I just read through your original thread, and I have to say it really inspired me. I don't know if that inspiration is a good thing or a bad thing because I am truly fearful of any hope I put within myself. I have fought hard to save my marriage in the past year, but I've realized how I did it all wrong, and now my H tends to put some of that blame back on me. After he had his A, he told me I was not strong enough to handle it, therefore wants to leave. The way that you described your H's actions in your original thread really remind me of my own H. I just hope I will come out the other side like you did. I hope my H comes out of his fog. For now, I am trying my best to take care of me, although sometimes it is SO difficult! I was thinking about reading the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, but maybe it's not the best time for me to read it, as it may give me some of that hope that I am so afraid of.
Thank you for posting your story. It truly was a breath of fresh air.
I just want to clarify that I am not stereotyping men that are nice people. I am simply referring to a type of man that fits into several categories that I have read about. Unfortunately, those categories can lead to depression, low self esteem, and having As and failed Rs. I think the more we can understand why this is happening, and the more these men can identify these patterns in themselves, the sooner they can heal and make better choices for themselves.
Unbowed, ... You have really had me thinking more about this. Although now that I see there is more than one book, I am wondering if we are referring to the same one? Trying not to break board rules and title it here.
You asked what my 180s were that he noticed most. I think it was when I finally learned to DB more consistently--to create space for myself, GAL, and when I was thinking about moving on without him. Just overall detaching and focusing on me and kids. When I got upset and angry, or when I ignored him, it further justified in his mind that he didn't want to be with me. He could further point the finger and blame me for my behavior. When I left him alone and started to plan moving on without him, he then got scared of losing me and started to realize he missed me.
He also had to come to these conclusions himself. He did a lot Unbowed, you mentioned that you are a recovering nice guy and that your W may not be taking well to it, is that correct? Did you start your work after she started to ask for separation or before? Is there any possibility of an A with her? I think each of those things could have a different affect on her, depending on your sitch. I will read up on your thread as well!
-Blu
I want to back Blu on this. She is talking about a coined term "Nice Guy" based on a book. It describes men who seek approval from others for their happiness and spend their life trying to make others (mostly women) happy under the mistaken belief that their needs and desires will be met if they please others.
But even Nice Guys as I've defined act differently. My Nice Guy behavior I believe helped lead to my wife losing respect for me and then ultimately any intimate desire for me. She withdrew all sex and even touching, kissing, and really any sign of love for me, although she did not seek to leave the relationship. Then after a year of MC, I got the "My light has gone out speech."
It was then that I happened to stumble on the book we're talking about, which changed my whole perspective on my part in the relationship. Blu, I am talking about the same book you are. I am working feverishly on fixing my nice guy tendencies. It's super hard after years, and years of habits and conditioning.
I don't believe, however, that being a Nice Guy leads to having As. I have never considered an A, even though I have not had sex with my wife in over a year, and the year before that, it was totally clear that she was not into it at all. Wouldn't let me kiss her or do anything other than quick intercourse.
Obviously Nice Guys do have A's, based on your experiences. Often, however, which has been confirmed by my participation in another forum for Nice Guys, it's the women that lose their desire for their Nice Guy partners that have EAs or PAs.
But, my guess on why Nice Guys have affairs, is that for them, sex is the ultimate sign of approval from a woman, which they seek. So your husbands were probably desperately looking for approval they felt they weren't getting at home. It likely wasn't even a tremendous desire or love for the OW, but the feeling of comfort they get from the approval.
Blu, in my case, there has not been a separation. But, the withdrawal of all emotional and physical affection and intimacy, lack of smiles, complete lack of interest in doing anything nice or thoughtful for me, has brought me to a crisis point. My wife seems willing to live in a roommate situation. I don't think that's a real marriage. It's not just about the sex, its the lack of all intimacy or tenderness. I don't think my W has had a PA, but I think an EA is possible.
It's pretty clear to me that my wife sees me a weak person for which she lacks respect. She has mentioned that all her friends tell her how lucky she is, and she feels guilty because she knows I'm a good person. But she won't make efforts to work on her intimacy issues with me.
With respect to those that are considering whether or not to read the book, I would recommend it. I told my wife I was reading it. She didn't ask to read it. And given the fact that she has taken my people pleasing and devotion to her as weakness, I'm glad she hadn't. Maybe my changes will feel more real if they seem less to her from a book. But if you are in a different position, and are truly committed to working with your man, or even just giving him the gift of insight that may really change his life I'd truly recommend it. It's also very hard for the man to read.
Finally, Blu, could you describe the difference between ignoring him (which made things worse) and leaving him alone (which helped). In my own 180s I struggle with the line between this.
Thank you for all your insights and service on this forum.
My nice guy was always helpful to everyone, friendly, likable, exhausted himself trying to make everyone happy.He "stuffed" his bad feelings and wouldn't communicate them, but I could see that he was unhappy for years....just couldn't draw it out of him. And then the bomb was dropped.
He is a middle child and son of a controlling father, and a mother whose only goal was to be a mom. He watched his mom complain about and sometimes even physically attack his dad growing up, but to everyone else (I didn't even know this until recently) his dad just was very loving to her and she basked in it. A "perfect" marriage. Just like ours.
I never spoke badly of him, or attacked him; never felt controlled, but I was co-dependent. At some point he felt he couldn't make me happy so, as he says, he stopped trying (not totally, as he was my H and felt responsible to "try"...still does as its his nature). But he shifted to trying to be everyman for everyone else. Especially other women. One in particular became his "best friend" (replacing me), but he liked others too. He gravitated to other women at social gatherings as he felt he didn't fit in with the guys (he grew up one of three boys). He gets a charge out of being the perfect man in their eyes...and its still not enough for him. He's tired, depressed and feels unappreciated. Unfulfilled. Unloved. He uses the word "failure" a lot.
I've noticed more recently, since our separation, that he is speaking to his brothers more. Forging friendships with men again. So maybe he's working on his issues. I know he's starting to work on his issues with his dad.
I'm very appreciative, Blu and Unbowed, for the book referral. I look forward to reading more of it. And learning.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
It's a good sign he is connecting with males. One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships. This puts a ton of pressure on their female partners, who really are not equipped to replace male friends. And if they're anything like me, they begin to lose touch of the masculinity, and then rely on their female partners to validate their masculinity. They believe they are better than most men because they are not a**holes and are not like the other selfish men. When their behavior doesn't lead to intimate success with women (like me) or their female relationships don't meet their needs they become resentful because they are such good guys. Hanging out with men can help take pressure off of their female partners and can remind the Nice Guy that they're a man, and can have fun being a man. Basically it's the GAL a Nice Guy needs to break his unhealthy relationship with women.
Crappy situations. We nice guys mean well, but we misplace our energy and then become exhausted.
Although I like to hang out with men, and make friends easy and can do the masculine thing, I too withdrew from male activities in service to my wife and her stressful career. The strange thing is that although that seems romantic, it doesn't seem to work, whether it be losing the woman's respect and desire (in my case), or our own masculine identity, confidence, and happiness (like it sounds like happened some of the significant others discussed in this thread).
For whatever it's worth, I believe most Nice Guys have absolutely no idea how destructive their behavior is to themself. That's why the book can be such a tough but necessary eye opener, If they're open to reading it.
One of the difficult thing about the Nice Guy syndrome is that we men, if we were born in the 70s or later, is we were raised to believe that devotion to women was what a modern man should do. Basically, the post feminist movement spurred a generation of men who felt that squashing their masculine energy would lead to utopian partnerships, great relationships with women (after all, don't all women want a nice guy), and would undo the millennial abuse of power men have perpetrated on women.
I totally believe in feminism and believe a lot more work is necessary by men to work on treating women as equals and with respect. But for us Nice Guys, our devotion to our women at the expense of our masculine selves ignores male/female biology. And hurts us and our female partners we love so much. It's a tough lesson to learn.
I am running out the door, but will be back tonight! Keep the convo going. This is good stuff.
Unbowed, I understand you and what you are saying here. It makes perfect sense and you describe my H perfectly as well! He is recovering but it is very difficult now because having an A and destroying our family forced him--and everyone around him--to question his entire identity!
-Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Im only just beginning the book, but what you say makes a lot of sense. My H, I think, feels more masculine helping women. He has been opening up more to me (I've been trying to encourage him to) and told me this weekend that I was a very independent woman, something Ive never felt I was. I don't ask for help much, though, and he used to complain about me always wearing an oversized hoody sweatshirt. Ive lost 45 lbs since BD and have started dressing much nicer and an early 180 was to never let him see me NOT looking my best. I think what drew him to his "ladyfriend" was her neediness and ultra-femininity. Always asking for his help. He seems to eat that up, as a nice guy.
But yes, it does seem that he is doing more with men now. He also calls our daughters much more often, when he used to always rely on me to keep him up to date on them, even while we've been separated. Something's going on in his head, anyway.
The list of nice-guy traits? He met them all. The not so good, not so nice traits? He met those too. Like being secretive, compartmentalizing, being dishonest and stuffing his emotions. It is spot on. I don't think he would be open to reading the book, so I don't know if it will just help me understand him better?
DBing is helping me to move forward, learning about MLC (I believe that is an issue) allowed me to have some understanding towards him. But the nice guy issues...that seems it would be more beneficial to him. Not sure how to get that to him, though. Any ideas?
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
In fact being a nice guy is the exact opposite of being respectful and connecting to women.
It's a man putting his own needs first, it's the ultimate control and master technique. The anthisis of what a modern man should do.
It's being 'nice' to get what you want, it creates distance not connection.
'Nice' in this context is tongue in cheek, it's the opposite of nice. It's nasty mean selfish territory whilst presenting a 'nice' front. It's gaslighting and smoke and mirrors and highly manipulative behaviour. It's saying one thing and doing another, whilst grinning look at me I am so 'nice'.
It's highly codependent and unpleasant because it presents as 'nice'. Nice is pyrrhic in this. Most 'nice' guys and gals won't come to that conclusion about themselves until they have to.
Nice guys are toe rags with a sweet smile. And if you tell them they are a nice guy then they may project and rage at you.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Nice Vanilla. I think that I was always a nice guy to gain attraction from other woman. Soften them up just for the sport of it.
I remember that I used to treat all of my close female friends as though they were my girlfiends, hugging and holding them close even though I had a girlfriend. Thinking about it, I never did it because I was strong and confident, I gained confidence when i got a smile from a pretty girl - i always used to make sure that I had pretty friends around me, due to low self-esteem.
I'm now starting to take a long look at myself in the mirror, never used to, cos I never liked what i saw.
Just cos things are going right, doesn't mean that they were always wrong.
In fact being a nice guy is the exact opposite of being respectful and connecting to women.
It's a man putting his own needs first, it's the ultimate control and master technique. The anthisis of what a modern man should do.
It's being 'nice' to get what you want, it creates distance not connection.
'Nice' in this context is tongue in cheek, it's the opposite of nice. It's nasty mean selfish territory whilst presenting a 'nice' front. It's gaslighting and smoke and mirrors and highly manipulative behaviour. It's saying one thing and doing another, whilst grinning look at me I am so 'nice'.
It's highly codependent and unpleasant because it presents as 'nice'. Nice is pyrrhic in this. Most 'nice' guys and gals won't come to that conclusion about themselves until they have to.
Nice guys are toe rags with a sweet smile. And if you tell them they are a nice guy then they may project and rage at you.
V
Wow, Vanilla...I have no words to express my thanks. The coin has just majorly dropped for me on something that's been rattling around in my mind for *months*.
I always got on like a house on fire with my MIL. We are quite similar in lots of ways (we're both very strong, do everything types), and we both have a tremendous amount of respect for each other. I can see why my H was drawn to me.
But when I couldn't keep all of that up (I became unwell), and needed help and support from my H...well, that was when he started going off the rails. And that eventually led to his As.
So I've come to realise that H had put me on a pedestal. Like he (and his whole family) have done - and still do - with his own mother. And then blamed and vilified me when I couldn't live up to that.
They're essentially both unrealistic viewpoints (and very sexist at that, as well). And importantly they are very much two sides of the same coin.
Thank you. No words to express how utterly grateful I am for this insight.
