What should I be Doing (piecing 6)

[cbtdad]

Good move Cnut!
Well done

[betterm]

Sounds lik you handled the situation like a pro! Well done Cnut! Keep us posted on how things go down for the after party (your friends)... Happy 4th!

[Coconut]

Ok, so the party was fun, it was at a friends house that I really haven't seen much in the last 8 yrs (other than a night out with gang last weekend). There were a few of my old friends there and new people who had joined the crew (including spouses and kids), so it was a lot of fun to catch up, meet new people and at times really felt like old times.

My W ended up not going, she was exhausted from the parade and the barbecue, so I ended up leaving the party earlier than I would have (stayed about 4 hrs), and went home to hang out with W and S.

I told my W last night that I would like to tell each other 1 thing that we like about how things are going now.

I told W that it really means a lot to me how engaged she is with me, how she texts me to say hello when I'm out and about (or she is) and that I really enjoy taking time to talk to each other without distraction as often as we are (not R talk, just talk).

She replied that she really enjoys that too, and that she really likes that I'm more in control of my emotions. She doesn't feel like I'm going to explode if I hear or see something that I don't like, and that it really makes it easier for her to share with me and feel more comfortable having difficult talks.

I saw her response as a positive. I have really been trying to look inwards for my own happiness, and I do find that external news (good or bad) has had a lot less impact on my emotional state.

[sandi2]

Did you read my last post? You were in a hurry when you gave an update about the party, so IDK if you saw it.

[Coconut]

I think it would be a mistake to tell her you won't have any part of the FF social activities, when she's made it abundantly clear how important FF is to her. Are you wanting to punish her? That is the way it looks, from the outside. When you are trying to piece the M back together, you need to show each other support.

It wasn't about punishing her, I felt like it was a compromise to myself, I gave into her staying so I felt like supporting mandatory activities but not participating in "extra curricular" activities allowed me to support her but not have to be "happy about it". I now see the flaw in that thinking, I determine my boundaries and consequences, and if she doesn't cross my boundary (which I withdrew) then I need to support her as her H.

The more you exclude yourself, the more she is seen as a single woman, and the more she will continue going out without inviting her H.

Wonka's statement that I should go and claim her as my W, and what you say here resonated with me. I did enjoy the other times that I was at the station and around the other firefighters, I have gotten to know a few of the firefighters and I want to get to know the rest, make sure they know who I am and who I'm with.. I was allowing my pride to dictate my actions.

After all that has taken place, you can attend the parade and the FF barbecue. I think it will show her support. Your attendance there makes a statement that you are a couple, and you have not broken up. Don't smother her at the barbecue or try to put on a show of PDA, but do stand by her, socialize, and let her introduce you around. Be sure your male confidence is high on the chart.

I did attend, I did support her, statement made ... I know better than to try and "claim her" by forcing PDA in a situation like the barbecue, but with that said, she would grab my hand as we walked around, came over to me a few times for a hug or wrapped her arms around me while standing around chatting with others. My male confidence was off the chart, I can hold my own in conversations with the FF's and I was very engaged with the joking and bantering going on..

Not attending her graduation is just plain mean, IMO. She has worked really hard and she is proud of her acomplishment. Not attending will really hurt your MR. It is the OM you want to hurt, so don't take it out on her.

Not going was never a plan, it was an "option" as I considered how I wanted to handle the fact that she was continuing the with the academy (thus contact with OM), not going to graduation was just part of the thought of not supporting it at all, and then the other extreme was to fully support her firefighting(which is what I've decided to do).

And one more thought on this..........it would be a really bad move, and then tell her you are going to become a FF, too. (Which, I don't think your heart is in the job, or even if it's a good idea since you already have day jobs together). Don't you think it's more just you wanting to be wherever she is b/c of the whole A Issue?

um, I can't really answer that Sandi2. I first mentioned it before I knew anything about an A, but I think it was prompted by feeling like I was losing her and wanting to do it with her. Later, the idea of joining was definitely spearheaded by being able to keep an eye on things. But if this is really something she is passionate about, and want's to do for a long time, I really think it is something that could bond us. It's no good if we are planning on going out to dinner, or at dinner, and she gets a call and has to leave me and go on call. But if we are both going, both serving our city and doing something we enjoy (I do think I'd enjoy it after seeing everything I have) together, it seems like it could be a good thing. But I don't need to decide now, it's a long way away.

There is that thing in you that wants to punish her, and I think it gets in the way of you making right decisions. I want to make a statement about where you are on the DB path. If you are piecing, you don't necessarily apply the same actions you were doing when she was in the A and the M was breaking apart. Do you see what I mean?
For example, not initiating contacts might not work well if you are in the piecing stage. Not initiating or joining into conversations, and not engaging into activities with her......would not be recommended piecing tools.

Not going to lie, it was hard to transition back into being open to communication (both starting and responding) when we started piecing.. I mean the hurt was still there, we still weren't "Happy" together, and it took me so long to detach just a little that I was hesitant to revert back being supportive and open. I do see what you mean and I am (and have been) there, I am not stand offish, I am not just cordial but engaging, I don't try and limit communication.

I will even go as far to say that if you do not fully understand the mental attitude of detaching.........then, it probably makes you appear cold, withdrawn, moody, angry, sullen, and other negative traits you don't want showing when you are piecing.

I am no pro, not going to say I'm detached, or even close... I will say that my attempts at detaching have nothing to do with her, I do not change the way I act with her, I simply feel myself processing information differently. I no longer have this uncontrollable urge to "discuss" my feelings to something that happens, I can just keep going in the present. That's not to say I wont discuss it later if I feel it warrants it, I'm just saying that I don't feel controlled by things I see anymore.

I think you said something, a few pages ago, about needing to work on your detaching and you were going to do something (can't remember what) to physically detach that day. Considering your previous issues that helped to the breakdown of the MR, I don't know that you should be trying to physically detach. Sure, you need to still GAL and give her some breathing space. You don't want to turn into a clingy H. I believe you can learn to mentally/emotionally detach from things that start working on you and gets your anger stirred up. And, it would help in not wildly swinging from one side of the road to the other.

Without going back and reading, I think I mentioned physically detaching twice... once when I had decided I wasn't going to initiate snuggling one night because I didn't want it to be the only way I could fall asleep, and another night when I had GAL plans and she ended up being available, but I went anyway. But in general, I am not trying to avoid or physically detach from her, I actually enjoy the time we are spending together, which is much more time than we used to.

I would like to stress that I do not smother her and never really had, only time was during the 1 month after the ILYBNILWY speech, before I knew of A. But with that said, I do take a moment occasionally to hug, touch, or something when I happen to be near her (or passing her). When that happens I make sure to take a moment to connect with her (look deep in her eyes, hold hug just a few seconds longer, whisper how beautiful she is, etc.) and make sure she knows its not just obligatory, but real.

You need something, like a boxing bag, to wham every day. Maybe it would help relieve some anger. The transition from the place of the H who has a W in an A.......to piecing the marriage back together, must be difficult. She is still in the place where she needs to be transparent. I think the way you communicate your need for her transparency should be in such a way it doesn't sound like a sentencing for her.

Anyway, we can talk more along these lines later. Hope you have a great holiday.

We do have a punching bag at the house (for my son to practice karate) and I do hit it every now and then to release some (rage related)stress, and I also enjoy meditation which I think is actually more effective at releasing stress (non rage related). But I haven't had much stress or anger in the last week (since she wrote me the letter).

I'm in a good place.

[sandi2]

Thanks, Coconut. It's really great to hear these responses.

[Coconut]

Stole this quote from Natus' thread. Who would a thought that a woman would be so knowledgeable on what it takes to be a man. Thank you Sandi2, there are some gems in here.

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop? Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

[RSG]

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

These are good. I'm doing a good job, I think, of attacking many of these right now.

I'm taking charge in the little things. Making the decisions, letting her answer, and then offering another idea if necessary.

Saying how things are from my POV, and not trying to cater.

Not being defensive, but being confident in my choices/actions.

Not looking for approval, just being me.

Ending explanations.

Plenty to work on still obviously, but in 6-7 weeks I already see improvements.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Stole this quote from Natus' thread. Who would a thought that a woman would be so knowledgeable on what it takes to be a man. Thank you Sandi2, there are some gems in here.

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop? Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

That all applies UNLESS your wayward wife sends you a heartfelt letter telling you how everything is your fault.

A lot of that information about nice guy syndrome, while having some elements of truth to it, is mostly a lot of bunk. The internet is full up with weak men blaming women, girlfriends, wives and ex's for their inability to define what it means to be a man for themselves. Dr. Glover, in particular, is a narcissist serial cheater who cheated on his first wife only to marry and then divorce his affair partner. Then he wrote book rationalizing and justifying his serial cheating ways as he was just too nice a guy and blaming the women for making him behave so poorly. If only he'd learn to be a man earlier he wouldn't have married them in the first place so it's not his fault. He was the victim of women but now that he's figured out the the secret he's gonna instead just date, have sex with and dump a ton of women making no commitments to anyone (insert PUA - Pick Up Artist content). I, personally, can think of no human LESS qualified to teach, guide and/or explain what it means to be a man or give marriage advice than Dr. Glover. He's basically written a wayward husband playbook not something a real decent man would ever subscribe too. But educating yourself is manly, so read away, just be forewarned before you go buying into it and always remember - As a man, only you can define what being a man means to you.

I do want to apologize for getting emotional on your thread. It just upsets me to see misguided peer advice on these forums when there is clearly sound professional (WMD) advice contrary to it. I, again, quote MWD when she says "no contact means no contact". It doesn't get more black and white than that. It's step one in her book and this forum is supposed to promote her concepts. I understand some posters where there for you in the beginning "when you were so emotional" but those so-called mistakes you made are the reason I'm posting to you at all. Exposure is how I got my wife to end her affair too. I apologized afterwards too, but once the cat is out of the bag it makes carrying on a secret relationship much more difficult. I think it's holding your spouse accountable and therefore it's commendable and the biggest reason you've come this far at all.

That being said, letting her stay volunteering doesn't mean you won't or can't recover. Best practices and best concepts/ideas are just that. They are designed to chart you along to the best odds of recovery. It's your life and you are absolutely free to do what you feel is best in your situation. Some wives respond well to being moderately trusted but to be clear continued contact is a substantial risk. Many might say the affair actually continues if they continue to have any contact whatsoever. There's no way you can or should monitor 24/7 and, I've seen it many times before, just one private conversation between the two of them and they are right back into the secret sneaking around affair. It's so tempting for the two of them to try to check in on the other...."how are you doing?", "are you and your husband recovering", "is he being cruel and punishing", "I miss you", "I tried to leave you alone but the compulsion to see, speak and/or hold you is just too much", "I prayed for the ability to avoid you but God must want us to be together - you are my soulmate". They so easily confuse withdrawal (from any emotional relationship) with passion and longing.

If you intend to continue down this path until, through and maybe past graduation, communication is key. I'd suggest something like (these are just suggestions and thoughts) expressing your discomfort with the job and how important you believe "no contact" really is but caving to her desire to do it anyway ONLY upon some really extreme rules (or really commitments to hold herself accountable).

First - you should reserve the right to revisit the issue later on. Be clear that just because you let her do it now doesn't mean you become a jerk for changing your mind and feelings on the issue later. Doesn't mean you are going to MAKE her quit later either. Just reserve the right to revisit the subject. She's getting what she wants now...so she should be okay with that. To restate, you are not agreeing to forever enduring her continued small but significant contact with OM even if she seemingly follows all the rules.

Second - She agrees never to communicate with him. Unfortunately, this gets tricky in the role of firefighting and you'll have to talk through scenarios but the basic agreement is she will treat him as a non-entity. Even if he approaches her she should say nothing more than "no" because it's easy to explain "I said 'no' and walked away" versus "I don't know exactly what was all said but we talked for about 4 minutes and I told him to leave me alone". 1, 2....4 minutes of conversation is too much. Maybe, since they work together and don't want to draw attention to the situation she has a 5 word limit of "hi, bye, yes, no, ok" and anything more she says requires that she call you immediately and report.

Third - I think you most certainly should volunteer too and until you do she should agree to limit her availability for all the extracurricular stuff that goes on. Many of these units have calendars with events on them well in advance. Either with her knowledge (or if you want to be a little covert) book a trip for the two of you somewhere nice that just happens to conflict with the annual Christmas party or fall parade. Give her a good excuse to miss the event and put it off for another year when you both can be there as volunteers as well as being more recovered and more comfortable.

Fourth - She must be assigned to a different place than OM and not be required or otherwise volunteer to "cover" wherever station or unit OM works in. She'll need to communicate clearly with chief (a meeting would be better including you - but other in writing).

Fifth - No social media with OM or his family

Sixth - No riding together in any vehicle (other than a fire truck - but never just the two of them). Maybe if that's impossible she could simply call you and leave an open voice line with you while it's occurring but really rule 4 should take care of that.

Seventh - No second chances. One blatant violation or hint the affair actually continues she agrees to quit immediately.

Eighth - whatever else you can think of and will think of. Accountability is an evolving concept subject to new rules and adjustments. Essentially she is to have no secret private relationship with him whatsoever.


Letting her continue to keep some contact is a big risk. You really should address that risk with her and PARTNER with her to protect your marriage and family from ALL risks (OM & the other men in the firehouse). Accountability is not about controlling the other person. Instead it's about allowing the other person to help you protect yourself and keep your commitments. It doesn't mean being perfect either. She could end up treating as a non-entity and then he goes off on her upset in front of the whole firehouse and she'll feel the need to respond or make a mistake and talk to him privately. It's not about not messing up but how you handle yourself respectfully afterwards, own your mistake and communicate in an honest immediate manner. No more secrets.

Finally - accountability is a two way street. You can lead by opening up your life to being accountable to her as well. Betrayed spouses are actually the next most likely spouse to cheat. It's healthy for your relationship to both be accountable for your behavior around the opposite sex. Successful marriages do this naturally. It's not something unique to recovered and recovering marriages.

[Coconut]

GBD, thanks for your comments, I agree her leaving would be ideal, but not where I'm at. I will certainly keep my eyes open, and we've already discussed her not interacting and telling me whenever any contact is made.

So funny story. W and S were out of the house yesterday, my mom and nieces came over to swim in evening, after the left I got undressed to put my hating suit in wash, and laid down on the couch before getting dressed and accidentally fell asleep. When W and son came home I was sleeping on couch naked and my S freaked out...

When I was growing up, we showered after gym in school, we changed in locker rooms, and we often showered in public restrooms after beach, but that's not the norm for kids anymore... He's never really been around other naked guys so I think he's traumatized... Lol

As for sitch, everything is going well, nothing to report.. She did get a kick from sons reaction last night.