Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 3)

[ForGump]

JRuss-- just two thoughts, nothing revelatory.

Every time I read about you & your W... I just get the sense that there should be some hope there. Sorry if that takes you down the wrong path. But I just intuit that your W -- despite what she says and "almost" moving out -- she's got some feelings that makes her not ready to implode your family.

The other thing is -- I think you have to think hard about what MWD says about cheeseless tunnels. You've tried *all* kinds of stuff to DB. I think you have to think hard about what works. You have the luxury of trial & error ... many of us do not have that.

My $0.02's worth this morning.

[JRuss]

FG -- I feel hopeful at times, too; then get set back when The Cold Front blows in, realize I'm not close to detached, and, well, I'm sure you've seen the thousand-word posts and related blatherings. I think hope is maybe ok if moderated, but expectation is no good, and I've been trying to figure out where one begins and the other ends. It's a work in progress.

Re your second point, understanding what does NOT work for me/us is easy: R talks really, really don't work. Trying to get her to go to lunch or on a date night, at least right now -- don't work. Showing her a scholarly article on pursuer/distancer dynamics, trust me, does not work.

But knowing what "works" is harder, because I don't get a lot of positive or immediate feedback. She's always been a shower more than a teller in terms of expressing happiness or affection, so that's not that unusual. I pretty much try to stick with stuff that doesn't immediately and angrily land me in the areas the things in the preceding paragraphs land me. 180s (of which GALing is one, actually -- I was really lazy and tunnel-visioned during my depressed period) make me happy and don't seem to put me in a worse position, so I do those: lots of chores around the house, try to listen really well (avoiding my tendency to want to "fix" and validate), exercise, eat right, have an outward zeal for life, etc.

[ForGump]

You are on death row for 2 years. You can spend that time worried about the day of reckoning, or you can enjoy your ribeye, fries and a sundae each day (what I'd get) til the day comes.

Just mouthing off. Can't work w/ the fn guillotine over my head.

BTW, can you imagine what kind of a guy your W is fantasizing about once she gets rid of you? (I can, for my W, based on her EA). And what makes her happy, apart from H + kids? Is she doing those things? Is *she* GAL-ing to make herself happy? If she's not working on being healthy, she'll always blame you for making her unhappy.

[JRuss]

Yeah, I've tortured myself with what "next guy" would be like. Honestly, he'd be a lot like me, at least the me that I've turned into. I think she has no faith any of my changes will be permanent so sees me as I was. Which, honestly, is probably fair given the time she had that me and the time I've been new me. I need to prove it's permanent change and not a sudden, ultimately doomed crash course that will disappear soon enough.

I also try to come at it from a different angle, though, one you and I (I think) have discussed previously. I try to draw up a mental list of all of the attributes "next guy" would have to have to represent an honest improvement over what she has currently (or at least will have if she can trust that the changes aren't just a short-term ploy). The list is really long. The problem with that is that, in her mind, as-of-yet-unidentified next guy is perfect. He has no flaws, because she hasn't met him yet, and he hasn't had to spend even a second under her pretty stringent judging system. So I'm competing with Mr. Perfect. Other times I think she just looks at it like a break from the life she doesn't particularly likes, at least when I would have the kids.

[ForGump]

I think she has no faith any of my changes will be permanent so sees me as I was.

I try to draw up a mental list of all of the attributes "next guy" would have to have...

My W gets frustrated w/ me because I have no trouble entertaining various ideas about a situation, from different angles -- whereas for her, to entertain an idea is almost like committing to it and living the reality of it (poor impulse control, I told you.)

So, for me, considering "what the next guy is like" is kind of an exercise in trying to understand her frame of mind. What does she *think* she's missing from me. But I don't necessarily buy that that's what is *good* for her, and I don't necessarily buy that *that's* the guy I need to become.

I would tell you, JRuss, to be the guy who you want to be. Surprise yourself. Surprise her. Don't fit within her neurotic mental box. Be the guy that makes *you* happy. Maybe what she likes is *exactly* the guy who doesn't give a damn. The guy doesn't mind making mistakes, and just moves on to something else the next day.

As always, as I talk to you, I'm really talking to me...

[sandi2]

I wanted to respond about what wakes her up. I can't remember which thread I posted to recently about my experience. My H had nothing to do with "my loss" when I was wayward. For me, it was like the timing had led me up to that exact point, and then.....WHAM! Reality of what my wardness was costing me.

It may not be just one specific thing that wakes up your WW (I am speaking to anyone who has a wayward spouse). It may be an accumulation of consequences, before it starts shaking her awake.

From the point of her recognizing her loss comes from her waywardness behavior......to the point of you seeing her change back into the person you married......may not happen in the same 24 hr period. I believe it largely depends on the individual stitch.

For example, I never physically S from my H. Thanks to some people on the DB board at that time who were giving me information I needed. I ended my A and decided to stay with my H. However, I did not apologize to him, and I was not remorseful. I was simply willing to stay. I was very depressed and went through several months of withdrawals from the A addiction. It took a long time before I felt the remorse and could go to my H with a humble heart for what I had done. You see, I stopped overtly rebelling, but I still harbored resentment & disrespect....plus, I had false pride.

I don't tell all of this to discourage you, although, it probably isn't something you were wanting to hear. It's my intentions to help you to understand that her waking up and you seeing your old wife back, takes time. The length of time varies from woman to woman. Your pain and her pain are on different time tables. Your work and her work are on different time tables.

When her fantasy implodes and reality slaps her smack in the face, it can give some serious wake up calls. As long as she sits home and basks in the benefits of the M...without any responsibilities, effort or work.....she is likely to continue feeding her fantasy and reacting in rebellious behavior. If she loses her home and the luxuries her H provided........and she has her children part time........and she has to work for standard wages........I'd say that could make a dent in her fantasy world. But that's just part of it. There are exceptions, but usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.

[JRuss]

sandi2 -- "when her manipulation loses its power on him" is where I want and need to be. Right now, even a sigh or her looking off into space with an unhappy look is enough to get me muttering "DROP THE ROPE" over and over to myself, because I feel that lurch in my stomach, realize I'm still a strung out addict needing my fix. Yuck.

[RSG]

And what makes her happy, apart from H + kids? Is she doing those things? Is *she* GAL-ing to make herself happy? If she's not working on being healthy, she'll always blame you for making her unhappy.

This speaks to me, I've never really thought about it that way. W said she left because she was unhappy, so I've wanted to see her down in the dumps if you can follow my logic.

She's going to counseling to work on herself, going to church, going to the gym again, expressing herself in ways she felt she couldn't do in the M (new tats, hair coloring, etc), cutting down on drinking and so on. However, she only sees S on Sat along with about an hour after school. She is picking him up tomorrow morning and keeping him until Sunday PM this week, but that's only because she had to work tonight. I don't feel like the Mom in her has fully come back yet, and it is a huge turnoff for me.

[cheesyt]

There are exceptions, but usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.

Sandi2 thank you for this!!!! This speaks to me. As my W's feelings still affect me. I feel I can take the "Bait" especially when W mentions she's sick.

-working on detachment and walking in a different direction.

[ForGump]

Usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.

This sounds very true in many cases. And I do wish very much that this is true in my case.

But, I believe that w/ my W ... she won't feel the loss until she's fully moved on to a life with a series of other men -- i.e., probably several years into the future -- when she realizes that our M wasn't as bad as she thought, that I wasn't such a bad partner as she thought ... and at that point the loss won't feel all that acute for her because it's so far in the past, and it will be far too late for her to come back to the M.

Bleak, but that's what I believe. This belief doesn't make me feel more clingy to her -- in fact, it motivates me to move on.