3 Months since she said i dont love you (3)

[doodler]

I think that for Eid that it would require a death-certificate and pictures of the corpse to get out of a lot of the family obligations that go around that holiday. It varies from family to family I'm sure and not being a follower of the Prophet myself I'm only seeing it from the outside.

AndrewP,

It sounds a lot like Christmas.

[Natus]

Present day - W trying NC OM. Still WW/WAW.

What is meant by "W trying NC OM"? Is she trying to not contact the OM, or is she trying to work on the MR?

The other thing is shes never said she wants to work at our marriage, infact she has said the opposite. So that plays on my mind abit.

I dont actually know if she wants to spend time with me or just feels its the right thing to do. We have not had any alone time, always with Son or family so its never been about us.

Well, I suppose that answers my questions.

I shud probably update my sig by now. She has gone NC, she was doing well the week leading up to the job move, im guessing things fizzled out a little bit and i know OM was pissing her off because lack of leadership ability at the office. He lets other staff get away with insubordination. All this while its the W who has carried the branch. I am digressing though.

Since job move. Exactly 1 week. She has no contact whatsoever with OM. However still early days. its only been a week.

I have to come to terms that she doesnt want me as her husband.

Well she talks about leaving and having no feelings for me. She makes family plans with me, asks me to accompany her to appointments and stuff, shopping and dinning together.

If you've come to terms, what's the problem in doing just what you want to do and not worry about what she says?

I havnt come to terms yet. Im trying too. I try to and then she pulls me back in. For instance she asked for no physical touch and practically told me she wants to leave. So i go dark, two days later she kisses me.

I admit, its probably weakness on my part letting her pull me back in.

Right now i have to decide which way im going to go tomorrow. a) suck it up and do the family thing b) tell her i cant do it. She can tell her mum and rest of her family members why i am not there.

First one sounds like me. I'd endure stoically. The latter feels weak but hey next year we might not be together anyway so what difference will it make.

Actually, the first sounds like you b/c you are trained to suck it up and do whatever your W tells you. That's a nice-guy type of H. And, it is not the one that will make you look strong. You tell yourself it is strong, maybe to ease your own emotions, but you are resentful inside. It is much harder for you to do the second one, and even harder if you don't tell her some b.s. excuse about having something to do, and just tell her you aren't interested in going on a vacation with a woman who doesn't want to be your W. That takes bigger b@lls.

You see, you can decide if you want to take the soft route or the tough route......and it will solve having to make these individual panic type decisions. Instead of you saying, "I feel like telling her.......", you just refer back to which route is on your map. The first is simple. You just serve up cake for her and do whatever she says, and try to keep her in a good mood, and walk on eggshells. But wait......isn't that what you've previously done? The second is rather simple, too. Instead of thinking what you'd like to tell her.......you just tell her, and go on about your life. She caused this mess. Now, she has to put on her big girl panties and clean it up!

Telling her to stuff it for EID is major. This would be an ultimatum move. While i flirt with the idea im probably not ready yet or maybe i am but afraid to pull the trigger.

Shes changed job, 1 week now. Shes done everything i ask except for change her feelings for me for the better.

I am going to however go work on my plan. I agree i've been pretty much winging it.

[Natus]

I think that for Eid that it would require a death-certificate and pictures of the corpse to get out of a lot of the family obligations that go around that holiday. It varies from family to family I'm sure and not being a follower of the Prophet myself I'm only seeing it from the outside.

AndrewP,

It sounds a lot like Christmas.

If christmas you had to go to each of your relatives houses (both sides) one by one.

[Natus]

When did you guys decide to go hard/tough route?

I was tough on the EA and OM but soft on everything else. Now that shes changed job and NC with OM i am not sure what my plan is.

What she says:
She says she wants to leave, asked for mc only later to admit to see if we can break up amicably then says shes grey about it as in who knows what will happen.

What she does:
Changed jobs
NC with OM
Makes me coffee and breakfast.
Transparent. Comes home on-time or tells me if she is going to be late.
Includes me in her plans except if its girls night which is very not often.
Offered to go halfsies on fixing my car.

=============================================================

What do you guys see?

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

[Tofbrks]

When did you guys decide to go hard/tough route?

I was tough on the EA and OM but soft on everything else. Now that shes changed job and NC with OM i am not sure what my plan is.

What she says:
She says she wants to leave, asked for mc only later to admit to see if we can break up amicably then says shes grey about it as in who knows what will happen.

What she does:
Changed jobs
NC with OM
Makes me coffee and breakfast.
Transparent. Comes home on-time or tells me if she is going to be late.
Includes me in her plans except if its girls night which is very not often.
Offered to go halfsies on fixing my car.

=============================================================

What do you guys see?

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Is it really nc with om?
Sounds like a roommate , things that a roommate would be considerate enough to do.
Little cake eating if your available for these activities when she wants you there.

Jmho but anger can be good when channeled correctly.

[AndrewP]

Natus - I think you're doing great. Even though I've walked a different path I think we are in a similar crossroad at present.

In my case my WW still hasn't told me that her A is over - she actually has rarely talked to me about emotional issues over the 27 years that we've been married so I only have speculation to go on. She is also an intensely private person even with me which has certainly made being married to her difficult for all these years.

After I presumed the A was over though, like your W, mine would go on and on about leaving and how she had such great support from friends etc but she wouldn't actually DO anything. I have no idea why that would be but perhaps it's part of what I think of as a disconnect between the fairy-tale land she's been living in and "Realsville". Perhaps Scheherazade is believing her own stories ;-) Personally I found it very draining and frustrating.

So - in an attempt to take control of the agenda I had a preliminary meeting with a L (which she discovered when looking at our bank account) which put a bit of a scare into her that I was getting serious. Her noticing that prompted me to give her a letter that I had been sweating blood over for several weeks that I had been delaying giving to her for fear of what it could trigger. In it I spend 90% of it telling her how much I loved her and how much her behaviour had hurt me but that I had stood by her regardless. I asked her to reconcile and work with me to build a new MR. I also had one sentence in there where I said that if she did not want to reconcile or could not decide in a "reasonable time" - maybe should have had an actual date on there - that I would act to end the marriage.

After she read the letter she asked to be able to think about it and since then (2 weeks now) has not talked about leaving. Mind you, she hasn't talked about staying either. This was a major shift because the night before she had gone on in great detail about the fact that she was definitely leaving. In the mean-time I've been accumulating the forms and documentation needed for a divorce so that I can pull that trigger if I need to. One big thing that that letter has done for "me" is to make me feel like I have more control over the agenda which it sounds like you are feeling frustrated with as well. For me, I was emotionally unable to go the "tough" ultimatum route that many people suggested to me but I feel that what I did has set a firm direction. You could call what I did an ultimatum but I feel that it was delivered in a loving, caring way and W certainly has paid attention to it.

[Coconut]

Natus,

Go back and read the lighthouse story, that is really what you need to be doing right now. Your W is going to grieve over the OM, now is not the time to pressure or persue her, give her space. You stand tall, confident, happy, and show that things are good on your side of the M, let her want to be on your side of the M. I wouldn't talk about or go to MC until she has expressed remorse and the desire to work on the MR.

Don't isolate her, if you are doing something invite her, but don't pressure her to go, just let her know she is welcome to join. If she makes you breakfast, thank her and enjoy. If your making breakfast and she is around, ask her if she would like you to make her some.

You don't want to isolate her right now, you want to be supportive but only when she comes to you for support, let her initiate conversations (unless you are just saying hello, goodbye, etc.), and when she initiates conversation talk to her, validate, no pressure.

[sandi2]

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop? Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

[Natus]

[quote]Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.
</quote>

Lately i have been avoiding confict except for anything to do with OM or any wayward behaviour, that is a line that i have clearly drawn and have zero tolerance for.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".
</quote>

I admit i tend to self-sacrifice alot and not just for her but for my work, sports team, family, her family etc. Despite that i am considered a hard man, go figure. I adopted her sisters son and gave her sister (ex-con ex-drug addict) a job and yet im the self righteous one.

[quote=sandi2]
Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.
</quote>

This is an area i need to work on hard. Not so much on the agreeing part but being defensive and explaining myself.

[quote=sandi2]
Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).
</quote>

So far this hasnt been an issue. Her actions towards me are nice sprinkled in with some distance every now and then.

She does call me "daddy" instead "darling".

[quote=sandi2]
Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.
</quote>
She tends to look to me to lead. This part not so much an issue. Im more struggling with how to strike a balance. Lead without seeming like its about me or my way all the time.

[quote=sandi2]
Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.
</quote>

Her behaviour has been nice and i am nice in turn. Im also nice when she is being distant.

She knows i wont settle for friendship. I have made that abundantly clear.

[quote=sandi2]
Are you ready for me to stop? Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

No dont stop these are all great points and allows me to compare where i am at in my sich.

I think i am a NG, i dont know if the W does.

Sandhi, what do you think at this stage if i be more assertive, flirty, alpha male, pursue? past few weeks i've been trying to give her some space.

[Natus]

bugger. screwed up the format. let me try again.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Lately i have been avoiding confict except for anything to do with OM or any wayward behaviour, that is a line that i have clearly drawn and have zero tolerance for.

I admit i tend to self-sacrifice alot and not just for her but for my work, sports team, family, her family etc. Despite that i am considered a hard man, go figure. I adopted her sisters son and gave her sister (ex-con ex-drug addict) a job and yet im the self righteous one.

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

This is an area i need to work on hard. Not so much on the agreeing part but being defensive and explaining myself.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

So far this hasnt been an issue. Her actions towards me are nice sprinkled in with some distance every now and then.

She does call me "daddy" instead "darling".

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

She tends to look to me to lead. This part not so much an issue. Im more struggling with how to strike a balance. Lead without seeming like its about me or my way all the time.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Her behaviour has been nice and i am nice in turn. Im also nice when she is being distant.

She knows i wont settle for friendship. I have made that abundantly clear.

Are you ready for me to stop? smile Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

No dont stop smile these are all great points and allows me to compare where i am at in my sich.

I think i am a NG, i dont know if the W does.

Sandhi, what do you think at this stage if i be more assertive, flirty, alpha male, pursue? past few weeks i've been trying to give her some space.