WHs do come back--Piecing--

[Coconut]

It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you." For me, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, I want to have history with someone, I want to know that I tried everything I could.

So to my point. Blu, this hits the nail right on the head and is the missing piece in far to many relationships IMHO.
"I don't need you, but I want you."
How many are struggling in this community because they NEED their spouse.
This is obvious in the postings, because in one sentence the LBS is talking about all the things they need from the WAS/WW, then in the next sentence, the comments are all about the person that they can not believe the WAS/WW has become and they do not like nor want to be with that person.

I'd like to add to this "I want you, I don't need you" thought... I was never able to detach from my WW, so when she came around and I got "her" back, I started having a lot of anger build up. I think a big part of that is because I "Needed" my W back, but who I got back was not my W, at least not the W I needed. I got back my W who had an affair.

In the beginning stages, the person that we naturally want to chase and save from ruining our M is the W we know, but upon Bomb Drop, that person is gone. I see a future with my W, but not the same future I saw before bomb drop, I now have to consciously decide that I want the future with the W I have now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though my WW came back to me, the W that I "needed" no longer exists, and had I been able to detach I don't think that realization would have had such an impact on me.

[BluWave]

C-nut,

That makes sense to me. Yes, essentially the person we need (and/or want) is the person and M that we had. However, we also must acknowledge that that person is not who we think they are because that person we loved would not have an A in our minds. So when we get them back, we are getting the person that has now had an A and we know that they are a person capable of hurting us. Even if no A, we know they can hurt us and give up on us. That can be hard to accept. For me, it has taken this entire time of piecing to accept this. Can I love someone as much as before, knowing they are capable of hurting me?

I don't think that means we cannot love them again tho. They are still the same person, but they have made some terrible choices. My therapist helped me understand this: H is still the same person, he has now made a big mistake. I cannot idealize or romanticize him ever again. I think what makes piecing so difficult is that both people are working on the M, while simultaneously working on themselves. In order for reconciliation to be successful, the wayward must do the painful work of understanding how this happened, why it happened, and moving forward learning how they can learn and grow from it.

The LBS must do the same. I think the reason that DB is so wonderful, is because it is what we need to be doing all along. If this work isn't done, then it will have to be done during piecing. That is something I have been dealing with. When I say work, I mean more than just 180s, GAL, and detachment, but I also mean soul searching and really looking inside. It is asking yourself those tough questions.

Just my thoughts on that.

Saw OW again today. It has been way too frequently lately. Kinda made my stomach churn. Ugh. At least the pain is fading.

Thanks for reading.

-Blu

[Unbowed]

There's the codependent behavior. There's the paradoxical behavior where I believed I was doing right by my wife, but in fact I was putting too much pressure on her instead of taking responsibility for my own happiness.

Yep, that is what I have read too. Being a devote husband and father and provider who is completely selfless... What kind of woman would want that? They'd rather a guy who is out drinking with his buddies all the time, having fun without the family, leaving them home to rot, no good solid career goals, etc... someone "fun." Or, better yet, have kids with the devote father with a good career, collect child support from him, get free time from the kids by "allowing" him partial custody, and then go out and have fun, the best of all worlds! Think I'm a little bitter?

OFP, I really hear you. I struggled with this greatly. Still do. As I felt rejected and humiliated without knowing why (I was devoted, never did any of the things that many of the people on this thread's partners did-A's, etc) and still experienced her withdraw and felt her contempt rise for me. I looked around and saw all the **shole guys doing their thing and couldn't understand what was happening to me. After all, I was doing everything right.

I don't know why this happens. And I don't think it's every W or partner that reacts in the way my W did. What I've read is that for many W, it's caused by biology and ingrained male/female roles.

When a man devotes everything to his partner, he loses himself, and his own identity. He begins to act for someone's else's identity. He does (or appears to) lose his passion, his drive for life. He loses his hobbies, his friends. All these were things that his partner was attracted to in the first place. he avoids conflict, trying to keep the peace at any cost. Often in my place, less out of cowardice, but more out of really wanting to not a another stressor on my W's increasingly difficult life.
Over time, this leads to small, but cumulative repression of your own desires, needs, etc.
This causes your partner to lose trust in you because they feel like they are not experiencing your true self. And (and I don't understand this), apparently they lose trust in a man who doesn't have his own purpose in life. Loss of trust leads to loss of respect, leads to loss of attraction, and anger and resentment on their part. I.e., why won't you step up as a man?

Sadly, being a good father and husband does not seem to be enough. When I saw my W's difficult journey in a male-dominated career, and her struggles with spending so much time with the kids, I doubled down on being nicer, and putting her needs constantly first. I actually took pride and saw it my life's mission to help my wife achieve her dreams, which I felt would be best for our family. My passion was my family.

It pushed her away even more. A very sad, confusing, feeling for me.

Now, I am not saying this is every partner. Far from it. Here in this forum, we are meeting women with nice guy partners who have done far more hurtful things than I have. To me, its incredible that Blu is fighting to craft a new, loving, marriage, even in the face of what her H has done.

Coming back around to the unfairness of it all. And I am speaking for me right now. This is my current path. I have tried to stop resenting what's happening to me. Taking responsibility for my own life, detaching, trying to GAL and 180 makes me less of a victim. And mainly it was because doe eyed devotion didn't work for me. Once my W got to a certain point, all my loving actions, just turned her off more. I felt like an unpopular high school freshman professing his love to the head cheerleader, only to have her tell him what a great guy he is and how she's sure there's someone special our there for him. All this with my partner of over 20 years.

So my changes away from following her around the house, trying to do nice things for her, crying, begging for hugs, etc, are adopting the chapter of DR, which talks about stopping going down cheeseless tunnels. What I was doing was not working so i have to try something else. And I'll need to find myself again, if I'm going to save this M, or to make sure my next relationship is more healthy.

To be clear, this is not a license to 180 into a uncaring jerk. Some nice guys think, oh now I've just got to be like those other completely selfish guys out there. But I, at least, feel like I've got to develop my outside life, my outside passions, and support my W and F at the same time. I've got to put myself first, and seek out my own needs, detach and stay loving at the same time. I have to be less needy, show I don't need my W to be happy. It feels paradoxical to me, and it feels unloving and selfish. But again, what I was doing wasn't working, so. . . And under my personal code, I have to do this without seeking intimate solace with another woman.

Again OFP, this may not be your situation at all. And I hope I'm not coming across sexist. But this seems to be reality for me. In my case, I think my wife wonders if she can trust me to protect her and my family, if I can't even stand up to her and for what I want.

[Si_07]

Hi Unbowed, just reading your post here also resonates with me. Trying to do everything to follow my wife's dreams, while losing myself in the process. Right to the point I became broken and someone I look back at with dislike. I became inconsistent as I fought my own demons, not realizing the damage I was doing and the hurt I was causing. My only passion also became my family.

[Phoebe]

Hi, Blu! I just wanted to say hello! My family stuff is over, so now I'll have some time to catch up here a little bit.

I hope you are doing well.

(((Blu)))

[OFP]

When a man devotes everything to his partner, he loses himself, and his own identity. He begins to act for someone's else's identity. He does (or appears to) lose his passion, his drive for life. He loses his hobbies, his friends. All these were things that his partner was attracted to in the first place.

I very much hear you, but also want to add, I don't know if there is a "correct" approach with some S's? If there is, I also missed it. I may have gone the other extreme, allowing her to deal with her own issues, trying to go on with life and including her as much as possible made her feel controlled or that I wasn't interested in her opinion. My shift of focus went to the children. She had ideas of things to do also, but they were semi-unrealistic, unaffordable, etc. Pointing out these facts "proved" to her that I didn't care about her wants.

Blu, I am curious about the connections to your sitch. You have identified your contribution to issues in the M. I am going to assume you made attempts to keep the marriage healthy/stable before BD. And your H, did he do any work to try, or did he leave with the mentality: This isn't working, I don't need to do "work", I'm done?

[sr9e2d7]

Blu, your post gives me so much hope. My H has been gone for a little over 5 months - says he's "looking to find what makes him happy". He's starting to come around and we are going to reevaluate our situation at the end of the month. I want him back, and I've learned the past 5 months that I don't need him - just want. How hard was it to trust again? To forgive?

[BluWave]

Unbowed,

Your insight into your sitch and yourself is beyond impressive; you get it. What you said here really resonated with me!

"Over time, this leads to small, but cumulative repression of your own desires, needs, etc. This causes your partner to lose trust in you because they feel like they are not experiencing your true self. And (and I don't understand this), apparently they lose trust in a man who doesn't have his own purpose in life. Loss of trust leads to loss of respect, leads to loss of attraction, and anger and resentment on their part. I.e., why won't you step up as a man?"

This is what was happening in my M before any A ever started. H put on the perfect Nice Guy face, was present for me and the kids, however he lost his own identity. I recall being frustrated that I didn't understand his needs and opinions. I recall at times losing attraction for him because he didn't have his own hobbies, friendships, or backbone. I recall at times he would do/say things that felt passive aggressive, but I could not quite put my finger on it. He kept working hard to be this great Nice guy, all the while building resentment, and it was incredibly frustrating. He would blame me for not getting his needs met, but often I didn't know what that was. I also didn't know I was being blamed. He would shrug, gasp, even walk away, and I would feel confused because I didn't know what he was thinking. I started to lose respect for him.

Perhaps you are building resentment towards your wife as well? If you are doing so much for her and the family, yet she is turning her back on you and there is no intimacy, how could you not be? No one is simply "selfless" and lives to please others, right? It is something to be aware of. So I think you are doing the right thing by detaching, GAL, 180s, and being a better man for you. That is also what women find attractive. DB is essentially how to recover from Nice Guy issues.

I do NOT however think it's normal for women (especially mothers) to be attracted to men that are selfish, drink too much, lie, cheat, and would rather go out with the guys than spend time with the family. These women that prefer that clearly have their own host of issues! However, I do think women are attracted to men that have a strong sense of who they are--confidence, interests, a strong emotional core, and someone that can add to the relationship, as opposed to being there only to support her. If we want a puppy, we can adopt one.

OFP,

It sounds like you have been burned. I am sorry, that is harsh. I can't imagine your W would just want someone you describe; on some level she must not feel that she deserves better. I think DB is what Nice Guys need. If you can learn and follow the rules, you not only will attract women to you, but you will feel better about yourself as well. I think DB philosophy is inline with recovering from Nice Guy syndrome. It is about truly learning your own value, interests, and strengths.

If your W would rather be with a dirtbag, then quite simply, you will find over time that you don't want someone like that. You deserve a woman that values you and your strong suits. Sometimes our sitches are so strikingly obvious, we can't accept it--because we don't want to.

"Blu, I am curious about the connections to your sitch. You have identified your contribution to issues in the M. I am going to assume you made attempts to keep the marriage healthy/stable before BD. And your H, did he do any work to try, or did he leave with the mentality: This isn't working, I don't need to do "work", I'm done?"

This is hard to answer! I did make attempts to work on the M--I fought blood, sweat, and tears for many months before BD. The problem was, he was in an active EA and I just didn't know it. So it was too late. Our family got complicated with a sequence of losses and extreme hardships over the course of a couple years and I was anxious and depressed. H was present for me and the family and wanted to help and fix all of it. He didn't have any of his own outlets. I didn't know he was silently suffering and building resentment. OW, being the snake that she is, was preying on him and befriending him. She wanted to "rescue" him from his hardships--told him he deserved better, flattered him, opened up to him, and shared her own unhappiness in her M with him.

I did not know this was happening, but I felt a growing distance. He still came home every night for dinner and put me and the kids first. So when I found out about the EA, everything blew up and I was so angry and upset. He felt that he had ruined the M at this point and just gave up--he felt I would never forgive him and it wouldn't work. Of course OW was right there pursuing and waiting. So he ran. That doesn't surprise me now. This was another way for him to avoid looking at himself and he rewrote history "W makes my unhappy and doesn't appreciate me." This is how he justified the A.

We (DBers) all know that no one can make us happy or make us unhappy. Happiness comes from within. I think that is the biggest silver lining for all of us here. We are forced to get it and can no longer skate through life pointing fingers at others. We are now empowered to take responsibility for our own happiness. This is the key right here.

-Blu

[OFP]

I do NOT however think it's normal for women (especially mothers) to be attracted to men that are selfish, drink too much, lie, cheat, and would rather go out with the guys than spend time with the family.

This was a trend I noticed when I was much younger. The girls seemed more interested in the burn-outs than the smart guys.

I still don't know what my xW is up to... But there is the "affair down" thing that we hear about so often. She preferred loser friends, more like friends she had before we met. And her previous boyfriends were definitely the lying/cheating/drinking type. I was not her type.

It sounds like you have been burned. I am sorry, that is harsh. I can't imagine your W would just want someone you describe; on some level she must not feel that she deserves better.

I "feel" burned.

That's an interesting statement... to leave a M because she deserves better, but then settles because she doesn't? Maybe she'd rather a puppy?

My xW was (or thinks she was) the nice one. She has made statements about that she felt controlled, she didn't know who she was, she felt like a servant not my equal, she was too nice, etc. She lost herself trying to become something she is not (without actually telling me that), and resented me for it. I told her happiness comes from within.

If your W would rather be with a dirtbag, then quite simply, you will find over time that you don't want someone like that. You deserve a woman that values you and your strong suits. Sometimes our sitches are so strikingly obvious, we can't accept it--because we don't want to.

So true... like I said I don't know what she is up to, I would "like" to believe there's no A.

Ironic, I have gotten more feedback in other people's thread on my sitch than my own thread... I need to stop hijacking.

I am so sorry you had to go through this. I am so happy for you that you got to the piecing level, and I wish you the best for however it works out for you. At least if it ends, you can do so on good terms, knowing you gave it your all.

[BluWave]

OFP, you can hijack away my friend, we are all here to read/write and learn/grow, be it my thread or yours. (that sounded kinda dirty, lol) Actually, I find it easier to check this thread. There are so many posters that I am trying to keep up with, but it's hard to keep track of each sitch and I don't have enough time in the day to read them all.

Did you get the other book about Nice Guys and read it? I am curious to know how many men here feel that they fall into that category and what they are doing to recover. So Nice Guys, come on over, hijack away. ... I really do amuse myself...

-Blu