AndrewP, Sandi, and Jim, I appreciate your thoughts above.
AndrewP, I'm committed to my MR and even more so to my D9, but am very wary of continuing to be my Ws doormat. The OM and what I believe to be a lie are difficult to look beyond though. I agree with your thoughts above that I've enabled her to this point and I've historically looked to make people happy. Sometimes in the past I think I've put other family members in front of my W, myself, and my D, and that's led to some resentment from my W as well.
It's interesting bc I have tended to avoid conflict in my relationships. But as my working career has grown I find myself more willing to be aggressive and willing to take on work conflict as soon as it arises. That hasn't really translated into my M, and I'm trying to leverage my work lessons into the current sitch as a means of changing my behavior for the better. I think there's a lot to be gained for this MR or the next by leaning on my skills there.
The idea of ground rules is a great one. We never had any discussion around S rules, so this should fit the bill pretty well for that. I really do have a problem with her being in my new living space without my permission yesterday. I'd hoped my expressing that to her last night would highlight it, but a more formal notification would probably work better.
Every time I've broached the subject of are you in or out, she tells me she is out. But her behavior and actions seem to say she's straddling the line and living in a gray'ish type area instead of black and white. I'm very cognizant that I may be reading too much into this though and that her answer may be truthful. Still trying to rationalize if her straddling is a good or bad thing. But if she's going to tell me she's out, I think I'm supposed to pursue things like that's her answer.
I'll probably find a L soon so I can have that ready if needed. Doesn't seem like the type of thing I'd want to be doing last minute. Unsure if she's done it yet or not, but I want to be able to respond quickly once she does.
I'm glad that your MR is starting to come back together. Sounds like you have made some great progress and I'm pulling for you brother.
Sandi, I appreciate your direct and honest thoughts on this. I've been through your posts and they've really helped me to start framing my approach with my W and D. Last night came across as pure manipulation on her part and it caused me to leave the sitch with horrible feeling. I woke up this morning still confused but working towards accepting that my not acknowledging it was the right thing to do.
I absolutely have let her take control of the M and our Ds situation. I'd like to think that it's due to working 14hr days at the time we had our D, but I really know now that it's because of me wanting to avoid the reaction she'd have when we fought and the cold reception I'd get for days afterwards. It's pure avoidance and unwillingness to stand up for myself that's gotten me in this sitch and I'm embracing those mistakes and trying to remove them from my personal life and MR.
I'm working to leverage all of this to have both eyes open as we progress through this. Last night she hit my button and I truly had sympathy for her reaction. My heart is telling me things, but I'm trying to leverage my brain and ration to tell my heart it's wrong. It's funny because my W keeps saying that we need to be logical about this S and how we progress to D, but then she does all sorts of illogical stuff herself.
I'm unwilling to be her doormat and wait for this OM or any other OM to fizz out. Per yours and Andrews advice, I'm going to push towards detachment and if she wants to follow me she's more than welcome, but I won't be crushed if she does not. Probably easier said than done, but that's my goal for the coming weeks. I'm trying to do it in a firm way while avoiding being cruel, hateful, cold, etc. but it's going to take some time for the coldness resulting from the sitch this past weekend with the OM to go away. I'm thinking the best thing is to shorten our dialogue so that she can't pull those emotions out of me and leverage them against me again. That's my plan currently and as I finish up DR I've no doubt I'll put some small touchups on it as well.
Also, Sandi, this resonates strongly with me:
"Standing firmly on what you believe to be right and wrong and not willing to compromise your integrity."
This is what I believe I've forgotten after all of these years of dealing with this. It's such a simple yet powerful statement and it's how I used to live my life pre M. I think getting back to this kind of man is precisely what I need for myself. If it's not what she wants then too bad, at least i'll know that there's no truer person that I can be and i'll have tried everything I can to make this M work for my W, my D, and myself.
Jim, thank you as well. I can't forget the one most important factor here which is the well being of my D. It's easy to get caught up in the divisiveness of the sitch b/t myself and my W and lose sight of who we are setting up for a world of hurt. I will not let that happen.
Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you! Please keep any thoughts coming as this venting and ability to leverage your experiences have really helped pull me through the past few days. You have no idea how much you are all appreciated.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
Met w/ the IC this morning and had a fairly helpful session. A lot to update IC on since our meeting last week, if you can't tell from the deluge of words in the previous posts. In a better spot b/t that session and this posting than I was the past cpl days.
Still on edge about the evening situation. Unsure how W reacts after our convo last night. Reminding myself there will be ups and downs and Sandi's comments about it getting worse before it gets better are echoing in my brain. In a peaceful mood right now, but bracing for the unseen. Going to work hard tonight to make the environment comfortable for my D.
One weird thing that happened today is a hold was put on a decent amount of money in our checking account. Copied her on a note to our banks customer service about it and she sent me a long text about one minute later saying in a few different ways that she'd touched nothing on the account. Long story short it was a mistake by the bank but I was just surprised by how quick she was to say it wasn't her. I hadn't thought it was, but was definitely wanting to get it cleared up quickly.
Headed out from work to exercise then headed home. Keeping my head down and pushing forward.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
It's interesting bc I have tended to avoid conflict in my relationships. But as my working career has grown I find myself more willing to be aggressive and willing to take on work conflict as soon as it arises. That hasn't really translated into my M, and I'm trying to leverage my work lessons into the current sitch as a means of changing my behavior for the better. I think there's a lot to be gained for this MR or the next by leaning on my skills there.
This has been a very common trait in the LBH'S who show up on the board. I believe it is part of their nice-guy profile (conflict avoiders), and will do most anything to avoid upsetting the W. However, what they apparently don't know is that a woman will test her H, to see if he is stronger than she is. Women want their man to be the stronger of the two. I don't know that every woman is even aware that she is purposely testing her H, but I'm pretty sure there aren't many who will admit to their H they have, indeed, tested him. It may be seen as a power struggle by some, and after the W has had all the say for a period of time........it is a power she will not give up without proof from the H that he is strong enough to stand up to her. He won't take any of her b.s., disrespect, or any of the other slop she dishes out. That is why it is important that you not avoid conflict at home (with W or kids). You are the man of the house......the leader. So, you have to act like it, and show her you are no longer her doormat to wipe her poop.
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The idea of ground rules is a great one. We never had any discussion around S rules, so this should fit the bill pretty well for that. I really do have a problem with her being in my new living space without my permission yesterday. I'd hoped my expressing that to her last night would highlight it, but a more formal notification would probably work better.
Have you read about boundaries? You need to know your own boundaries. Know what you won't tolerate and know what you must have. It is important to know what consequences you will enforce if your boundaries are not honored. Same thing about ground rules. I can almost see your wheels turning at the idea of the two you of setting down and agreeing to ground rules. But, I can tell you right now that your WW is not going to abide by any rule she decides to break it......at any point and time, B/c she thinks you won't do a blessed thing about it. You have allowed her to have her way all this time and disrespect you terribly. So, what are you going to do about it, Mr. Nice Guy? (That is what she thinks about your ground rules, or stating any boundaries). You have to be prepared to back it up, or don't even waste your breath. Trust me, she will try you out, just to see how far she can push you. You must take the position of no negotiations, no compromising, and no counting to three before you take action. You don't negotiate with what you know is wrong. Same goes for your personal boundaries.
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Every time I've broached the subject of are you in or out, she tells me she is out. But her behavior and actions seem to say she's straddling the line and living in a gray'ish type area instead of black and white. I'm very cognizant that I may be reading too much into this though and that her answer may be truthful. Still trying to rationalize if her straddling is a good or bad thing. But if she's going to tell me she's out, I think I'm supposed to pursue things like that's her answer.
It's called cake eating! That is when the wayward spouse is trying to have the best of both worlds. She wants to keep you as her backup plan, in case OM doesn't work out. So, here is where you need to change your thinking. You don't ask her if she's in or out. You make that decision based on her 1) ending the affair; 2) remorse; 3) willingness to work to save the MR. You consider her attitude toward you, and her show of respect......or lack, thereof. I could say a lot more, that is a beginning point. You have a lot of reading to do, and putting your plan together. Don't rush into something new before you understand it thoroughly (boundaries, for example).
We have seen H's who would tell the WW they won't live in an open M. They mistakenly thought their statement would end her affair. It didn't. So, they were faced with either backing down or backing up their word. Be sure you know what you are doing before spouting off the words.
You said you had read my posts. Are you referring to the threads about the WW that is in Cadet's post of links?
Let me add something else. There is a difference in a nice-guy type...and a good man. I think you are probably a good man, who needs to learn a new approach in the relationship with his wife.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 - you remind me of one of my favourite lines - I have no clue where I picked it up from so you can claim it as your own if you like - if you don't doodler probably will <g>
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"Don't let your mouth write no cheques your tail can't cash."
lt0402 - you sound a bit like me in that you like to have things figured out and a documented plan. One thing that helped me a lot mentally was to go through a few exercises. The first was to go through all of our finances and figure out how I would separate them on MY terms. Part of this was contacting each financial institution and finding out for example how to cancel W's supplementary credit card, set up my own banking, lock down savings so that neither of us could empty the accounts, keep the mortgage paid etc. The other was to educate myself on the divorce / separation process in my area to know my rights and obligations and actually go to the point of downloading and pre-filling out the forms and planning out what I would and would not accept in a S agreement. One of the first things that I did as well was to go through all of my computer files and removed them from the common family computer and changed my passwords. They were stored in the Google Cloud and on another computer she doesn't have access to. I then segregated out "her" files and set up a new share for them in Google which proved useful during the height of the A when she asked where copies of her tax files were.
Even now that things "seem better" I still don't trust W's motivations or what she might do either out of spite or to get an advantage over me.
I feel that I have strings tied to all of these triggers now and even though I've not pulled on many of them yet it makes "me" feel a lot better knowing that I have plans in place that I can act on quickly depending on the situation. Up to that point I was very lost and confused and relying on hopes and dreams that she would "come to her senses" and everything would be back to the way it was.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Halfway through DR and hoping to have it finished in the next few days.
Last night was more of the same. Went to gym, home at 7, D and I played and W went for a run. Ipad in mbr w/ both before bed and then I went to read DR. It's like a surreal loop every day in the evenings.
Gave W an update on the sitch around the bank holding our funds. Immediate question was why the bank thought it was her. Told her they hadn't thought it was her, it was an issue w/ a tax return from a few years ago that I cleared up with a phone call. She responded back that she had misread the email and she thought that I thought she had done something shady at the bank that morning. then she apologized for thinking that.
Fast forward to this AM and I get a text from her asking where my Ds ipad is. I'd taken it at bedtime from my D to plug in downstairs but I must not have. I'm assuming she found it somewhere else and thinks I used it to snoop on her. (I saw the facebook posts b/t her and OM on my daughters ipad 2.5 weeks ago) I'm beyond that though. No inclination to see any messages bt her and OM at this point. Haven't responded back that I didn't snoop, figuring I just let her worry about that and i'll make sure I plug in Ds ipad each evening from here on out.
Getting less anxious about making small mistakes like this, which I think is a good thing. Fighting to get out of fear mode that every small thing I could potentially do wrong could upset her. That said, the reality of the sitch hit me today for the first time in a cpl days and felt like a weight earlier at work. Ups and downs I guess.
W and D went grocery shopping yesterday and bought a pineapple and cut it up for me for when I got home. W also told me my D has an art show for art camp on Fri and asked if I could go with them.
IC thinks it's worthwhile to explain to W what I meant last Thurs by fixing our MR. Believes W is fighting to bury ration and emotion and lever this OM as an excuse to blow up the MR and not have to address anything. Says her fear is that "fixing" things puts us in the same bad sitch we've had in the past and I should redefine that "fixing" means change and both of us being happy together.
W and I are really only talking about D and home stuff. No real MR talks, outside of the emotionally charged convos of the past week. I haven't been able to bring myself to warm up to her after the past weekend's issues so trying to figure out how to address it. My anger comes from multiple, inviolable (at least so I'd previously thought) boundaries being crossed. Tough to just let that roll off and act like nothing happened. I've started taking my wedding ring off when I get home in the evenings and leaving it with my wallet and keys. Painful to do, but it seems like a message to send with a boundary being crossed.
Feels like I'm stuck in a hard place bc our issues that led to this point came from avoidance of each other due to our problems. It seems like it's a continuation of what hasn't worked previously. Reading DR so far, it seems like there's benefit to responding differently than I have in the past bc that hasn't worked. Unsure of how to get there w/ the angst of this past weekend hanging in the air though.
Told W and my D I'm going out for dinner this evening and won't be home until after she's in bed. It'll be good to get out and clear my head. Taking the folks that work for me out to bowl on Monday, which again will be a good escape.
Sandi, you're right. I think the reason I'm having issue standing up to her is I've lost my view on what is and isn't important to me. I've peeled through the post on boundaries on this forum, but need to dig some more. At this point in my sitch, what consequence can I levy for her breaking my boundaries? For example, the violation of my bedroom the other day. I addressed that through expressing to her my displeasure that she would invade my space. Doesn't really seem like a consequence in the scheme of things, more of me telling her it's not cool. She holds me accountable for my actions, I'm realizing that she needs to be held accountable for hers as well. With my D we would have put her in timeout when she was younger, or right now we'd take away her ipad. Unsure the W would go for sitting quietly on a mat for 5 minutes facing the wall though.
AndrewP, its' funny, I'm naturally a laid back, spur of the moment person. but when my mind gets focused on something I turn into the detail/plan oriented person you mention. All the financial stuff you mention is a great idea and i'll hammer that down before next week. I've been so lost in dealing w/ the W and D sitch that I haven't even perused the separation / divorce process, besides seeing what starts the clock ticking on S. Again, the google cloud idea is a great one.
To your point, I'm having a hard time w/ not being able to read my wife's motivations. At times she seems to be trying to get the upper hand on me and at times she seems to want me to take charge over things. I know I've got to not focus on it and instead keep chugging along to better myself and protect myself, but the sheer confusion of everything is one hell of a distraction. But I think you're right, plan for the worst but hope for the best is probably the best course of action here.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
At this point in my sitch, what consequence can I levy for her breaking my boundaries? For example, the violation of my bedroom the other day. I addressed that through expressing to her my displeasure that she would invade my space.
I struggle a lot with that myself. My W is a grown adult even though others have told me she's behaving like a spoiled teenager. Wagging my finger at her and calling her naughty would make for good reality TV but not do a d@mned thing. Blowing up at her might be effective for a short while but would create such a poisonous environment and isn't the "me" that I feel that I am. The only thing that ever worked in any fashion was one day when she told me she was going to see OM when she was upset and wanted to escape me and the house and I threatened to remove my ring and that she needed to do the same. She ended up going to a friend's house to escape instead. I don't think that would have worked a second time.
Originally Posted By: lt0402
AndrewP, its' funny, I'm naturally a laid back, spur of the moment person. but when my mind gets focused on something I turn into the detail/plan oriented person you mention.
Me too - nothing much bothered me at home - it's amazing what you can get used to / treat as "normal". At work or on projects around the home I usually have plans and then backup plans. I don't think my W has realized that she is my current project which is probably for the best.
Originally Posted By: lt0402
To your point, I'm having a hard time w/ not being able to read my wife's motivations. At times she seems to be trying to get the upper hand on me and at times she seems to want me to take charge over things. I know I've got to not focus on it and instead keep chugging along to better myself and protect myself, but the sheer confusion of everything is one hell of a distraction. But I think you're right, plan for the worst but hope for the best is probably the best course of action here.
One huge mistake I feel that I made and was hit with a lot of 2X4s here about was believing that I knew what my W is thinking. As was proven out over time I was so very very wrong about a lot of things and it led me to a lot of pain believing that she cared anything about me at that time.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
At this point in my sitch, what consequence can I levy for her breaking my boundaries? For example, the violation of my bedroom the other day. I addressed that through expressing to her my displeasure that she would invade my space.
I struggle a lot with that myself. My W is a grown adult even though others have told me she's behaving like a spoiled teenager. Wagging my finger at her and calling her naughty would make for good reality TV but not do a d@mned thing. Blowing up at her might be effective for a short while but would create such a poisonous environment and isn't the "me" that I feel that I am. The only thing that ever worked in any fashion was one day when she told me she was going to see OM when she was upset and wanted to escape me and the house and I threatened to remove my ring and that she needed to do the same. She ended up going to a friend's house to escape instead. I don't think that would have worked a second time.
You're right, blowing up at her isnt really a great idea. I dont think threatening to remove your ring is a great idea either.
But you can add a lock to your door, right?
If you set a boundary of something, then the consequence should be directly related to what you dont want to happen. If you had a boarder in your house, they would expect a lock on their door, I think. How is this any different?
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
I don't think my W has realized that she is my current project which is probably for the best.
To both of you....your Ws should not be your "project".
YOU should be your project.
Originally Posted By: lt0402
To your point, I'm having a hard time w/ not being able to read my wife's motivations. At times she seems to be trying to get the upper hand on me and at times she seems to want me to take charge over things. I know I've got to not focus on it and instead keep chugging along to better myself and protect myself, but the sheer confusion of everything is one hell of a distraction.
Thats like trying to guess what an insane person is thinking. You just can't and theres no point in trying.
Hey darknes - long time since we locked horns. I didn't appreciate your tough love approach as much as I should have at the time you were throwing me 2X4s. Not to hijack this thread but ...
Originally Posted By: darknes
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
I don't think my W has realized that she is my current project which is probably for the best.
To both of you....your Ws should not be your "project".
YOU should be your project.
Brace yourself - I completely agree. I perhaps misspoke. I "am" my current project which is coming along "ok" - not as well as I'd like it to but still moving forward. When I referred to my "W" being my project I meant in terms of protecting myself from her action / inaction by making plans for how I would separate finances, knowing how to proceed in a S or D to my own best interests etc. It is VERY difficult but I try very hard to not focus on what W is doing etc. I certainly don't try to make any plans that involve her cooperation or to try to manipulate her because "THAT DOESN'T WORK".
We actually had an interesting interaction yesterday. I had to put down my beloved cat which I'd been avoiding because as I told W - I hated to give up on him and I didn't want to lose yet another thing that was important to me. I was very down and sent W a text saying that I didn't want to make dinner and asking for suggestions. Later - after take-a-way Chinese - she looked up and commented "I never thought - "I" could have made dinner". I've been independent of her for so long now that we've both forgotten that she used to actually do all of the "inside" domestic things.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I'm going to push towards detachment and if she wants to follow me she's more than welcome, but I won't be crushed if she does not.
Detachment doesn’t mean physically separate yourself from your WW, it’s about disconnecting your emotions from her, she can’t follow you there. I like to think of detachment like this: I love my cousin, we grew up together and spent a lot of time together through the years; but if my cousin told me one day that he was going to move to another state the following week I wouldn’t get sad and depressed, because my happiness isn’t based on being near or with my cousin, I’m not emotionally attached to my cousin. Sure I love him, I will miss him, but I know I will still be happy without him living near me. Change cousin to Wife, would I be sad and depressed, yes because I am emotionally attached. A healthy response would be similar to that of my cousin, I should miss my wife, even want her to stay, but it’s healthy to know that your happiness doesn’t come from being next to your W and you will continue to be happy.
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Fast forward to this AM and I get a text from her asking where my Ds ipad is. I'd taken it at bedtime from my D to plug in downstairs but I must not have. I'm assuming she found it somewhere else and thinks I used it to snoop on her. (I saw the facebook posts b/t her and OM on my daughters ipad 2.5 weeks ago) I'm beyond that though. No inclination to see any messages bt her and OM at this point. Haven't responded back that I didn't snoop, figuring I just let her worry about that and i'll make sure I plug in Ds ipad each evening from here on out.
That last sentence “figuring I just let her worry about that and i'll make sure I plug in Ds ipad each evening from here on out.”, is not healthy. You simply set it down and forgot about it, you do not need to cower to your W’s questioning you about it, nor do you need to make sure you are perfect in the future. You are allowed to set something down and forget about it. You are the man of your house, you do not allow others to intimidate you in your own house, and you are allowed to make mistakes and be human in your own house without “fearing” the repercussions, stand up for yourself.
Originally Posted By: lt0402
IC thinks it's worthwhile to explain to W what I meant last Thurs by fixing our MR. Believes W is fighting to bury ration and emotion and lever this OM as an excuse to blow up the MR and not have to address anything. Says her fear is that "fixing" things puts us in the same bad sitch we've had in the past and I should redefine that "fixing" means change and both of us being happy together.
I’m no professional, but I can tell you that while your W is in an A she doesn’t care what you think your future with her looks like, she doesn’t even consider you her H. If she is with another man, what makes you think she cares at all about what you think?
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Feels like I'm stuck in a hard place bc our issues that led to this point came from avoidance of each other due to our problems. It seems like it's a continuation of what hasn't worked previously. Reading DR so far, it seems like there's benefit to responding differently than I have in the past bc that hasn't worked. Unsure of how to get there w/ the angst of this past weekend hanging in the air though.
My only comment on this is that on your first post you wrote “I spent the next two weeks doing everything under the sun to show her that I cared. I have not always been the most attentive H when it came to chores/responsibilities so that's were I focused all my efforts. I'm learning now that this is the absolute wrong way to go.” How did that work out? You being disengaged from the MR might have contributed to you being in this mess, but let me ask you, where you an awesome happy guy that was disengaged, or were you simply going through the motions of life? No one is saying to keep doing what you were doing, everyone is telling you to find yourself, be awesome, be happy.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
