Being good at disagreement

[JujuB]

Im not sure if I should still be posting in Newcomers. I have been posting on these boards for close to one year, and have no hope for reconciliation. But divorce process is only just starting, so maybe this will be my last thread on here. Thank you for all those that follow and respond. I am always amazed at how similar our experiences and feelings are and I am always greatful for the support and advice.

My recent thoughts have been a big jumble. Poorly organized and all over the place. Kind of like my emotions. But the central theme of these thoughts revolves around what makes a marriage last and why didn't mine? Abuse? Control? Finances? Sex? Kid?

There was an article someone recently posted on facebook that basically said that with marriage we are definitively doomed to a certain degree and variety of suffering, depending upon which partner we pick. I accept that and this is not a new concept to me, just humorous. "Hell is other people" right?

I always thought that a successful marriage would be based on a partner with a similar level of committment. And maybe that would make a marriage last but not necessarily be successful. But commitment level is impossible to predict. People can rationalize anything. Then I thought maybe a compatibility issue...but not true either. That's supposed to be achieved.

The article was actually hopeful though by expressing in order to have a successful marriage, our best chance is by choosing a partner that "can negotiate differences" someone that is "good at disagreement".

This makes sense to me.

I am always thrown off by the comment "work on yourself".

But really, in order to be a good partner I believe I need to learn to be better at negotiating differences and then perhaps it will be easier to recognize a future partner that can do the same. It's easy to respectfully debate or discuss when there is no emotional investment, however challenging when there are hurt feelings and egos. So this will be a huge challenge for me in the near future with upcoming legal process.

obviously more to it..but post is getting long.

[Painter]

Maybe also finding someone who has a similary *style* of negotiating differences. I remember saying to my H before we got married that 'if we run into problems down the road, I think it will be due to you not standing up for yourself'. And that is exactly what happened.

His way of resolving differences is to pretend nothing is wrong. Mine is to have a detached, unemotional discussion. (OW is also great at pretending, it seems - to the degree that H is 'disturbed' by it. The rug in the middle of that living room must be bulging! But that was what he wanted now, so that's what he got.)

I could probably have been less gullible when I married H. I should have been able to predict that someone who is getting married for the 5th time, is not great at committment.

I hope you don't stop posting!

[JujuB]

Hi painter, I just meant stop posting on newcomers and maybe join JKSD. I really find peace with the interactive journaling. It is hard for me to read some of the newer posts. I relive those feelings when I read some of it. I also don't believe in forgiving infidelity in 99.5 % of the cases, so im not much help with advise.

I have been having a really hard time reading accounts from male posters who are so forgiving and supportive of their wives who have Betrayed them in some of the worst ways. I can't help but think, " what was really so bad about me, that my husband left ? " I have my issues, but in all honesty nothing that warranted a divorce and abandonment the way that STBX did it. I mean come on...to walk away the way he did is Jerry Spinger material. There's a lot of indication of infidelity. It's hard to come to terms that it's my life!

Regarding communication, I needed someone to communicate with me directly and honestly. I needed to voice my complaints in a different way, that was less critical and perhaps not emotionally charged. We needed to work together as a team unit.

[JujuB]

GRL

I agree with you. Someone that understands marriage and children require work. Someone that can accept disagreement. Someone always willing to learn and try?

No one is forced to marry and have children. And for those who make that choice, you do have to give up some form of independence and individualism. Your behaviors, your time, your finances...they have to be sacrificed for the family unit. And that's a lot to sacrifice. No question.

I like what that sacrifice has the potential to bring though. And I still have hope and the belief that it's possible to share your life with someone into old age. Although probably more difficult second time around.

I think it's pretty irresponsible to make that choice and then decide midway through that "nope it's not for me" and villify and lie about someone to justify that decision. I think that was the hardest part for me... Being villified and blamed.

My husband has been telling people that I pushed him out. That he tried.
Now obviously I wouldn't date someone that cheated or abandoned his family. But What if I meet someone that tells me his wife left him? How can I trust that he is different from my husband? Maybe he is in a weird self denial too!

[Painter]

GRL

I agree with you. Someone that understands marriage and children require work. Someone that can accept disagreement. Someone always willing to learn and try?

No one is forced to marry and have children. And for those who make that choice, you do have to give up some form of independence and individualism. Your behaviors, your time, your finances...they have to be sacrificed for the family unit. And that's a lot to sacrifice. No question.

I like what that sacrifice has the potential to bring though. And I still have hope and the belief that it's possible to share your life with someone into old age. Although probably more difficult second time around.

I think it's pretty irresponsible to make that choice and then decide midway through that "nope it's not for me" and villify and lie about someone to justify that decision. I think that was the hardest part for me... Being villified and blamed.

My husband has been telling people that I pushed him out. That he tried.
Now obviously I wouldn't date someone that cheated or abandoned his family. But What if I meet someone that tells me his wife left him? How can I trust that he is different from my husband? Maybe he is in a weird self denial too!

I really like this post. I really, really like the way you formulate this so succinctly.

[mustardseed]

Juju I am having a lot of the same thoughts as you. I have met a number of divorced men this passed year and all of them claim their wives ended it. After some discussion with one of these men I came to find that he was checked out of the marriage for a long time and the first time she mentioned D he took it and ran with it. He really thinks he's the good guy in all of this because evident cheat and stuck around even though he hated her and only stayed for their kid. But then he bragged about getting a girlfriend the next day. That disgusted me. Especially the pride he took in how he handled things. Really has no idea that he played a part. He got mad when I told him that I imagine my exes story probably doesn't sound much different than his

The other stories I've heard the men seemed as blindsided as me. There was an om that one wife had to pursue that ended up falling apart after a few years. It took about 5 years and a disastrous rebound relationship for him to finally get to the place where he can have a respectful coparenting relationship with her and now they speak well of each other but happy with their d.

Then there is a young newlywed couple where the wife seemed overwhelmed with the reality of married adult life and pulled the rug out from under him while he was focused on building that life. He is still angry but he hasn't been out of it for very long.

There are lots of stories and it is interesting to hear the male perspective. I'm definitely not ready to trust yet. I have to learn to trust myself first. But I like to investigate and it is nice to have companionship. Not wanting to fall in love or become committed to someone has made dating a lot more fun.

I know you aren't ready yet, but when you are remember there are lots of different reasons to date, and falling in love does not have to be one of them.

[JujuB]

Hearing these stories interests me. I feel like there is just such a small pool of men out there. Single, childless men have no idea of the hardships that come with marriage. They will have less invested, so even more of a chance that they will walk out down the road. Even less of a chance that they would even invest in a woman with a kid. A lot of divorced men are most likely going to be like my husband or the man you described in your first paragraph. And if their wives did actually leave them I suspect they will be more bitter and have limited capacity or desire to commit and trust again.

This is me and all of the negative talk that I am supposed to be staying away from. But can anyone really argue the reality of it?

I never really dated much so the concept of dating for companionship is foreign to me. In my mind, I will always be screening for committment. (Which I know is most men's fear) I come across as easy going and light but that's more of a mask.

Maybe just being a carefree, single mom can be fun. It's just me and son. We can pick up and travel, move around easily etc. But That life is also foreign to me. I grew up in a world that is structured around the stability of a family unit. I'm completely thrown off by this type of abandonment. And feel robbed.

I know I have to appreciate what I do have, but sometimes I have trouble.

[JujuB]

I have been having a lot of trouble reading the stories on these boards. The betrayal, and deceit, and entitlement and selfishness really disturbs me. I am coming on less and less.

Here is my honest thoughts about being the light house... I am not a f' ing innanimate object. I am a person with feelings. Someone that is capable of breaking vows, and lying, and cheating, and hoarding money should have consequences. Not someone waiting patiently on the sides for them to come around and see the light.

Love for children is unconditional. Love for your partner is not. I am not articulate enough to express why.

My husband had a different set of conditions then I did. Mine were spelled out. His were not.

[rich4j]

I am in the final phases of a divorce and was the recipient of the divorce :-) ...after about 11 years and a young daughter.

Surprised? yes/no. We had issues

But for the theme of this post, I totally agree being good at disagreement but also the poorly over used term of communication and the style of communication. My STBX was a bully and has the "not my fault" syndrome. Not just with me but all her interactions. The world is at fault for all her problems.

So we were not good at disagreement. Because it would be me just burying my feelings, resenting her more.....detaching more...and dissapearing more becuz it was useless. Her on the other hand maybe just needed someone stronger so they could stand up to her bullying when there was a disagreement and maybe that would work for her. Not me....

Communication in terms of being able to be open and honest of what you need and what is missing and just "what" with the other person able to accept it and not be defensive is another thing you have to be good at together...which is hard.

I too cringe about all the new stories I read.they are sad...have similar themes...

I still think that marriage is a super tough road to go down and that its too easy to get married and divorced :-) Too many "channels" of media , both TV , social and the like have killed the instituation of marriage IMHO. Its not a fantasyland where passion is there every day, every year etc....you need to work at it and you may fall in and out of love at adifferent times. But you loved enough hopefully to make the vow and I am big at commitment. Also understand if you are miserable then it is no way to live life. But you need to discuss communicate, be open and vulnerable, and give it your all without giving up. And if all fails, amicably and lovingly walk away but cheating to me is inexcusable and for the weak minded. Its an excuse...

[mustardseed]

I have been having a lot of trouble reading the stories on these boards. The betrayal, and deceit, and entitlement and selfishness really disturbs me. I am coming on less and less.

Here is my honest thoughts about being the light house... I am not a f' ing innanimate object. I am a person with feelings. Someone that is capable of breaking vows, and lying, and cheating, and hoarding money should have consequences. Not someone waiting patiently on the sides for them to come around and see the light.

Love for children is unconditional. Love for your partner is not. I am not articulate enough to express why.

My husband had a different set of conditions then I did. Mine were spelled out. His were not.

I relate to what you are saying. I don't read much about the stories where people are still trying to DB because I can't bring myself back there. There is no way in hell I ever want to be a lighthouse for him or anyone (except my kids) ever again and my advice to someone these days would be quite the opposite from what I wanted to believe was possible 2 years ago. I know that it works for some people, but you have to have a partner that knows how to commit in the first place. Not someone who thrives on playing head games and compartmentalizing each piece of his or her life. I hate the message that we have to deny our emotions and suck it up.

I feel there is a big message around (not so much on the boards but everywhere) that if we have an emotional attachment to our ex then we are clingy and pathetic. Like a 15 year marriage is supposed to leave no residual side effects. It has been a year since I had to leave and I should be over it--even before the D is final. I should be accepting of OW and not have an opinion about the tacky things she does that makes my life uncomfortable. But I do have an opinion--and that doesn't mean I am controlling. And I spent 15 years sacrificing my needs and wants to make his life comfortable, I don't have to do that anymore. And choosing not to be complacent in all this does not make me "vindictive" or "hung up on him" as he wants everyone to believe.

There is still pain. And that pain does not mean that I want that crazy man back in my life. It doesn't mean that I am clingy or in denial or trying to control what he does. It means that I am human and believed we had something meaningful. I believed we had something that was worth sacrifice on my part. And I am angry about being deceived and grieving the loss of what I thought I had.

I believed he was all in. I believed he meant the vows that we took. It is easy to make the vows when you are in the heights of romance, but those vows aren't meant for the good times, they are meant for when things aren't going well. I know there are men out there who believe in those vows. Most of them are married. But some of them were just as blindsided as we were. I'm not quite sure how to tell the difference just yet, but I think at our age it must be easier because they have enough history behind them to help with the information gathering. When we were in our 20s all we could go on was promises--and without quite understanding what challenges were ahead it was easy to put all of our faith in those promises.

I don't know if I want that kind of commitment ever again. But I do believe it is out there.

I know my H did not live up to the ideals he had for what kind of H he wanted to be, and I didn't live up to my ideals on the kind of wife I wanted to be either. But I didn't expect us to be perfect. I just expected us to never give up. To always try. To continue to work together. And that is where I was let down. He wanted perfection. I wanted partnership. Neither of us could deliver. If I do decide to get married again, it would be with someone who shows up no matter what. Not someone who wants to be the hero, or the easy going good guy. someone who can disagree with me without walking out or throwing bombs of insults. Someone who can be happy to share an experience with me even if it isn't something he enjoys without pouting or expecting a parade of honor for his sacrifice. Someone who can make mistakes and own up to it when it happens. And someone who doesn't dismiss me when I do the same. And can honestly talk to me about things I might do that upsets him.

If that person doesn't exist that I am fine being single for the rest of my life.