Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 3)

[sandi2]

I feel hopeful at times, too; then get set back when The Cold Front blows in, realize I'm not close to detached, and, well,

So, you base whether or not to feel hopeful upon your W's warmth/coldness? I think many LBH'S probably do. Just like you decide if something works......based on positive feedback. Sounds logical, right? The only problem is....if you have a wayward W....you could feel completely hopeless watching her actions from day to day as some type of arrow pointing to "working" or "not working". Although the above quote came from JRuss, I am speaking to you who have been posting about this subject.

If you have a WW, things will probably get worse before getting better. Why? Well first of all, you cannot nice her back......and I think that's what you want to do. That is what you have always done to keep the relationship bearable. And here's another shocker. Have you ever been in a check out line at a store and looking at the magazine covers, or maybe you've been waiting in a doctor's office and flipping through magazines? There are a lot of short articles that are supposingly giving techniques that are known for having a happier, closer, sexier, or whatever kind of MR. If the MR wasn't in crisis, a person might be able to use those bubble gum techniques. However, by the time a person finds their way to the board.....their MR is in crisis. If she has developed a wayward mindset, then she will not respect your "good ole boy" nice-guy approach. And, a H who says they don't believe their W is wayward b/c he has seen no evidence of an A? And the H who wants to take all the blame for her behavior? And the H who starts doing everything he can.....so she doesn't have to? He's a H who is wearing blinders. He is trying to convince himself that he is the problem. That if he can "prove" how much he loves her, it will change her mind about wanting out of the M.

The H could have contributed to the relationship breaking down, but once she drops the bomb, he needs a solid plan of action. Yes, he needs to search himself and see where he needs to make personal improvements to be a better man.........however, if he has the mindset that she will reward his efforts in a sweet, warm, loving response.........he will risk high disappointment and his "hope" could struggle to hang in there. If he has a WW, there will realistically be one of, at least, three responses from her. 1) she recognizes his changes but....... it's too little, too late; 2) she's angry that he waited till she was done; 3) she sees it as a gimmick to win her back.

When a W is wayward, she does not care about the MR. She is not interested in seeing what a terrific H you can be now. She doesn't want you trying to show her how great things could be if she would give it another chance. I believe the mindset of the WW is what you can't wrap around your brain. You won't accept that your efforts in showing her how hard you are trying to be a better H isn't working. Then, your hopes fade and you start wondering if it's time to throw in the towel.

Don't throw in the towel yet. Just change your mindset. Stop watching her and measuring your efforts on her feedback. When you change your point of view, you will not be hanging onto every little word & act from her.

A lot of H's on the board have the nice guy syndrome. Some of the H's are very proud of it. However, one of the biggest problems with the NG syndrome is his passivity. He wants to nice his WW back, and he doesn't want to toughen up. He wants nothing to do with a plan that would require him to operate outside his comfort zone. Therefore, he makes excuses for his W's wayward behavior.......and excuses for his passive-aggressive behavior.

The WW does not respect her passive H. She will manipulate and bully him. So, if he should decide what he's doing isn't working.....I suggest the he develops a plan of action, and have his focus on respect. Nothing he does will help his MR if his W does not respect him.

You newcomers are looking at the W's response. If it's good, then you are happy and call it "progress". If her response is not good, you are down and call it a "setback". Can't you see how you are riding a roller coaster that doesn't stop? Can't you see that you will not pull her out of her wayward mindset by continuing to play the passive good ole boy? She will never desire you, if she doesn't respect you.

I am not telling you to be a bad man. I am not telling you to mistreat her. I am telling you that your passive, nice-guy behavior does not work on a WW.

[Jug]

Sandi- can you speak to the balance of being a nice guy and being cold? I'm struggling with this right now.

[RSG]

Now, don't hold me up as some success story. Obviously I'm not, but for every zig and zag I make I'm making progress.

Don't make your W your focus. Make you your focus. Whether it's things you want to work on to become a better man, being the best Daddy you can be, getting out and making new friends or spending time with those you simply didn't have time for, trying something new....whatever it is, put your focus on those things. The more she sees you don't need her to be happy, the more she sees you and wonders about you.

When she calls you or texts you, by rule don't answer the first ring nor text right back. Don't be available. You don't need her, you're busy! Stand up for yourself, don't let her walk all over you. Sure it won't happen overnight, but little by little you'll gain respect back. Be firm but calm and let her know you don't accept the way she's speaking to you, and if it persists she can (say goodbye to your child and to) please leave.

It's not easy. Do your best to do YOUR thing and not focus on her. Live your life without her, and show her that. You, like me, probably have to fake it in the beginning. Eventually, you'll feel it and you won't have to fake anymore. Setbacks? Sure! Don't beat yourself up over them, but bring your venting, confusion, tears, etc HERE because you'll get the help you need. It's certainly helped for me, or else I WOULD have taken numerous steps backwards!!

This is a start of what has helped me.

Jug, being a nice guy basically means always being there when needed even if you're not being treated the same. Cold sort of means indifferent, but you're not indifferent you're just busy!

[JRuss]

Sandi2 -- thanks for stopping by and for your post.

I think where I and several other LBS struggle is that what you're advocating in a lot of ways runs head on -- and even contradicts -- DB.

Some of us were told by WAW/WW we were poor listeners. What's the 180 for that? Teach ourselves to listen, then actually listen when she wants to talk about something, validate, etc. But then we hear that we're just being Mr. Nice Guy baking and serving all the cake she can eat. I personally was told I "didn't support" my W. I'm still not sure what the $%^& she was talking about, but moving away, remaining aloof -- all of that flies in the face of anything that might be termed a 180 in DB. I was also told I didn't do enough around the house and domestically -- but I'm Mr. Nice Guy if I vacuum or straighten or pick up groceries or decide to cook one night.

I know I struggle with this and suspect a few others posting here do, too.

[JRuss]

Paradigmatic weekend for me. Saturday AM starts off with W-initiated LM, so that was pretty great, although confusing. Get up, have some coffee, W joins me on the porch before the kids get up, and W mentions that she's going to go IC this week. I'm thinking, hmmm, that could be positive. I've felt all along that she has certain fundamental internal problems and issues that cause her to look at me and scapegoat our relationship as the reason for those things, and maybe she could start working through it all and start .

But then she tells me who the IC is, and she reminds me that it's the IC her $%#& echo chamber validator friend used "when she was going through her divorce".

So, that's great. Go spend our money getting a more expensive version of your validating $%&* friends and emerge on the other side strong enough to do what's best for you. Wonderful.

[doodler]

JRuss,

I don't think I've ever seen the word "paradigmatic" before. I had to look that one up.

Your post gave me a great idea. Remember the auto-translator on Star Trek? We LBSs need an auto-validator that validates everything a WS says. It could have settings for ethnicity and intonation; "Yo b*tch you gots the booty thang goin' on..."

Get your DB Auto-Validator today with four easy payments of just $29.95.

[Rose888]

JRuss, can you remind me--your wife works full-time, right? Is she an involved mom? (I don't mean a super, Pinterest mom, but someone who gets the kids where they need to be, reads to them, cooks for them, talks to them about their day, etc.) Are her GAL activities in reasonable balance for a working mom?

Are you carrying your weight around the house, truly? (This time of year, it's interesting to think about things like this--Do you have to ask your wife what the kids' schedule is for the day or week? Who figures out what new clothes still fit, takes them shopping for new stuff, and gets rid of the old? Who fills out all those blasted forms that the school sends? Who makes sure that kiddo remembers pajama day or takes the classroom snack on the right day?)

I might be remembering details wrong, but I don't have the impression your wife has turned into a selfish wild child. Maybe I'm wrong.

[JRuss]

JRuss, can you remind me--your wife works full-time, right? Is she an involved mom? (I don't mean a super, Pinterest mom, but someone who gets the kids where they need to be, reads to them, cooks for them, talks to them about their day, etc.) Are her GAL activities in reasonable balance for a working mom?

Hi Rose. Yes, my W works full time. This is relatively recent, as in about the last 14 months. For the prior 8-9 years, she worked, but was underemployed (at least intellectually) so she could have more time with the children. She became deeply unhappy with this, tried to get a better job, but it took a long time due to the economy and inertia, and she got mad at me for not supporting her. With the four of us already living a stressful life, I was worried about the impact on all of us if she added 10-15 hours of additional work to her life. I eventually woke up, and I've been very supportive for the last 2 years or so as she first found the job, and, since, as she's tried to claw her way into a position she can grow with.

She is anything but a Pintarest mom, but she is actively engaged in their lives, cooks for them, talks to them about their problems. Yes to all of that. Her main GAL is running (she's really fast, has qualified for Boston twice, etc.) and doing things with girlfriends. She is also a huge reader.

Are you carrying your weight around the house, truly? (This time of year, it's interesting to think about things like this--Do you have to ask your wife what the kids' schedule is for the day or week? Who figures out what new clothes still fit, takes them shopping for new stuff, and gets rid of the old? Who fills out all those blasted forms that the school sends? Who makes sure that kiddo remembers pajama day or takes the classroom snack on the right day?)

I did not always carry my weight. This was a huge source of anger and resentment for my W. I've worked for the last two+ years to be much more weight-bearing, and I can say that, right now, I'm doing at least as much as my W, if not a little more. She tends to have a better grasp on a lot of the details that you mention, so she identifies the need for PJs, say, but I end up doing most of the legwork in terms of going out and getting what needs to be gotten. She has told me that she no longer thinks I don't pull my weight, but it hasn't helped rekindle the attraction she feels like she needs to have.

I might be remembering details wrong, but I don't have the impression your wife has turned into a selfish wild child. Maybe I'm wrong.

No, she's not a wild child. She just quit on our marriage, really. She feels badly about it, but I've never been able to make any real headway on the core issue (she doesn't see me "that" way any more), despite taking all of her issues (at least that she told me about) and working on them all as hard as I know how. While I try to regain attractive qualities, she battles only with whether to stick it out in an unhappy life or forging out on her own at some future time when she thinks the kids will be ok with it.

[JRuss]

LOL, doodler. I'd like to use a Star Trek phaser (set to Stun!) on her at times, too.

[Rose888]

Thanks for the extra details.

I don't think vacuuming or cooking in this situation is being Mr. Nice Guy. I think it's being an adult and pulling your weight. It sounds like you have stepped it up in this area, so I'd keep that up.

Likewise, I'd listen and validate when she shares. As you point out, this is a 180 for you. But don't pursue. Let her initiate.

What are you doing to GAL and to be responsible for your own happiness? The more you work on that, the more unavailable you will seem, without needing to be cold or dodging your responsibilities. It will probably feel like acting at first, but the more you do it, the more you will find moments when you are fully into that and forget about her. Someone who is passionate about interests and internally happy and confident is very attractive. Not to mention a lot happier person to be!