Very close to giving up

[Jug]

Just how little were you and W face to face before getting M? You said something about long distance dating, and getting M quickly.

Sandi2 - I'm set on initiating financial and physical separation. Any other tips/suggestions? I've definitely let go and am not (as) afraid of it. I'm not looking for any particular outcome but just see that either one will be better than the torture/humiliation I'm going through now.

Don't threaten or say something you can't take back. Some people have the mistaken idea that getting out of the M will end their pain.

How is she reacting to your plans of separating, or have you told her?

We met maybe half a dozen times in person before getting married and each time we stayed together for at least a few days like a vacation.

Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.

What do you think sandi? Thanks again for your participation.

[sandi2]

Well, I don't have a clear enough picture of the MR, yet, other than she's having an EA. You said she absolutely refuses to end contact with the OM? What does she say about the M? Is she saying she will not work to save the M? Has she asked for a D?

Did she actually say she wanted an open M?

Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.

If you do not want to S, or you aren't ready......then don't. How long has your W known that you were aware of the OM/EA?

Tell me more about the MR and the attitude in the home. Before you noticed her being on the phone so much, what was it like when you would get home from work?

Did you see a change in her attitude, around the time she started spending more time on the phone........or has it basically stayed the same since marrying her?

Do you and W come from similar backgrounds? Did each of you have good role models that actually lived in a healthy MR?

You said you both had counseling, but did you seek counseling specifically for the "bad sex" problem? Would she express her feelings toward physical intimacy......or just try to get through the act as quickly as possible, and avoid as much as she could? Has this been the one major obstacle in the relationship, or were there other things (before OM)?

Has she ever told you about any abuse in her childhood, or some tragedy, horrific experience that happened to her?

Sorry for all the questions. I would feel better knowing a little more information about the relationship, before giving specific advice. You may be tired of talking about it, due to your seeking several resources, but don't give up. Stick with us, okay?

[Jug]

Well, I don't have a clear enough picture of the MR, yet, other than she's having an EA. You said she absolutely refuses to end contact with the OM? What does she say about the M? Is she saying she will not work to save the M? Has she asked for a D?

Did she actually say she wanted an open M?

Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.

If you do not want to S, or you aren't ready......then don't. How long has your W known that you were aware of the OM/EA?

Tell me more about the MR and the attitude in the home. Before you noticed her being on the phone so much, what was it like when you would get home from work?

Did you see a change in her attitude, around the time she started spending more time on the phone........or has it basically stayed the same since marrying her?

Do you and W come from similar backgrounds? Did each of you have good role models that actually lived in a healthy MR?

You said you both had counseling, but did you seek counseling specifically for the "bad sex" problem? Would she express her feelings toward physical intimacy......or just try to get through the act as quickly as possible, and avoid as much as she could? Has this been the one major obstacle in the relationship, or were there other things (before OM)?

Has she ever told you about any abuse in her childhood, or some tragedy, horrific experience that happened to her?

Sorry for all the questions. I would feel better knowing a little more information about the relationship, before giving specific advice. You may be tired of talking about it, due to your seeking several resources, but don't give up. Stick with us, okay

So her stance is that she refuses to break contact with the OM as she says that I am "unstable." This is her word for not sleeping and being sad after being told ilybinilwy and also finding out about the A. I didn't yell, hit, or break anything.

She claims that she wants to have a romantic marriage and family with me more than anything but doesn't see that it's possible. She brought up the open M thing. The morning after finding out about the A, I wanted to move on a D and she put the brakes on. It does come up though.

She spent a lot more time on the phone since our son was born as she nursed and had him sleep on her a lot. The dynamic that she says led to this was me getting home from work crabby and only being critical when I spoke to her. Before our son was born, we did more stuff together and talked.

Neither of us have great role models. Both of us have overbearing fathers. I have tried to not be like mine and she has not allowed anyone to treat her in any way like he treats her mom. I don't believe there is a history of abuse other than being overbearing.

Sex was as you described with avoiding and always trying to get it over with. We went to counseling for it years ago and gave up as it was ineffective. Her current therapist is actually a sex therapist. Ww claims that her focus before was on her low drive but realizes now that it was about me and how pushy and not listening I was. It didn't help things but it's hard to say whether it was our major obstacle. It could be argued that it led to my crabbiness and focus on my hobbies. I do own that I wasn't appreciative enough of her. I know that I have a lot of the characteristics that you write about like conflict avoidance and being passive aggressive.

Thank you for your help and I will stick around. I look forward to your guidance!

[Jug]

Oh yeah, she has said that I focus too much on her breaking contact while I should work on just being friendly. It's a bit of an impasse. We have couples mc on Friday. I know that there has been recent communication with OM and it sickens and disheartens me.

[Jug]

Sandi-

I have been aware of the EA for a month now and it has been going on since at least October. Again, it's a long distance thing.

[sandi2]

The LBS does tend to focus on the OP, which is understandable. Here's the thing. The MR can't work as long as she is turning to this OM to fill her emotional needs. The root of the problem was already there before OM entered the picture. Now that there is a 3rd person, it causes another problem in addition to what was already there.

Affairs of any kind are addictive. The only way to break the addiction is to go cold turkey and never contact the OP again. No FB, photos, nothing!

I believe this M can be saved! In spite of the EA, the bad sex, and the overall bad attitude in the MR. It isn't going to be a short fix.....as you probably know by your experiences with counselors. There are some counselors who offer solution solving methods, and then there are counselors who just want you to talk about everything. If you do not have a counselor who works with you to find a method in solving your problems, it's of my opinion to find another one. I also think you can have too many sources giving their advice at one time, b/c it can cause confusion for the LBS.

Unfortunately, MC will not be successful for your W as long as she is in her EA. Even after she cuts all avenues of contact with OM, he will be in her head for an indefinite period of time. If she realizes she has to help herself to get him out of her head, she'll get through the withdrawals faster. This all has to do with her will and determination to be over OM/EA, and to willingly work to save her MR.

So, the EA is a major problem in the MR. From what I have learned, it's really more about how the A makes her feel. In fact, some women will jump from OM#1 to OM#2, and so on. B/c it isn't really that male person she adores, but rather how he makes her feel special.

If she felt that you were constantly critical, negative, grumpy, etc., it could have affected her "in-love" feelings dramatically. There are several possibilities, considering you saw things changing after the baby was born. She could have been depressed, which happens with a lot of women. If she gained weight, stayed in the house too much, withdrew from others......her self esteem could be suffering. Does she have body image issues?

Some of what you say about her, falls within the description of a WW. Waywards are filled with a ton of resentment (from years gone by until the present time). Waywards blame the H for everything that is wrong in her life. Waywards feel a lot of disrespect for the H, and it will show in her attitude, as well as other ways. (Some women are worse than others). Some H's get so accustomed to his W's bad attitude, until I wonder if he realizes all the ways she really is showing him disrespect.

Resentment, bitterness, blaming, throwing tantrums, entitlement, selfishness, escaping from reality into a fantasy world, lying, acting like a teenager, becoming very private about her phone and keeping it with her at all times, becoming more particular in her physical appearance, frequently going out to bar/party with just "her friends", find excuses to spend the night & weekends away from home without her H .....these are possible signs of a wayward wife (and there are more, but these are enough for now). A WW doesn't have to own all these behaviors, but she usually has most of them. Her anger usually leads her to rebel in some form or fashion. Here on the board, we usually see their rebellion in having an affair....or acting like a girl gone wild. One thing for certain.....she's not the girl you married!

I would like to tell some newcomer H's who have a WW that she does not experience fear or guilt in the way some H's want to believe. Not if she is wayward. You see, most H's try to rationalize why his W has turned into this selfish, cold hearted female from hell. But you can't do it. A wayward is not logical. And as for the feelings of guilt or fear.......if there were any......the selfishness that motivates her, would override it. She is going to look out for herself and how she will benefit the most. I think there are a few things that separates her from the WAW & MLC.......and that is she doesn't feel guilt or fear the way H's want to think they do. They aren't living in fear. Not the wayward! Plus, their guilt isn't there b/c they are going to justify their actions. The guilt doesn't really hit them until the period of remorse comes.....after their fantasy collapses and she experiences loss. As long as she is willfully doing what she wants, regardless of who it hurts.....she is not remorseful.

Long post, so I better stop and save for next time.

P.S. For right now, I would avoid talking about your plans with her. Keep a poker face. Don't get into relationship talks with her.

[Jug]

Thanks so much sandi! That is the most encouraging thing I've seen today! Is it worth addressing breaking contact with the OM at mc tomorrow? Any other thoughts for what to say there and strategies for breaking contact?

Some things to consider: even before all of this, Ww has been one of the most stubborn people.

Her ic who she likes and respects told her last weekend that she needs to find herself, preferably with me.

[Jug]

She doesn't have body issues any more than the typical woman. She didn't put on weight after pregnancy and has always been (truly objectively) very beautiful and trim. She has however started to exercise like crazy and is more fit. She can check off almost all of the boxes for signs of a Ww.

[ForGump]

She has however started to exercise like crazy and is more fit.

That's my W!!!

[ForGump]

...after their fantasy collapses and she experiences loss.

Sandi2--

There must be many different ways that WW's are awakened from their fantasies, and much depends on individual situations and *personalities* of the WW's.

What are some of the ways that you've seen WW's wake up? When they're rejected by OM's? (But some keep seeking more/other OM's...?) In particular, I'm wondering if WW's wake up from practical/economic results of divorce or separation. For example, if a SAHM realizes she needs to work 40 hrs at a menial job after a D ... could that wake her up? It seems many WW's -- since they are primarily driven by emotions/immaturity -- practical consequences just aren't going to wake them up?

I realize there are no concrete rules... just wanting to hear thoughts/opinions.