Well - I think that this is the first time I've started a new thread without a completely new title. The reason being - the phantom cyclist is still not to be heard from. To use the old commedian's gag "I know you're out there - I can hear you breathing" she is out there but I have no clue at all as to what is going on.
Links to past threads. A lot of rambling nonsense if you ask me. It all seemed so very important at the time. There are some good bits in the MLC threads though largely written by other people.
First to address the thoughts that Mach1, Spartan and Rose888 have been so kind as to share. I hope you'll forgive me that my response is much shorter than the work you put into your posts.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Was your life together one of Love, or Obligation ?? <snip> I'm not going to tell you that you are right or wrong. Only you can decide that. <snip> What you are feeling probably isn't duty, and it could be love.
Yet it also could be fear...
I haven't read a person here, that hasn't glorified the relationship a bit to justify their stand. At least in the beginning...
Was the love real ?
I'm sure that it was, and maybe still is...
But I would bet, that if you are totally honest with yourself.
The fear of losing her, and the fear of losing the relationship is greater right now...
How much of that is through rose colored glasses ? <snip> What is the difference between Love and Obligation ???
Mach1 - thanks for taking the time to post and for asking me to re-examine things. I believe that I can honestly say that what is keeping me standing is indeed the love that I have for W. I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned. Much of the rose has worn off my glasses and I don't have an idealized version of goddess W in my mind. She was and is a very real person with both postive and negative qualities which I've known all along. "She" is more important to me than any of those though. I've been challenged multiple times to think hard and honestly about whether I do want to stay married to her or not and today's answer is yes.
I would like to offer these definitions if I may: - Obligation - something you feel a need to do whether you are happy about it or not like taking out the garbage or cleaning the catbox. Obligations can also be thrust upon you by others. - Duty - something that is part of your identity that makes you complete. A stronger form of obligation because you take it willingly on yourself and by being true to your duty you show strength. You can have a duty to things, people or ideals. - Love - is completly different. Is it chemical, biological? I can't say. Love is a gift you give from yourself to others of devotion, understanding and compassion. Sometimes those others do not accept it and sometimes they do. When they do not you have heartbreak and the need to heal like I'm trying to do now. I'd post 1st Corinthains 13:4-8 here but I'm sure we've all hear them before. Even though I'm only nominally Christian I take those words to heart just like I did on my wedding day.
My fear of losing W was indeed quite extreme but from BD1 I told her honestly that if she chose to leave that I would let her go and that is indeed still true. While I still fear the unknown of forever losing her much of my fear of being alone or of starting fresh with someone else is gone but certainly lots still remains. For now though my love for her keeps me standing while she makes her own choices. What tomorrow will bring? I don't know.
Originally Posted By: Spartan
I have so many things I want to throw out here to get you thinking about your sitch differently after reading all 11 pages last night but let's stick with love v. obligation. For me that was one of the biggest hurdles to get past and boy did I fight it. After the bomb I wore rose colored glasses only to find out I also had rose colored contacts on because I just didn't want to figure this one out because it was a major fault of mine. <snip> Yeah you'll have feelings for someone but at the end of the day love is a choice. Love is putting someone else's needs before yours no matter what, love is listening to your spouse and supporting them how they need to be supported (with advice, just listening, etc...), love is doing the things they like, love is planning a date night as a surprise instead of watching tv and drinking a few beers. Love is letting them go if that's what they want. Love is a choice, love is not a feeling. <snip> So, to ask you again. Did you really love your wife or did you play the role you thought you were supposed to play? Don't feel bad if it's the second because we work with the tools we have.
Going forward how does this definition of love change you and how you act towards others?
Spartan - thanks for the post. You could have almost written 1st Corinthians yourself in modern verse complete with TV watching I'm glad you didn't drag yourself to the previous threads which were mostly blather
Over the 28 years we were together I will certainly admit that there were times when duty and obligation carried me through when just love wasn't enough. That to me is what makes a marriage work though. For better and for worse aren't just words, they're the reality that couples have to live each and every day.
I will freely admit that I am not a perfect human being and that there are indeed things that I could "improve" about myself. More importantly to me at least though is being comfortable and confident in my own boots and in my own skin. I believe that I am getting there again. That may sound cocky especially for someone who has found themselves here and yes, that's one of my flaws
Originally Posted By: Rose888
Interesting. I'm coming to believe that each of us view these threads through the lens of our own situation.
Several of you think the critical issue is about love--what is it, did he ever feel it, etc.
I think the critical issue is being emotionally fused with his W and not having the emotional detachment and self-validation that's necessary for a long-term relationship. Probably because that's one of the key issues in my sitch.
You know what they say: when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Rose888 - I couldn't agree with you more that we each view this through the lens of our own situation. And yes, I was and probably still am emotionally fused with my W. A lot of the codependancy stuff was relatively recent (I believe) and if she ever comes back I hope to be able to not fall into that trap again. I've learned so very much about myself and relationships through this journey.
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Incredibly minor update.
I had my IC session today and it went fairly well. She was glad that some of the self-awareness tools she had given me worked when the darkness of depression hit hard. Mostly exercises to focus on something physical like the feel of the gear shift under my hand and also some breathing to focus on the existence of my body. Mumbo-jumbo perhaps but it works for me. She was also pleased to hear that the tools that Jack (knowing that I'm W's #1 choice) and eric (changing resentment of W for needing to hide her A to protection of the MR) worked for me. She gave me some new homework that I haven't gone through yet. Probably more mumbo-jumbo but those witch doctors were perhaps on to something then. We have both seen a lot of improvement in me since I've started seeing her. Yes, I'm still incredibly fragile but the pieces go back together faster and it takes more most of the time to knock me to pieces. I did talk to her about my concerns about perhaps going into a MLC myself or entering into a new R too soon and she felt that because I was aware of this and do not have a history of taking rash actions that I would probably be fine. I think she was frustrated just like me that I'm stuck on this bike which seems stationary while W tries to sort herself out. Just like everyone here too she encouraged me to go out and experience life.
One the W front there continues to be complete silence. One thing that caught my attention though was that her brother has just checked into a campground very close to us yesterday. This is perfectly reasonable, he and his W are trying the RV lifestyle and there's a golf-course there. Presumably visits with W will also happen. No telling what sort of "advice" she would get this time - more on that below. I did have a bit of a panic when I realized that a second round of stripping the house could well happen. After W moved out we exchanged texts (which I kept) and she agreed that she would need to arrange with me before removing anything else - not sure if that would happen. I expect her brother was behind most of the stripping of antiques and valuables. I thought about locking the house so that W would have to contact me to get in. There was an inner door that we'd just left the key in (long irrelevant story) and I've put that key on my key ring and put the spare one where we've hidden the spare keys for years. It may throw her off a bit but not for long and I've always felt uncomfortable having that key sitting there. I've installed a security system which W knows about that will alert me if she comes into the house and I have a fairly good inventory of what's left after the first round of stripping. To be honest, there's a lot of junk here that I would prefer to see gone still. On top of that legally I cannot deny W access to the marital home and I also don't want to contradict what I've told her that our home remains open to her. Anyways - it's just stuff.
In the realm of "probably a really bad idea" I was thinking of sending a text to W in a couple of weeks saying "Forever is sometimes done one day at a time. 200 days so far. Please come home". Yeah - she already knows and yeah - bad idea to prod the sleeping giant.
Just as an aside about BIL and W's family since it's buried deep in the past threads. BIL had an EA (he claims not PA) a couple of years ago. His W got upset and started the D process. During mediation he found out that she had a lot of money saved away in her own name and suddenly decided to reconcile. Not a strong basis for that and she watches him like a hawk and he looks nervous a lot of the time. I presume he's a prime candidate to dive back into an A if he thought he could get away with it. Early in our own journey W had talked to him about our R. I found out later from him (he was explaining to me how stupid I was) that he had told her that divorce is perfectly normal, having affairs is fine and that lots of people marry their AP and are perfectly happy. He encouraged her to do whatever made her happy and that I had no say in it at all. W's oldest sister (a great-grandmother at 60) has had and has multiple A even though she and her H never split. Her H came into a lot of money though so ..... She's also officially diagnosed as bi-polar which is a term that my IC used when I referred to MLC. Finally W's father was somewhat of a legend among his coworkers for being wayward. Even in his 80s he's still trying to pick up women. MIL is long suffering and they now spend a lot of time in the nursing home arguing with each other.
Anyway - back to our regularly scheduled tour. Tonight I think I'm going to take myself out for dinner and perhaps have a walk around the village first.
Thanks again everyone both who posted and who have read.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
It is pleasant to talk with you and that makes it easy to do so. It doesn't feel like I'm trying to push my head through a brick wall, and I am sure that others would agree. The ability to honestly take stock of yourself is vital to this.
Ok enough unicorns and rainbows.
Quote:
I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned.
That is conditional love. I will love someone if they love me. It is a hard cycle to get out of, but I think important...because as a conditional emotion...it also goes this way. She hates me, I hate her. Unconditional love...its almost like a higher state of being. Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, helll a few people here.
Quote:
Much of the rose has worn off my glasses and I don't have an idealized version of goddess W in my mind. She was and is a very real person with both postive and negative qualities which I've known all along. "She" is more important to me than any of those though.
YAY! No rose colored glasses. That is huge. Let me explain why. I'm going to use when, not if, ok? Ok good. When she comes back, you need to be realistic about what you are seeing and if you have her on a pedestal, the creature of grace and beauty, the woman who launched a thousand ships is really the pimply, overweight, dishevelled and broken creature you see in front of you she will be going to be on your "con" side of reasons to stay together,because she isn't living up to your fantasy version of her.
Quote:
I've been challenged multiple times to think hard and honestly about whether I do want to stay married to her or not and today's answer is yes.
Today is not the day you quit. : ) I am really proud of you for that answer.
Quote:
In the realm of "probably a really bad idea" I was thinking of sending a text to W in a couple of weeks saying "Forever is sometimes done one day at a time. 200 days so far. Please come home". Yeah - she already knows and yeah - bad idea to prod the sleeping giant.
We have seen this before, and here is my thinking of why people post things like this. A part of the poster is DESPERATELY HOPING someone here will say...This is such a good idea!!
It' isn't. You are correct, a bad idea. I mean...statistically speaking and from a lot of different people.
I mean you could do it...try something different if you want to see change, right? But I strongly suggest that the outcome that this message provides is something you don't forget anytime soon.
After you touched the hot stove as a kid, did you learn a lesson?
Quote:
Anyway - back to our regularly scheduled tour. Tonight I think I'm going to take myself out for dinner and perhaps have a walk around the village first.
I think you deserve it. I hope you enjoy the hell out of it.
I have a small thing I want you to do. You aren't going to want to. But I REALLY think it would be good for your state of mind. Maybe not tonight but soon. Flirt with the waitress. No saying take her home, not saying get a date. Just compliment her, get her to smile.
There is a reason.
Maybe you can tell me what you think it is.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
I didn't want to break Andrew on the second project I gave him, if this was way out of his comfort zone. I'm already asking him to leave his comfy box with this.
Andrew if you are comfortable enough; flirt with the waiter if that is the case. The idea is to get someone to smile.
BTW Chicken Marsala? Since no: Dear God in heaven thank you for that amazing recipe Jack...I'm thinking you haven't tried it yet. Sir...this recipe is proof that God wanted us to eat chicken. Just like Yoga pants are proof that God is a man.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Ginger, I think Jack must be a waiter somewhere. Lol!!!
Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13 BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room" 8/15: H back to MBR 10/15: H back in dorm room 1/18: H files, now divorced
Jack - I enjoy our chats as well as those of some of the others who have been kind enough to come to call here.
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Quote:
I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned.
That is conditional love. I will love someone if they love me. It is a hard cycle to get out of, but I think important...because as a conditional emotion...it also goes this way. She hates me, I hate her. Unconditional love...its almost like a higher state of being. Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, helll a few people here.
It's difficult to get across complex emotions and concepts here for me sometimes. Context is important too. I do indeed love W unconditionally just like I love my children unconditionally. That quote above was talking about the day to day slog of standing for W and our future MR. Even unconditional love doesn't always burn brightly especially on days that I feel overwhelmed by the silence or when something knocks me on my @ss. Those days I throw other wood on the fire knowing that the spark of love will ignite again. (look at me using metaphors and everything).
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
When she comes back, you need to be realistic about what you are seeing and if you have her on a pedestal, the creature of grace and beauty, the woman who launched a thousand ships is really the pimply, overweight, dishevelled and broken creature you see in front of you she will be going to be on your "con" side of reasons to stay together,because she isn't living up to your fantasy version of her.
It's the broken part that will be hardest to deal with especially knowing that I still can't "fix" her even then. I can be the shore that she can rest on though. I do have pictures of her launching ships - at least my 16' sloop when she christened it bending over on the dock to do it .... hmmm - might need to dig that picture out and put on some of these slightly red glasses ....
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Today is not the day you quit. : ) I am really proud of you for that answer.
And thanks to you and job for giving me that perspective.
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
We have seen this before, and here is my thinking of why people post things like this. A part of the poster is DESPERATELY HOPING someone here will say...This is such a good idea!!
After you touched the hot stove as a kid, did you learn a lesson?
I tend to be a slow learner and I admit hopeful that some of my wilder ideas might work. Burned myself on the same lightbulb 3 times working in the hall closet last weekend. Silly story time - when we were kids the electric dryer shorted out and no adults were around. We couldn't figure out which fuse was involved (Dad was "creative" when it came to electricity) so we took turns touching it and getting zapped until we found the right fuse.
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
I have a small thing I want you to do. You aren't going to want to. But I REALLY think it would be good for your state of mind. Maybe not tonight but soon. Flirt with the waitress. No saying take her home, not saying get a date. Just compliment her, get her to smile.
There is a reason.
Maybe you can tell me what you think it is.
I honestly have no clue. I will think on it while I flirt with the waitress or waiter (Hi Ginger!) this evening. I'm not an agressive "flirt" but I will always use extra manners and usually get a smile so this might not be as big of a challenge as you think. I'll up it a small notch tonight - not enough that I become the creepy married guy hitting on them though. Unless it's one of S22's friends who works there. That "would" be creepy.
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans/Ginger
BTW Chicken Marsala? Since no: Dear God in heaven thank you for that amazing recipe Jack...I'm thinking you haven't tried it yet. Sir...this recipe is proof that God wanted us to eat chicken. Just like Yoga pants are proof that God is a man.
All right already! I only tend to cook a couple of evening meals / week here and have been working through the freezer. I'll pick up some marsala and cooking sherry. The recipe is printed off and is with my cookbooks.
Before you ask, I make myself a hot breakfast every day and have for many years. - On days I travel to work it's a bowl of plain oatmeal (the rolled oats, not the pre-done junk) with a spoon of honey on it. And yes the honey is put on it in a heart shaped pattern because I'm a softie. I also will take two eggs, mix in some salsa and microwave that. - On days I am home I will have 2 breakfast sausages (I repack them into little baggies 2 at a time before freezing - have for a long time), a potato pattie and two fried eggs over medium along with a glass of milk.
- For lunches for work I will have a roast beef sandwich on rye bread, a small dish of Greek yogurt, a dish of fruit (I buy the flash frozen so it stays "fresh"), a bowl of vegetables (usually green pepper and cucumber). For later in the day I have a wrap with hummus and spinach and a bit of green pepper in it and an apple. This is the same lunch that W made me for years up until BD2. She was in the middle of doing it when I asked her about OM and even though shaking kept working on it. After that day though I couldn't rely on her to be home in the evenings and just started doing it myself.
Unrelated story as well about yoga pants and the mind of a MLC. First keep in mind that W is not the most trim person in the world. One of the things that perhaps helped shield her going to see OM was that when she would leave on one of her "walks" she would often be wearing yoga / exercise pants with matching tight top (often). They did provide a lot of support just like a typical foundation garment does but left pretty much nothing to the imagination. The "before" W wouldn't be caught dead in public in such things so it never crossed my mind that she was dressing this way for OM until a bit later. That came when we went to Walmart and she wore one of those pants complete with camel toe plus a baggy sweatshirt. I did chuckle a bit to myself about her discomfort when she realized how she was dressed and kept tugging the sweatshirt down.
PS - Thanks Jack
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I'm glad you didn't drag yourself to the previous threads which were mostly blather 
We have seen this before, and here is my thinking of why people post things like this. A part of the poster is DESPERATELY HOPING someone here will say...This is such a good idea!!