that. Now I need to really work on GALing and detaching for myself.

[Eagle11]

See Eagle, we told you that you were in good hands.



Many, many moons ago the VERY first question my counselor asked me was:

"What are you so afraid of?"

To this day, I know what my answer was.

What's yours?

And you are NOT allowed to use the word BUT !!!

Honestly, I think I am afraid of the unknown if that makes sense. Maybe the possible change scares me. I have been doing the same thing the same way for a long time, and I think I am scared of having to change up the routine. I know I am going to have to step out of my comfort zone and that is scary for me. I guess I've lived my life not to fail and now my M is failing so the unknown is what I fear the most.

[Eagle11]

Eric

How do you plan to start changing it?

I honestly don't know the correct answer. I have to figure it out. I know I have been reading and learning from others on here. I have got books that were recommended to me. I am seeing a therapist. I have to figure out a plan and I have to do it soon. I have to become more decisive.

Another issue….to work on. What are you going to do about it?

I have to get back to doing the things I enjoy doing. I need to do things for myself. My W has always felt I was selfish (and I was at times), so I have been reluctant to do things I used to always do. Even last weekend. I wanted to go on the hike but I couldn't do it because she had to work at the last minute.

I used to play in a lot of golf tournaments and I was a very good amateur golfer. I've played in state tournaments and I have one my fair share of local tournaments. I haven't played a round of golf since this all started.

Okay….what did that life look like? Describe it to me (in detail).

My dreams were to get a good education (I did), find a great job that I loved doing (I didn't), find a woman to marry (I found 2 so far), have kids (I have 2), Own a nice house in a nice part of the country (I just bought a house in June). I wanted to be a great father (getting better) and a great husband (not so much).

I would like to think you are being honest all the time. So what beside beauty do you look for in a partner?

Beauty gets me interested in the other person but I want someone who is fun to be with and my W was certainly that at the beginning. She was such a free spirit and I wasn't. In many ways we were opposites. She says she is introverted but not like me. I loved her spontaneity and the fact the she seemed to be really enjoying life. She never complained and she was always there for me. Over the years that changed in her and I think it was more me changing her than her wanting to change. I think I became too negative and that really brought her down. I think my negativity started when we bought a house when we lived in AZ. She really wanted a house and didn't really care where it was or how much it cost. This was right before the housing bust and we overpaid for a house that was too far from our jobs. I tried to talk her out wanting the house but her mind was set. From then on I started worrying about money. It was also the first time in our M that I felt I didn't have a say in a big decision. We were going to buy that house regardless of what I had to say. I actually spoke up back then, but was shot down and then just gave in to her.

What if I told you that the best chance you have to be with your W is to let her go completely? Like 100%...like no more snooping….like no more talking…. Would you do it?

That's a hard one to answer. I can give up on the snooping. I need to give up on the snooping. My life would be so much better if I gave up on the snooping. If I could just forget my phone account password my life would be better. Letting her go completely is a hard one. I know I have to get to that point, but I'm not there yet.

Yes it is…and guess what…when you really start digging it get even harder.

I have been so hard on myself. I'm much harder on myself than I am my W through this. I just feel if I could have realized what I had become we wouldn't be in this sitch.

Own 100% of YOUR half. Do not own her half. That is one her. Notice…your taking the ownership for the entire M. Look dude, you, me, Ginger, Drew, your kids….No ONE caused your W to go crazy. She has not dealt with her issues – that is on HER. No one suggested that she start seeing two OM – that is on HER. Yes, you have chit to work on. Work on that and leave her to her own issues.

Thank you. I have gotten to the point where I don't blame myself for the OM. My therapist really helped me with this. I do still blame myself for the M though. I know she has had her faults, but I keep thinking of things I didn't do to make the M work.

Maybe Eagle…instead of trying to talk your way out you do something different (DB101) – maybe the something different is to say NOTHING. Not lie and say something else.

This all came about when I found out about the pain she has been in with her dad and stepdad. She broke down and said she felt abandoned by them. She felt that everybody leaves her. This was also before OM2 came into the picture. I told her I wasn't mad and I wouldn't abandon her. She was going to therapy at the time, I naively thought she would try to work her issues out. The OM was "just a texting friend". A couple of weeks later there is another OM and I felt like an idiot. Now I feel since I told her I wouldn't abandon her then I won't. I know that is stupid, but that's what i did.

If I were a betting man….I have a feeling you did not say you were angry because you were afraid that she would push for the divorce.

It might have been part of it, but I was caught up in the emotions. She had broken down and was crying like I have never seen her cry before. She was pouring her heart out to me like she never had. I honestly thought this might have been a turning point, but I of course was wrong.

You fear her because you do not trust YOURSELF. You fear her because you have not deal with YOUR fear. Own it and stop blaming her.

I agree

1) How can you make any decisions if you do not know who you are?
2) Guess what? Right now YOU my friend can decide who YOU want to be. YOU have full control over it.
3) Who you were really does not matter. That is looking backwards and will keep you stuck. Look forward Eagle….figure out WHO you really want to be.
4) As for time….it takes as long as it takes. The key is to move forward…step by step.
So….who does EAGLE want to be?

1.I have no idea
2. I need to figure this out
3. I know
4. I need to have patience.
It's not a good feeling to be almost 40 years old and have no idea who you want to be in life.

I need to detach and find myself. I need to GAL. I have to start doing these things. I will try and have a good weekend or couple days, but then I slip back up into this mess. I actually had a good 4 or 5 days where I thought I was detaching from the sitch and then yesterday I was back to the beginning starting over again.

Thanks for the taking the time to help. I really need it.

[CT1118]

.......really trying to follow. Moving quick here Eagle11. So I read this in your reply to me, please note this one may be tough to read, and also please note, I am highlighting this as a commentary on some things asked of me on my thread by Eric and Mach1:

I don't think my S2 knew what was going on but my S6 did. He was crying and was scared. He knows what is going on. Since that night we have not had any discussions about our future in front of him but the damage was done. If he sees us talking now and it looks serious (even if its not) he will often go up to my W and put his hand over her mouth because he thinks we are going to fight.

Share this w/ s6 30+ years from now when someone asks him why he feels the need to be in control. This is where a need to control begins.

Also, are you familiar with tools of action? Don't answer, I'll tell you - tools of action connect human actors with non-human actors and back to human actors. Your wife's cell phone is a toll in her A (same as if gender roles reversed), your phone/computer/tablet is a tool of action for your spying on her A. You get into your car and follow her car, both cars are tools of action. You get it, now, can you limit time with those tools long enough to get beyond the craving? She can't, no she can't at all - to the MLC, the phone is more valuable than gold. To me, my wife's phone is her A. Yup...perspective dude. I bet you hate that f-ing thing when you see it, don't you?

It is amazing how so many of these stories are the same. It's actually amazing how much my current sitch is to the one I went thru with my W about 8 years ago.

This is me learning: How much about you is currently the same as who you were 8 years ago?

Yep, Confrontation vs. Bo Peep. Only you can decide the best approach for your sitch. It's your life.

This one frustrates does it not Eagle11? He is right tough, the better answers come in this form. There are some old posts here where (if you did) people come to DB for help and then get flooded with vet DB'rs arguing over going straight to LRT or hanging in for love, or standing, or getting tough - its a true nightmare to read, as with each contradicting argumentative post your confused mind is going "yes that's it, no that's it, wait that's it." Someone just saying its your choice is really the better option - Drew is at least acknowledging that there are two choices.

I would suggest they can intertwine and/or get one way for a bit and then go another. I would give you a direct example from my life, but I do not live w/ her and you do, so it may not be right for me to do so, so I won't.

[Eagle11]

CT1118,

Thanks for taking the time to post. I always find your posts make me think.

Share this w/ s6 30+ years from now when someone asks him why he feels the need to be in control. This is where a need to control begins.

I am afraid your right on this. I also believe despite what people say children aren't always so resilient and will be fine. We can do our best to help them, but when they see their family get torn apart at such a young age it will have an effect on them. That is one of my W's biggest issues. Her parents divorced when she was 6 and she is still dealing with that divorce 30 years later. My S6 is a lot like my wife and I fear that he might not make it thru this without a lot of hurt and depression. I will do what I can do to help him, but its really a lot for a small child to handle. I can't even handle it that well so how can I expect a 6 year old to be ok.

Also, are you familiar with tools of action? Don't answer, I'll tell you - tools of action connect human actors with non-human actors and back to human actors. Your wife's cell phone is a toll in her A (same as if gender roles reversed), your phone/computer/tablet is a tool of action for your spying on her A. You get into your car and follow her car, both cars are tools of action. You get it, now, can you limit time with those tools long enough to get beyond the craving? She can't, no she can't at all - to the MLC, the phone is more valuable than gold. To me, my wife's phone is her A. Yup...perspective dude. I bet you hate that f-ing thing when you see it, don't you?

Tools of action...yeah I have a problem with my spying. I can go a few days (I went 4 days last week) without spying but then something will trigger it and I will need to spy. That is what happened yesterday when I saw her name change on facebook. I was doing well, I was in a good place and then I found out about the name change and I'm back to the beginning starting over.

Speaking of her tool of action (her phone). She cannot be apart from it. Before she started her EA I would get frustrated with her when I would try to call her because she wouldn't answer. She would be downstairs and her phone would be upstairs. She never seemed to have it around or she would misplace it. I can't tell you the number of times I had to call her phone so she could hear it ringing and be able to find it. Now it might as well be glued to her hand. If I text her now, i get a response back in seconds.

This is me learning: How much about you is currently the same as who you were 8 years ago?

Unfortunately, I didn't learn anything from 8 years ago so the same faults/problems that led to that sitch are the same that led to this one. In the winter of 2008/2009 she started an EA with a guy in Ohio (we were living in AZ). I was angry and we fought, but after a while I didn't care. I didn't know anything about DBing at the time but I basically detached from her. I also was GALing. Her EA went on for around 2 months or so. It ended when she flew to Ohio to see him, they made out in some bar and she called me from her parents house to tell me. When she got back home I basically cut off all contact with her. I lived in the guest room and didn't hardly see her. I would work evenings sometimes and weekends so our paths didn't really cross that much. I had pretty much given up on getting back together with her but I wasn't going to file for divorce. At some point I came home from work and found divorce papers on my bed. I remember looking at them and tossing them in the drawer of my nightstand. She asked me later if I was going to sign them and I told her no. We lived like this for a few more weeks or so. One night I was bored and starting looking on my computer at dating websites. I wasn't really looking to date, but I was just curious what was out there since I figured I'd be getting a divorce at some point. A day or 2 later I come home and my W is angry and confronts me in the kitchen about the websites I had visited. Apparently she looked at the history and saw where I had went to. She was upset and crying. I kind of blew her off and went to my room. The next couple of weeks we started talking and before we knew it we were back together.

Unfortunately, we never worked on our problems and that is why I'm back in the same situation. I wish I could get that attitude I had back then though. I really got to a point where I didn't care. I know I wasn't scared back then like I am now. I was more angry than anything. I think the main difference in my attitude between then and now is my kids. I didn't have any kids back then to worry about. All we owned between us was a house (which she could have because I hated it) and a car (which she could have because I had my own). If our M wouldn't have worked out I would have packed up and got on with my life. With the current sitch it's my kids that I think mentally keep me from having that attitude. I just want this M to work for not only me but for our family.

This one frustrates does it not Eagle11? He is right tough, the better answers come in this form. There are some old posts here where (if you did) people come to DB for help and then get flooded with vet DB'rs arguing over going straight to LRT or hanging in for love, or standing, or getting tough - its a true nightmare to read, as with each contradicting argumentative post your confused mind is going "yes that's it, no that's it, wait that's it." Someone just saying its your choice is really the better option - Drew is at least acknowledging that there are two choices.

I would suggest they can intertwine and/or get one way for a bit and then go another. I would give you a direct example from my life, but I do not live w/ her and you do, so it may not be right for me to do so, so I won't.

This is the most frustrating thing for me. I need to find a way to figure this out. I don't think with my W and her mental state being tough with her is the best option. With her abandonment issues, her rape issues, daddy issues I think being tough with her will push her over the edge. I also know I can't be too easy on her either. She and I are acting as friends right now. We haven't argued since really the week this started. She hasn't shown me any anger for a while. If I could figure out some type of hybrid of the two it might work.

[Ginger1]

I still can't quote parts properly, but this stuck out to me:

you wish you could get that attitude back where you just don't care

Then you go onto mention you would have just packed up and left if there was kids if it didn't work out.

You don't want to get that attitude back where you don't care. Caring is good. Detachement is often mistaken for not caring anymore. It's healthy to care if this doesn't work out. Apathy is what we wish we could feel sometimes. You want to feel that right now so you don't feel pain. I'm going through a bit of that myself at present. I wish I could feel apathy, but it's not in my make-up and I know it' a good thing.

The difference we have here between not caring if this doesn't work out is that you just need to know you will be fine and you will rebuild your life. But caring is healthy.

[Eagle11]

Ginger,

I understand what you are saying. Maybe I shouldn't say I didn't care. I cared about my W and I didn't want a divorce. I think what I was trying to say is I wish I could get the attitude back that if the M would be over I would be OK. 8 years ago I wasn't as scared at the prospect of losing my M like I am now. Back then I desperately was trying to save my M, but I had a totally different attitude than now.

I think I had apathy back then. I have no idea how I got there. I didn't read any books, I didn't know about DB, I did go to a therapist but it was a waste of time. I basically had the attitude that I was not going to give up on the M, but if it didn't work out I would be fine. It might have been just the place in life I was at the time. We had no kids and had been married for just over 3 years. Maybe I didn't have the investment in the M then that I have now so the prospect of losing the M is harder for me now.