Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 2)

[JRuss]

doodler -- pursuit was a big issue for me. I only came here after over a year of self-improvement attempts, some of them pretty successful in isolation, that didn't work, at all, because I now know I was doing everything with an eye on W to see if any of it was working (even asking her at times if she'd noticed -- good grief), so DBing is still pretty new to me.

Big 180s for me have included not talking about the R, at all. Not asking for or trying to get reassurances. Trying to move away from the sack that followed my W around, being clingy, to having my own life (GALing). Inside my head I still am too results oriented, I know, but I've pretty much tamped out the overt smothering stuff I was doing.

W has always been a little vague about what our problems really are, and even my role in them. What I've been able to glean is that she didn't feel supported at home or career-wise after our second child was born, that she couldn't talk to me about our problems or even just those she had in general (I didn't listen and validate and either got angry or tried to fix things), that I didn't manage my stress well and made everyone else feel it, too, that I didn't have my own identity, didn't bring fun/joy into our life, that we didn't have that much in common . . .

Well, actually, rereading that, it's kind of a lot. Anyway, I've taught myself to be a good listener (IC and self-help, primarily), whether she admits it or not. I've done everything I know to do to support her in her new, much harder/demanding job. I'm GALing religiously. I've taken an active role in arranging family and just-me-and kids hikes, trips, and outings (more joy/fun), I'm volunteering again, I am going to audit a class at the local college this fall, I'm reading more, I meditate every day.

I saw all of these as 180s, since I admittedly had gotten in a major rut and stopped living my own life, had gotten not exactly "fat" but pretty jiggly and out of shape, and, as I gradually became aware of our problems, very clingy/desperate around my W. However, she sees it as "tweaks" in the most charitable light, and as transparent, even still-smothering, faux changes I'm just making to pull her back.

Working with my IC, we've figured out that, completely unbeknownst to me, I have mild to moderate depression that manifested itself way back in my early 20s. I self-medicated for years (marijuana -- surprisingly effective), and it was when I was still a stoner that my wife and I first met. So outwardly a pretty happy, fun guy. As I grew up and started a family, I stopped self-medicating, and, gradually, a pretty not-fun, low energy, temperamental/moody guy took his place. I get that that guy wasn't attractive at all, but I'm not that guy any longer. But W doesn't see the me that's in front of her now, just the ghost of this guy she fell out of love with.

Sorry to ramble -- it somehow really helps to write this stuff out, even if it's all over the place.

[EDF]

It is so discouraging knowing that the hundreds of hours of meditation, IC, getting fit, teaching myself how to listen, completely eradicating my temper from our lives for at least the last year -- addressing and changing everything I've been told was part of the problem -- all just amount to "tweaks" in her mind.

Don't forget the "believe nothing they say" rule! WW's are not in a stable place emotionally or mentally, and logic does not rule in that house. That does not only apply to what they say to you, but also to what they say to other people!

Your WW might truly believe it or might not. She might believe it some times and then change her mind. She might believe it now but not believe it next week/month/year. She might say things to garner support, to hear someone reaffirm to her that her craziness is "doing the right thing", to avoid confronting reality, or purely for a sake of continuity. Who knows?!

When a rebellious teenager shouts they hate their parents and will always hate them, do we take it at face value?

I know it doesn't stop it from stinging, but if there is one thing I am really certain of from my own sitch it's that what my WW said to me and other people really was all over the place. I had gained access to her emails and texts and saw exactly how she described things to various people, and she would privately describe the exact same event half a dozen different ways to different people! One person she might gush about having a great weekend with me. Another person she would tell about her fun weekend but completely omit that I was there. Someone else she would just complain about some random thing I did "wrong". Another person she might say her weekend was "just ok."

Just keep that in mind when they say stuff that hurts.

[JRuss]

Thanks, EDF. With these two friends, in particular, I almost get the sense sometimes that she likes the figure she cuts with them: long-aggrieved, but nobly suffering in silence tragic figure turned Woman Who's Doing Something About It (but still doing what won't screw up the kids).

Only she rarely speaks about the kids in this. She points to one of these two friend's own experience, where she and her XH co-parent well and without animus, with kids who don't seem too screwed up, as all the evidence necessary to show that our kids' experience will be the same. This just drives me nuts and gets me into a self-righteous fury. All of the data say even an unhappy but quiet/calm marriage is better for kids than a "happy" divorce, but, hey, there's this one friend who's done it, or so that friend says. But I'm the clingy one, trying to keep things together.

[mvgfwd2]

Yes, beware of the "friends" who are divorced or cheaters. They will paint a rosy picture. Mostly, to make themselves feel better about the horrible decision they made but also to get acceptance from others. Misery loves company. None of it real but a WW will have blinders to the real story.

[ForGump]

"I love him, just not the way a wife is supposed to love her husband".

My W said essentially the same thing. I strongly question this concept though. How *are* long term couples supposed to love each other? Are you supposed to feel the giddy infatuation after years of negotiating parenting, house chores, finances, etc.? No, I think a healthy partner feels a deeper sense of attraction based on a loving, trusting relationship. So I think your W might be misguided in looking for excitement in your relationship. She is obviously attracted to you enough to have meaningless sex once a week. She needs to build on that, rather than look elsewhere for exciting romance.

I'm not saying this because it changes what you ought to do. But I don't think she ought to get a free pass on this issue. And you ought not beat yourself up 100% over this. I'm sure there are things you could've done many years ago to be a more romantic partner, but she bears some responsibility for her view of marriage. If she keeps this view, then odds are, her next marriage (should there be one) will likely wind up at the same place.

[ForGump]

p.s. I would dare guess -- as with my W -- that all kinds of other dissatisfaction/unhappiness in her life stokes her need to find excitement in her love life. She has a big hole in her heart from all the unhappiness, and if you guys divorce, she might that hole temporarily fogged up by new romance and sex, but the hole will still be there and she'll return to feeling the way she did. This might take years, and sadly she'll leave a broken family in her wake.

[ForGump]

Echo chamber...

Yep, some so-called-friends are toxic. They're not interested in your W's welfare as much as validating their own sh!tty choices in life. For every person who has voiced something about our situation, I question what their motivation is, where they are coming from, what feeling they hope to get out of the conversation.

[albac]

Totally agree with that Gump, and In cases like mine where my W got close with new friends after starting a new job meant these people she is getting advice from have never met me! So it's easy for them to throw me under the bus.

[ForGump]

W has always been a little vague about what our problems really are, and even my role in them. What I've been able to glean is that ... Well, actually, rereading that, it's kind of a lot.

That could seem like a lot... but you have to also list the good qualities you've manifested all these years to have a balanced view. I'm sure you've also done many things right during those times. And it's on *both* of you -- not just you alone -- that her feelings have somehow drifted to where they are. Both of you should have taken care of your marriage actively so your feelings don't drift that far from a healthy place.

Everything I say above applies to me too. It takes two to tango.

[ForGump]

I was doing everything with an eye on W to see if any of it was working...

This is the paradox I wrestle with constantly. Even coming on to this website ... feels like it puts me into a "how can I fix it?" frame of mind. If we're to have any chance -- and there is very little chance -- we have to completely let our W's go. But how can you honestly let something go knowing that your motivation for letting go is to keep it?