If you think you may have some of the tendencies, I'd check out the book. There can be some tough truths exposed, but it may change your life for the better. Since we can't reference the title, you can probably figure it out by reading this whole thread.
I think "nice guys" can come in different varieties. For example, I don't believe I behaved purposefully at the level of nasty, ultra controlling behavior that Vanilla speaks of. I really do love and care for my wife.
But my behaviors, which were subconsciously designed to gain approval and were codependent, did harm me and our relationship. For me, I also lost my strength and identity in the face of a controlling women, who grew to see my kindness as weakness. Some of my kindness was to get credit to soothe my insecurities. But most of it was genuine love and caring.
My own nice guy behaviors did lead to distancing, because I did hide my true thoughts at times when I thought my opinions would not be well received and under the erroneous assumption that avoiding conflict was a gift to my wife as she became ultra stressed in her tough career. That behavior [/b]is[b] destructive, as I now know, but for me I wasn't exposed as a secret a**hole with a fake smile, I looked for reasons for why I failed with my wife, and found the book, which educated me to how us nice guys can fool ourselves. My life wasn't a fake construct, but when I wasn't honest, I was behaving like at a**hole.
Mine was the crime of lack of insight, and a lack of understanding and confidence that the best path to love and success is to own your mistakes, and face other people's disapproval, instead of hiding mistakes. And certainly cowardice at times.
I don't believe that all nice guys all behave in the same way, but if you feel like you give give give, devote your life to others (especially women), but feel like you don't get back the love you think you have earned, then you may have nice guy tendencies and may actually unknowingly be undermining yourself. It's true that nice guys generally do have a covert contract that if they treat everyone really well, then they will get that good treatment back.
And Sadhub, I've seen some of your other posts. And feel your pain, brother. Hang in there.
Well I am definitely a nice guy and have contributed to the demise of my M. I wish I could change my switch but can only control me. Not sure I will ever be able to get into another R again. I feel like I have hurt my Web so much that she will truly never forgive which will hurt our boys the most.
H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6 S-9,8,8,6,4 S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15 EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16 PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16 XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16 Finally moving forward...
From Unbowed: "Finally, Blu, could you describe the difference between ignoring him (which made things worse) and leaving him alone (which helped). In my own 180s I struggle with the line between this."
Yes, I will try my best. This is something I see people confuse here often. I think we cannot take lightly what are intentions are verses are actions. I can only list my actions here, and lack there of, but the intentions can hold far more weight. We are so much more intuitive than we are able to give ourselves credit for. That is why I tell people to trust their gut, it will never steer you wrong. When I look back on the last 3 years and where I felt my H was at compared to where I wanted him to be--I could spend a long time reading here and self-doubting---but my simple gut feeling was right. Well the spouses have gut feelings too, so keep that in mind. Even if you think you are following the DB principles, if you are doing it only to show them, most likely their gut will know too.
When I ignored him it was to prove a point and show him I didn't need to respond and that I didn't need him: I would intentionally not reply to texts, emails, and called. When I ignored him, I wondered if he would notice that I was not responding. When I ignored him, I wanted to hurt him. When I ignored him, I withheld information he was asking for. When I ignored him, he felt that I was trying to hurt him (I was), and he felt incredibly frustrated. He was trying to "make nice" even while we were S, and I didn't give him that opportunity. He felt that he deserved this treatment, however it also hurt him, angered him, and pushed him away. I kept a wall up too, but only blamed him.
When I left him alone, it was also my personal choice to let him go and do as he pleased. This was harder and was not natural feeling. I had to put emotions on the back burner. These were the times I could DB at my best. I did not chase, pursue, or try and talk with him. I let him approach me--text, email, call, in person--but I did not turn away. I listened and I replied. But I also kept my personal boundaries. I didn't show him my anger, my emotions, and I was pleasant/cordial, but not for show. When I was able to DB at my best, I treated him like a neighbor; minimal interactions and investment (positive or negative), however if he reached out or asked me things, I responded. I kept it cordial, simple, to the point, and then I went on my way.
I think understanding the difference is key. I read some of the threads here and the poster seems as if they understand; then they give specific examples of interactions and prove that they are doing the opposite. It is all about intentions! Treat them like a neighbor--be nice, hold your head up, but do not spend much time on them.
-Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
From Unbowed: "I think "nice guys" can come in different varieties. For example, I don't believe I behaved purposefully at the level of nasty, ultra controlling behavior that Vanilla speaks of. I really do love and care for my wife.
But my behaviors, which were subconsciously designed to gain approval and were codependent, did harm me and our relationship. For me, I also lost my strength and identity in the face of a controlling women, who grew to see my kindness as weakness. Some of my kindness was to get credit to soothe my insecurities. But most of it was genuine love and caring."
Unbowed, I am so glad you are here. I really appreciate your input. Nice Guys come in all shapes and sizes, but you hit some key points. There are many, many men (and especially on this board) that are nice guys but may not be suffering from it. For those that are Nice Guys, there are varying degrees of it. I think Vanilla is describing one extreme and I think you are another.
So I want to tell you a little more about my recovering Nice Guy. He was raised by a very strict, overbearing, and emasculating mother. He learned at a young age that he needs to respect all women and that women are right. He was raised to believe that anything stereotypically masculine was bad. There was no sports for him, no popular tv/movies, and anything that had anything to do with sex was forbidden. This continued far beyond puberty and into adolescence.
His mother stayed at home and raised the children and his father worked a lot and was mostly absent. He did not have a male role model. He was disciplined harshly by her and any interest in sex or dating led to shaming. He learned early on in life to accommodate women and to put their need and feelings before his own. He often felt guilty and "bad" or that he was selfish as a child.
So my H has learned to be the perfect Nice Guy. Women love him and freely open up to him; this led to problems and ultimately the EA because he had no boundaries. I also think I lost respect for him and saw him as weak at times. He did not stand up to me, he did not initiate plans, and I was often frustrated because I did not get clear answers from him or know his opinion. I think I also became more controlling and took his generosity for granted. I felt that he was wonderful and would never hurt me or go anywhere.
Even though I was often frustrated by his indifference and not having a back bone at times, I very much loved his kindness and gentle nature. What I did not understand was that he was growing resentment, felt emasculated, and did not have any healthy outlets of his own. So the A was the ultimate expression of his passive aggressiveness and the selfish act that let him safely escape his captivity.
-Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
OFP, I am not caught up on your sitch. So your W filed an injunction? I didn't realize she could do that without more evidence of potential harm? Not using any correct legal terms here, sorry folks. ... But I am glad you were not able to pursue her, harass her, etc, as that would have only made things worse.
At least where I live, someone can make up a story, and get an OFP, with essentially no questions asked, it is crazy easy to do. I think there are some minimum requirements, like r@pe for example, like my W accused me of! Sad part, she actually believes it! Nothing could be farther from the truth. 2 days earlier W was unloading a bunch of other stuff she was upset about, essentially her "on the way out speech", and finished by saying "one thing I have to say, the SL was great! She went to an advocates group, I think they planted the seed, she ran with it, and engraved it into her "rewriting history" routine.
Originally Posted By: BluWave
OFP & DDJ, you guys are correct. You do not want a broken person back! No one does! .... we want a person that loves us the way we love them.... focus on ourselves and LET THEM GO.... That is not to say that we don't ever want them back. I don't think many of you can even know that right now. It depends on what they learn on their journey and who they present to you if and when they do come back. -Blu
I trimmed your reply a little. These words have been said to me repeatedly, though differently. I think this time it might have sunk in. Zephyr and/or SadHub I believe, have tried to hit me with this 2x4 a few times.... I ducked and they missed! And they continued by saying that I would not want W back in her current state. So true!
Originally Posted By: BluWave
From Unbowed: "I think "nice guys" can come in different varieties. For example, I don't believe I behaved purposefully at the level of nasty, ultra controlling behavior that Vanilla speaks of. I really do love and care for my wife.
You are right, "nice guys" can vary all over the place. I went out and did things without my W maybe 5 times the entire 21 years of our M, and every one was short. On the other hand I had some anger issues, so not totally "nice guy." Other things I vented freely, definitely did not qualify as "nice guy."
Some of my history is similar to your H's... which is something I have been focusing on the last week or so, what my feelings are based on how I was raised. I have/had codependency something fierce, and I am finding out my mother was the source of it, using shame and blame and other tools in a so-called loving way! Living there and now realizing the source, is quite painful... but probably the fastest way to learn!
One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships.
Huh, this one surprised me. I too have felt much more comfortable talking to women, though I have never ever grown a close connection to any woman while I was M, or done anything that should even made her concerned.
I almost forgot to comment on another topic, can't find it now but someone posted about not it being the right time to read relationship books... there were times for me that reading them felt great. Only on the days I was really hopeful that it might actually work out with W. Most days, they would cause more anxiety and I would dread the thought of reading one. So I think that it is normal, read what you want based on what you are feeling that day. For me I know there's no chance of a R in the next 6 months, and I have bigger issues to deal with now.
One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships.
Huh, this one surprised me. I too have felt much more comfortable talking to women, though I have never ever grown a close connection to any woman while I was M, or done anything that should even made her concerned.
To clarify, what I meant by women pleasing is their female partner. I personally don't have a problem with male friendships. I get along and like hanging out with men quite a bit. But supposedly, many Nice Guys do feel uncomfortable.
I also didn't have any inappropriate relationships with women during my M, but, what I did do is fail to seek out spending time with male friends, because I felt I should devote all my energy (outside of the kids) to spending time with my wife, and forgoing my friendships. There's the codependent behavior. There's the paradoxical behavior where I believed I was doing right by my wife, but in fact I was putting too much pressure on her instead of taking responsibility for my own happyness.
There's the codependent behavior. There's the paradoxical behavior where I believed I was doing right by my wife, but in fact I was putting too much pressure on her instead of taking responsibility for my own happiness.
Yep, that is what I have read too. Being a devote husband and father and provider who is completely selfless... What kind of woman would want that? They'd rather a guy who is out drinking with his buddies all the time, having fun without the family, leaving them home to rot, no good solid career goals, etc... someone "fun." Or, better yet, have kids with the devote father with a good career, collect child support from him, get free time from the kids by "allowing" him partial custody, and then go out and have fun, the best of all worlds! Think I'm a little bitter?
I am with you brother. Mine doesn't even want to work.
H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6 S-9,8,8,6,4 S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15 EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16 PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16 XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16 Finally moving forward...
