How to rekindle love?

[Zues126]

I've posted a lot on this issue and have at times lead threads to be hijacked in multipaged discussions or debates. Fortunately we are on DB forums where even when emotions run high, respect for other forum members runs high as well.

I will try to be brief but want to share an alternative point of view. This isn't to say it's "right". But it may help you to understand how your H looks at the situation.

Look at a spectrum that runs from 'icing on the cake' to 'the cake itself'. From things that are nice, things that are important, and things that are necessary.

Nice things might be things like reading the same books, watching the same movies, a shared hobby. It's great when they line up, but no big deal.

Important things might be things like planning for retirement, parenting the kids well, or sharing a religion if both are strong of faith.

Necessary things might include having a roof over your head, having food to eat, and feeling physically safe with each other.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding about sex is whether it is a nice thing, and important thing, or a necessary thing. Oftentimes one spouse things it's a nice/important thing, while the other feels it is necessary. Right or wrong, this is often the viewpoint.

If H hears "if you make me feel desirable then..." it might be hard for him because to him this is a non-conditional requirement. He might feel sexual neglect as harmful as physical abuse. Can you imagine how shocking it would be to hear "if you treat me better you'll find I don't hit you" would be?

Please forum, don't think I'm equating sexual neglect and physical abuse. It obviously isn't, and I'm not saying she's wrong and H is right. I am strictly trying to help her understand how they can look at the same situation and see different things, and why H might have a hard time with conditional concessions.

[JksD]

Rose88,

I am sorry about your sitch.

Have you considered going for sex therapy on your own? Also have you read Michele's Sex starved marriage?

The point Zeus is making is found in Michele's SSM.

I was in a SSM for many years. After reading Michele's SSM, I finally got what the x had been trying to tell me for years.

[Zues126]

I'll add this because it literally came to me in a dream just now.

He tries to explain how important it is to you, how it's necessary to him. You hand him a list of what you need to feel sexual desire, and what you'd need to be the woman he wants to be. You ask "which of these items is unreasonable, what is on this list that you can't provide me?" And he looks at it in despair and defeat and says "I don't know, everything looks fine and I want to do it, I just know no matter what I do somehow some condition won't be met right and I will end up dying inside..."

[Rose888]

Rose88,

I am sorry about your sitch.

Have you considered going for sex therapy on your own? Also have you read Michele's Sex starved marriage?

The point Zeus is making is found in Michele's SSM.

I was in a SSM for many years. After reading Michele's SSM, I finally got what the x had been trying to tell me for years.

I have read Michele's SSM. That was what lead me to DR and the boards. And I agree, I finally got it.

I wish I hadn't been so deaf to what H was saying for years.

The thought of losing H, combined with reuniting after a non-marriage-related separation, jolted my libido to a level I hadn't seen before. That faded about a month ago, and I've returned to needing lubrication and not always orgasming.

My behavior is still placing sex in the Critical/Necessary category. We have sex more days than we don't. I initiate. I am responsive when he initiates. I touch and flirt and admire during the day.

But H has noticed the change in physical symptoms.

And he worries it's the first step in a return to the old marriage where I had sex mostly because I thought I had to.

It's going to take time for me to show him the change is real. And I fear that even if he sees that it is, he'll decide he needs someone whose desire is as strong as his, and that the part I can control is not enough.

I hadn't thought of doing sex therapy alone. The counsellors I've looked into around here only talk about treating couples, but I'm going to take another look.

[Rose888]

Zeus, I understand what you are saying, and I (now) agree.

We have two issues now. H does not trust that the change will last, and H wants a wife for whom sex is also a necessity.

I have done a complete 180 in terms of behavior and mental attitude about sex, but I haven't found a way to get my desire to that level short of the fear of losing him, and even that didn't last.

Hopefully, over time, H will see the change is lasting and will decide he can be happy with that.

[Zues126]

Rose, thank you. My posts were to help sr9, sounds like you've done a lot of thinking on this.

Obviously there is a two way street. He needs to own his behavior. Part of that may be what he provides to you to meet your needs. Part of that is to manage through his fears and insecurities. Part of that is to accept that we don't get everything we want in life.

One of your needs is to feel safe, that you have a man you can depend on being there. He needs to realize that his fear of being sexually unfulfilled is a trigger for your fear he'll walk. It's really tricky to work through this as a couple, because when you or he voice your feelings and needs it is liable to wake up fears in their partner. It's hard to work as a team through this without help. Ideally the same way that you are doing what you can to accommodate him, he should be doing what he can to assure you that he isn't walking.

And he needs to understand that he won't always be sexually fulfilled every moment, and that if there is a tough week or month or bad night, he can't overreact and extrapolate and blow that out of proportion. Finally, the part about not getting everything you want is critical too, because a man's appetite is insatiable and there will always be hunger for more. This next sentence is important to me, I've never found a way to express it before so here goes: Sex isn't important to a man because it fulfills a sexual hunger, sex is important to a man because it's his partner's way of acknowledging and validating the pain of living with constant endless unquenchable desire. So he needs to still live with that, that's just part of being a man.

Just remember one thing Rose...maybe he is trying to assure you he isn't going to leave. But then when he voices his fears, you get afraid. Or he assures you that he won't leave...but you stil have your doubts because he seems distant at times, or one day he spoke with a viewpoint that he used when he was in the fog. My point is that it's eerily parallel to his need for reassurances and his fears. So to some point you will just have to work through these as well, and accept that it won't be perfect, and that you'll never have the absolute trust and commitment that you crave because that isn't possible in this world.

I'm getting dizzy. I think I have some clarity and then it gets so complicated I sometimes lose the thread. Maybe I am murking up the waters. I guess I could've just said you both have to do your best and accept what that looks like, and trust that it will get better as months turn to years and your track record becomes better and better. I don't know your sitch well, I was drawn here by another poster I follow...but I'll keep up now. Keep it going Rose!

[JujuB]

Hi Rose, I am happy that you and your husband are working on your marriage and that things are better, including your sex life. I could be wrong but I get the impression that you feel that if you cannot maintain a certain level of sexual arousal your marriage is at risk? What does your counselor say about this? My husband often had trouble performing, and while dissapointed, it was never a thought that I would leave or make threats to the marriage. To do so would be humiliating to my husband or to any person. It almost becomes like a test and to live with that type of pressure is very stressful.

To me, marriage is commitment and faithfulness. No ultimatums, no tests.

Zues, I like how you categorized nice things, important things, and necessary things... So many marital problems could be avoided if we just communicated this directly and simply in the beginning of our relationships and reviewed in a kind and open way throughout the relationship. Put it all in writing so no misunderstandings. (Maybe you should get a second job as a marriage counselor )

Most people do not set out to INTENTIONALY neglect their partner's needs. Whether it be communication or sex. When they do, I think it is a form of control and some type of power struggle, which can be just as bad as physical abuse no? I know I am contradicting myself because with physical abuse you leave a marriage but do you do so if partner rejects sex or communication for control? (I didn't. And in past year before BD my husband was intentionally rejecting opportunitities for sex ) Are they even doing this consciously? In a way, that type of control is even worse then physical abuse because of the mind F... No pun intended.

I agree that sex should never be an exchange because that is a form of control. ("Only way we have sex is if there is romantic dinner involved" or "I will only stay married if we have sex"). It should be an act performed to make each other happy plus all the other benefits that come with it .

[Rose888]

JujuB, yes, I think my marriage might be at risk. I say "might" because H is generally a very loyal person, and even when he was his most detached and not yet committed to trying to reattach, he was conflicted about the right course of action.

I hear what you are saying about marriage being a commitment. I agree.

However, I gave lip service to that while failing to meet one of H's critical needs for 22 years. And he stuck with me and met MY needs all that time.

It's understandable that, finding himself emotionally detached, he would think that if he ever wanted a partner who desired him the way he wants to be desired, now is his chance to try to find that.

I think my libido would be less of a risk to the marriage if I had met H's needs better for the last two decades.

[JujuB]

Rose

I disagree. It is not understandable that husband wants to leave marriage after 22 years and 4 kids to find someone that is more sexually compatible. Now if he does, that is out of your control and completely on him. Don't accept that blame and guilt. Just work on what you can now. He communicated his needs, and you are doing your best to fulfill them. That says a lot about you and your commitment to your partner. I am sure there were needs of yours that were never being met, none of which you would leave a marriage for!

My husband left and said he wanted someone more like his mom..who is domestic superwoman and cited my lack of doing his laundry as a big reason. (Meanwhile he once told me to never do his laundry because I shrunk clothing) Before he left, I was doing best to run all his errands and domestic needs. But looking back, it could never be good enough because he was looking for something to justify a selfish action he wanted to take. So yes, his needs of service were not being met, but my needs were not either and I remained loyal.

I truly hope he looks at the bigger picture, which is a faithful and committed wife and companion. That desire from someone which he is seeking is temporary and unsustainable and will never compare to family and committment. And so illogical. What if he finds someone that desires him 24/7 and she ends up with endometrial cancer? Will he just leave her, since she won't be able to desire him the way he needs to?

I hope he realizes this. I hate seeing you take the blame.

[JujuB]

That being said...I have a lot of hope for your situation and your husband does seem to be making an effort and trying! And you are doing great with the not asking for reassurances.