Summary of last thread: M'd 21 years S11 D9 10/15 W filed OFP against me, in place for 1 year 12/15 I started D process I offered MC repeatedly W randomly voiced an interest in R from BD/OFP to 02/16 02/16 W decided not interested, I filed D 05/16 D should be finalized soon W has history of abuse in her past W projecting her past onto me W stuck with "child mentality" I "rescued" her Codependence both ways
I am having a he// of a time moving on, really stuck and need to get unstuck.
I asked this in the last thread, but it was over 100 posts, so I'll post again here.
There has to be someone on here who knows but isn't sharing... How many spouses actually return? The odds have got to be much higher for people on this forum than the general public, with the 180's and LRT's and all that. % of WAS? % of WW? % of MLC?
Not sure if you're going to get an answer, man. Most People don't stick around long enough to let us know how things turned out.
I will say this, though:
If you follow the program, regardless of what happens with your M, you will come out of this a stronger person. You'll be ready to take on life head-on and be ready for your next successful R, whether that be with your current spouse or someone new.
I want to let you know, though, that there are many DBers that have made it to the piecing level. LiM, NYgal and I would all fall under that heading, but there are countless others that have come and gone.
There are DBers that I would consider successful that are not, or not right now, in relationships with their WWs or WAWs or Hs.
Trumpet, Azzork, and TimR would all be examples of people who have followed the program and have become the men they want to be.
OFP, there are so many things I want to say...you have a ton of questions, that I am sorry will likely go unanswered. that is going to be part of your ability to move forward...living with uncertainty. I get how hard that is, believe me...I do.
The anger that comes through is thick. vengeance, proving something to her, PAYBACK...those are all retaliations...is that going to help you move forward. Even if you were able to destroy her in some form of revenge, would that make you feel any better about you as a man. would that help your children grow to become the best people they can be. No I suspect it wouldn't. it would never heal that damage you have in your heart right now. This is a woman that you have loved for the better part of your life, right...how will that help you?
Time will help you, but not by itself. it starts with learning to accept that you are not worthy of the treatment that you've received. You must learn to accept that. period. forget the blame, that does not matter...move past that. self-love will follow. you will learn all those areas of you have become an imperfect mate yourself...and learn to improve on those areas of your life. Really that is part of the personal growth aspect of this wonderful community that I love the most. Whether we win our wives back or not, becoming better men who love themselves so thoroughly that our spouses no longer matter....that is the brass ring!
a great example...you have written about how you feel your wife is stupid. do you actually believe this...is that how you genuinely feel towards this woman you have professed to love. I would bet that sense of superiority has oozed out towards her over the years...is that a loving position or would it come through as a gesture that would help build her up? I am sure as you look back to your marriage you will find other issues. none of us here could do a thorough search and find nothing, none of us. there have been more than a few times I found myself bawling my eyes out at ways that I did not show enough respect and kindness to my wife. it takes time, you will get there if you chose to.
I am pointing it out, because well, it is something that if you need to do, in order to have a successful relationship in the future, you will have to learn to accept your partner for who they are. PERIOD. love them. So what if my wife cannot help my 14 year old with his homework, that is not something that makes her less worthy to be the target of my affection, does it?
Sorry if you feel like I've come here to beat you up a bit...I am rather blunt from time to time.
The other issue that I want to mention (again) is the decision to forgo or minimize the GAL. you have spent a ton of effort belaboring the injustice of your marriage (I call it score-keeping) and you really need to look at where that is getting you, it is not helping you let go of the situation and move forward. One of the great parts about GAL is to help in this...really it does.
example, I have joined a roller derby team a few months ago, twice a week, for three hours I do not think of my wife. I think of what I am doing, improving my health, improving the new relationships that are there within the league, AND HAVING A GOOD TIME. 6 hours of my week, free of wife. there are other times I can do this, with soccer practices, school board meetings, volunteering at the kids schools, going out with friends, shooting with my brothers, guitar lessons, whatever...they are all ME TIME. they are all times I can focus on improving myself, learning to focus energy towards being complete and not worrying about my wife.
These are my experiences...and my opinions hinge not only on my personal experiences, but by having watched countless others go through this exact same struggle. The ones that find their way the fastest are those that learn to love themselves first and foremost. The ones that give living their lives a real effort, showing themselves love and compassion and trying to forge lives from the ashes.
Lastly, this is a bit of a follow up to something I typed you the other day. I don't honestly think your wife is a true narcissist. I do believe she is behaving that way.
I think that we all are capable of these qualities, as well as many other thoughts that would be considered wrong (for lack of a better word) by conventional standards. I have always sort of believed that we have good and bad traits within each and every one of us. it wasn't until I read something yesterday by someone who used to post on this sigh A LOT. she is someone I respect very much and added to my conviction on the matter.
it is our ability to confront those thoughts and behaviors that is what I consider mature. to be able to withstand on acting on those thoughts or acting on your base impulses that makes us complete.
a man or woman who is going through a midlife crisis is trying to void what caused their issue and in effect rebelling against what they think or used to know as right or wrong...they are depressed, unhappy...there must be a reason for that...and they have not accepted it could be them. So yes, if they have been struggling with this crisis for some time, it is very reasonable to expect they are acting narcissistic...just as we can witness many of these behavioral traits in children every day.
have you ever watched an 8 year old lie right to your face for something they and You clearly know they did. They lie anyway, they are rebelling against you. Or how they start to cry to get you to change your mind about something...the tears are clearly bullshit. how about a child who acts super nice and then on a switch changes to irate when they don't get their way. does any of this sound familiar. the same could be said for a person in MLC. they are acting against what they should know as right or wrong, good or bad, up or down. they are basically set back to the time of their trauma when these behaviors were to be established. instead they created coping mechanisms to help them deal with their pain.
I am clearly oversimplifying the complexity of the whole developmentally stunted issue, I just wanted to point out that likely your wife is NOT a narcissist...just acting that way. and yes, I did want to point out that she is projecting that on you because she does not want to feel that way about herself.
What does all this mean...really nothing. it changes nothing about what you need to be doing...that is Focusing your energy on you instead of her and her behavior. as long as she is not interacting with you, gives you an opportunity - unabated to keep that focus on you. For your IC sessions...ask him/her to keep the conversation on you. WHY has this been such a huge punch in the gut. work on your feelings, work on your behavior, work on your development and growth. If your IC doesn't want to, I would question what they are really working towards.
so for lists, we like lists around here....
you could make a list of those things in your marriage you thought you came up short on...to work on understanding better.
you could make a list of qualities about yourself that you like, don't like and would like to improve upon
you could make a list of things you'd like to do in life, short term, long term, one time
you could make a list of things you want to do with your kids.
get where i'm going at...start moving forward with goals.
GAL list...you want to get unstuck...get out there and start doing for you. Life is all about choices...chose to stay put or move forward...get yourself unstuck, no one else can do it for you, ok?
so, sorry so long. again, I don't need any responses. I just want for your to look at why you are so resistant to moving yourself forward?
Zephyr... I actually honestly 100% love your long posts, they are awesome!
Since my last post yesterday, I stopped and started thinking... I am venting nothing but negatives on this site.... Why? Is that all I am? So, you hit the nail on the head with your reply. The proverbial 2x4 to my noggin.
In my IC's defense, she pushes me hard to stop letting W "drive my bus" or "renting a room in my head to her." I missed last week appt because of mediation. This last session I steered to be totally about W. Understanding helps bring closure. I repeat in my head "I didn't break her, I can't fix her." Then I question if she is really broken, or just cruel. I read a little more, yep she is broken.
The OFP, the horrible things she said to get it, you have no idea what that does to a guy's self esteem. She says I r@ped her the entire M!!! In her own handwriting! 2 days prior to writing that, she was venting about stuff that bottlered her, but said the S was great. Why? She tells social services I am a good father, while trying to keep my kids from me. She files for an OFP and then says she is interested in reconciling. I offer MC, she says she's not interested in reconciling.
I am at my parents house, no money, no toys. She has the house and every dime I make going into it, plus she's out spending money so there's none left for me to buy gas to get to work, or checks will bounce.
I walk around and she pops in my head. Did I love her? Do I blame her? Or feel sorry for her? Please get out of my head!
As I stated to my IC, I'll put here also.... All the things that are going right in my life, I don't need help with them, I therefore don't talk about them, they just "are". One thing I think will really kick start my healing is getting my house back. Projects are my passion, always have been. They vary from home repairs, home upgrades, landscaping, vehicle repairs, modifying toys for the kids, building mechanical stuff, etc. My parents home is not a place for that, it is clutter stacked to the ceiling everywhere you look and you can't find anything. I don't have my toys, but hope to soon. The toys I have, the weather has been crappy. I was planning to get out this weekend but the weather is crappy again.
I am an introvert. I do not have plans to change that. I don't think I can change that. I don't mind being alone. Unfortunately the codependency thing is right there with it, my own constant internal battle.
I talk about hate, revenge, her being stupid... But every step of the way, in my actions, I take the high road (agreed to OFP and offered her the house, offered MC, filed D only to protect myself and bring closure, I haven't spread rumors about her even though her friends have spread them about me, I say nothing bad about her to the kids even though she is saying stuff about me to them), and I am proud of the actions I have taken. I am not proud of my feelings.
The OFP, the horrible things she said to get it, you have no idea what that does to a guy's self esteem.
I feel for you. I've been through the wringer with my wife. At first she said I was a psychopath. The MC put a stop to that. Then, I was a narcissist. I asked her if a narcissist would be a good dad (she says I'm an awesome dad). She said the reason I was a good dad was because I wanted everyone to see that I'm good dad so that they'd shower me with accolades. Then, I asked her who "everyone" is because not many people really see me being a good dad (it's not like being a good dad is a public spectacle). She came up with some pile of BS answer and then I gave up.
So, the point of that is you're not in this alone.
I made many lists. Things I have done wrong is already listed. But at the time of making the lists, I did not have the insight I do now about the causes. I guess I could go back over the lists, but sounds like reliving the nightmare, so I choose to not go there.
Is she a woman I loved? That's one of the questions. Or just the shell of one? Her true colors peeked out only once in a while, until BD and then they came out? She pretended to be something she was not? She resented me for the role she chose and thought I forced upon her?
The blame doesn't feel good... Whether pointed at her or myself. It feels like poison, as my IC said, it is like taking poison hoping the other person will die.
The self realization has caused countless hours of crying.... Especially the first 4 months, when I searched only for my contributions to the failure of the M, before I found this site. This is when I bought "codependence no more." I actually bought "his needs her needs" but never actually stated reading that one, no R to work on in the immediate future anyway.
Ironic that my self respect is actually one of the things W hated (or envied?) about me.
More example of my actions... She is posting bad stuff about me on Facebook. I have never mentioned anything about her on mine, even indirect. Even with all the hurt, I know it will go away, so I have offered MC all along regardless of the frustration I have felt. I don't ever want her to know I feel bitter. I don't really want anyone to know I feel bitter. So I vent it here instead. I should probably go back to venting in my own journal instead of here.
More irony... What I post here is different than what I talk to others about. I tell friends she left me, what she did feels wrong, but I truly feel sorry for her. I was discussing this with my father just last night. He is black and white on right/wrong. I told him that W had issues she hadn't dealt with that caused some of this, it's not her fault. He was not 100% buying into it, so I stopped.
The OFP, the horrible things she said to get it, you have no idea what that does to a guy's self esteem.
I feel for you. I've been through the wringer with my wife. At first she said I was a psychopath. The MC put a stop to that. Then, I was a narcissist. I asked her if a narcissist would be a good dad (she says I'm an awesome dad). She said the reason I was a good dad was because I wanted everyone to see that I'm good dad so that they'd shower me with accolades. Then, I asked her who "everyone" is because not many people really see me being a good dad (it's not like being a good dad is a public spectacle). She came up with some pile of BS answer and then I gave up.
So, the point of that is you're not in this alone.
OMG, that's sounds way too familiar! My W when she accused me of being a narcissist, said that I act differently around others to fake being a good guy. Are some people prewired with this script?
Deflecting blame away from themselves... The true narcissist behavior?
Here are notes I took from after a meeting with my IC back in april, after W met with my IC... this is what I referred to in my previous thread that "set me back". I was detaching fairly well, partially by going through the anger stage, and this conversation put me right back to "feeling sorry for her", and the "why" stage:
IC says W was searching for why she wasn’t happy. W wanted to spend time with me thinking that was the solution. Then wanting to do things away from home thinking that was the solution. Then leaving me thinking that was the solution. Her brain was all over the place, feeling a deep love one minute and then struggling with her lack of happiness the next. This also relates to her codependence, thinking I was the one thing that should have given her happiness. W built up a lot of blame toward me when she wasn't happy, not realizing her lack of happiness was not my fault, but that happiness needed to come from within herself.
Now that she has no one to blame, she will be forced to realize the problem and deal with it. Not only with emotions, but with finances, cleaning the house, managing her time, not relying on me to make those decisions for her. Having the divorce finalized is the only way for her to fully get into that healing path.
IC told me W is likely to grow (emotionally), she'll likely stop blaming me for her problems and actually own them as her own, and then realize her mistake and what she left behind.
IC went on to say that usually when relationships go through this phase, the person being left (LBS) throws in a grenade and runs as fast as they can, making it impossible to ever be back together once this growth period occurs, and they then miss out on an incredible opportunity. If I avoid that grenade, makes it actually possible and more likely that she will come around. That means being civil to her, show her I can have a good and happy life without her, be a great father, not throw grenades at any time regardless of what she says or does.
But IC says that there is absolutely no way that will be any time soon, it will likely be after at least 1 year, maybe 2, and definitely after the divorce is finalized. It will take that long for the blaming to die, for the old relationship to die, allowing us both to establish all aspects of our own life, allowing us to later come together from a position of strength. If we were to try again now, it would not work out, as the old patterns would immediately come back.
IC said W’s actions, like avoiding the sight of me at all costs, her refusal for any interaction, her looking away when I saw her at the school, her looking down when she sees people I know, is all because of her shame of what she has done, not that she is trying to be cold. All comments she has made to mom are her trying to justify in her own mind leaving me.
Tonight I cried.... I saw one of the projects S11 has been working on, he built with my dad I believe last summer, from junk, and has continued to add to it... it is S11's pride and joy. There it sits.... here I am.... where is he? I miss my boy!!!
I just came up with an analogy.... Tying together the pieces of my puzzle. My W has a mold made for me... the mold is actually her abusive father. She keeps trying to force me into that mold, into the label. She saw a trait here or there that sounded like her father, close enough to stuff me into the mold. But I didn't fit the mold. No matter how hard she tried.
This why when S11 told her I'm not blaming her, she cried... Cuz I don't fit the mold. She wants me to fit to justify her leaving me. It causes confusion.
Part of what prompted this, reading about MLC and the confusion.... Dang it, I'm trying to stuff her into a mold? Anyway, the confusion is there. I hear it from my kids.
Ok, I'm gonna stop now before Zepher gets the 2x4 out again...
Let the sadness come through. I know in our society we as men are not supposed to show or feel sadness. But I am learning this to not be true.
Now when you are with your boy, feel the polar opposite. Bask in the joy of the moments you are with s11. It is energizing and can help in the moments such as you are experiencing now.
May you have a peaceful night and look forward to the joy you will experience when you see s11 next.
Me 46 Former W 46 D19 D7 BD Feb 2016 WAW moves out 4/16/16 D final 6/1/2017
It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
ofp, you will have time to deal with all of these incredibly intense, and sometimes debilitating feelings. please do not think that i want you to bypass that. facing those fears, disappointment, hurts and confusion is part of your maturation...your journey.
I hope you are able to get out and do your long awaited activity, if not I hope you find something to do to enjoy your weekend.
last thing, i wanted to mention to you...this is an observation of wisdom from others that I wanted to bring up to you...not using your kids as info gatherers or to discuss thier mom with.
I really hope that some one who is more experienced with that aspect of separation csn chime in with experience.
i will be away for the weekend...so i will have my fingers crossed for you.
I have always been emotionally open... I feel a little embarrassment when coworker see me cry, or the general public, but I let it out freely... So I am pretty good there. But thank you for your concern.
I am doing better with the kids, but still feel a little anxious. I "think" that will go away once I am back in my house, someplace comfortable, where we can tackle activities together.
Zephyr, yeah, I am trying to get through this journey. I think sometimes I am focusing on it too much, other times I'm not allowing it to pass or I'm making it worse by fighting it.
The kids are bringing the stuff up, not me. I try to avoid the subject unless answering a direct question from them, and I try to keep the answers to them clear and neutral. Like the example of S11 getting blamed by others in school, and he brings up W saying that I am blaming her. W was not the subject, S11 and classmates was. I am not sure if he is trying to help me, trying to help her, or struggling with his own understanding of the D. I think I am doing OK at that part, not perfect, but OK.
It is bitter cold, so I won't be getting out for my long awaited activity... Dang it! Tomorrow I plan to visit a friend I haven't seen in a couple years, help him out with some of his projects.
Have you got DR and read it yet. It will help with a road map for your journey. I know you asked on my thread if it was worth getting since D was happening so fast. Not sure if you saw my reply, but please get it. It is for you, it will guide you, and the key is to heal yourself and become the whole person only a fool would leave.
It's a difficult journey, but with the road map, you will be more likely to arrive at the destination regardless of the bumps in the road.
Have a great day my friend, enjoy your time with your s11, and try to stay in the moment.
Me 46 Former W 46 D19 D7 BD Feb 2016 WAW moves out 4/16/16 D final 6/1/2017
It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
No, I haven't gotten DR yet, was pondering on it. But I haven't changed my Amazon login yet to get W off of it, probably would be best if she didn't see the purchase.
I did see your reply on your thread... I have been keeping up with your thread, just didn't have anything good to post.
I haven't heard back from the person I was going to do my activity with today... And it is freezing cold, but I went out alone for a while. Strange, anything that gets my adrenaline going a little brings back the anxiety. I'm going to talk a brisk walk shortly and burn some of it off.
Another thing I noticed, this activity, even though it is super high paced, high adrenaline, and somewhat physical, still allows enough brain bandwidth to do "thinking," always has.. In fact I may have always done the most thinking while doing this. There's just no escape, LOL!
I cooked a burger for myself on the grill.... First time cooking in years.. Actually felt kind of good. I really miss my live-in cook, that's for sure! But, I know I will make it, I know I will figure this out one way or another.
I don't see the kids again til Tuesday, haven't seen them since last Tuesday. Makes me sad. I get Tuesday's and every other weekend. Still better than the first couple months, it was only every other weekend.
No, I haven't gotten DR yet, was pondering on it. But I haven't changed my Amazon login yet to get W off of it, probably would be best if she didn't see the purchase.
Just chiming in, but if you setup a new Amazon account, they will offer a 1-month free trial of Prime and you can still get the 2-day delivery on the book. I just got mine and about halfway through it, and while not ALL topics are relative, it's been highly informative and I'd definitely recommend it.
Just remember to cancel the prime membership on the new account immediately or you'll get charged for 1-years worth of Prime the day the trial expires.
I actually had the account all changed over already... I changed a bunch of stuff within the first week of W filing the OFP to protect myself, but just didn't remember what all I had done in the blur that was my life at the time.
I went back to your first thread and started reading your entire story. I was going to post in your thread, but my story may be more geared toward me, and you are over 100 posts and need to start a new thread, so I'll keep it here.
From your first page, I felt a definite connection between your story and mine. But, I waited way too long to start looking into the issues, I ignored them and hoped they would go away.
My W never stopped working, not for very long anyway. She took a very short maternity leave for both kids, like only a few days, and returned back to work. Between kids, she quit one job and started a new one shortly after, probably only a month or 2 without work. I had gotten laid off from my job a couple times, money was tight, and at times she needed to work for us to make ends meet. (yes, after all the hate I spewed on here about her, I need to give her some credit!!).
5 years ago, I was bored to death in my job, and got a new one. It was a super easy transition into the new job, the pay was much better, but more hours. I got pay raises rapidly allowing her to finally start cutting back on her hours. I was happy that she had done so much to get us to where we were, I told her she could work whatever she wanted to work, or not at all even. She wanted to continue to work. She never did want a career, never developed any skills for work, never accepted promotions. Her job was just a way to get out of the house and get a little extra money.
OK, back to our R. As I have already wrote, I did in fact resent my W. For a lot of reasons I have already listed. Her lack of self respect I think was the biggest one. She had no interest in anything, her career, taking care of the house, and especially not taking care of herself. She didn't know how, and never tried. She thought diet pills and not eating breakfast and lunch would help, eating piles of carbs for supper was just fine.
What is interesting, and I haven't mentioned yet (I think), our sex life never did drop off. It was weekly, right up to a week before BD. It was experimental, fun, and we were very open with each other about the subject. I won't get into any more details, but she said every time how much she loved it. The only odd thing, she said out of the blue one time that "there's more to life than sex." I replied with "there is?" But it didn't change anything. My IC made a guess that she was "doing what she thought I wanted to do." I'm not sure on this one. Yes, this is the same person who said I r@ped her through our entire M!
The frustrations for me continued to build, I was the one withdrawing. In hindsight I think for most of the M I was withdrawn because of her depression, lack of affection, her unhappiness, too much arguing, and what I noticed the last few years is just how much she twisted what I said into something completely different than what I intended. What this meant is that when I wasn't withdrawn, I was irritable. I had expectations, they weren't very high, I feel even a child could have met them, and she couldn't measure up. She didn't try. I am sure it caused her to resent me.
I didn't seek the help or the reading material. I was busy with life, super busy, not enough hours in the day to do what I wanted to do. I am not sure of the impact of my withdrawal. I think she wanted help, but wasn't asking for it. I think the expectations were overwhelming for her. I stepped up, and then rubbed her nose in it with a nasty text "I fixed the bill issue in 5 minutes, from my phone. With all the time you spend on your phone you couldn't handle it?" She then said handling everything was getting overwhelming. That was more frustrating, because like I said, she was playing constantly on her phone.
Another interesting thing, all through the M, we would have talks about everyday stuff, very good talks. About the kids, about the projects we were working on, about goals in life, about finances. Every day! It was only when we talked about M stuff that she twisted things I said.
Funny you mention the joint accounts... we were intertwined in every way imaginable. Even today with the OFP in place we have a joint checking and a joint email account. The D will separate the accounts, finally, and she will for the first time have to deal with her own finances. It will be a good learning experience for her, but I worry she is going to end up seriously in debt and not know what to do. She took out a new CC since BD, she has made 2 payments to it in 6 months, so she's not off to a very good start. I was just relieved she didn't bring it up as joint debt in the D.
W brought up that I never said she was pretty... I'm sure I already posted that.
I see you too had the lack of affection going on. Amazing how lonely that can make a person feel. For my W I would hug her, hold her, etc... and she wouldn't even notice or acknowledge. I would ask her if she noticed, she would then pay attention, say she noticed, and appreciated it, and go back to whatever she was doing. It felt very cold.
W did do good at shopping. Too good? She'd ask me if I thought of anything we needed. She'd handle it all. She'd even grab clothes for me if she noticed I was low on something. I am going to miss that!
My W made comments a few weeks before BD that she feels like she is just there to take care of the family. I made a comment to her that I wondered if we were M'd, or just friends. But I also told her our friendship is what I valued most in our M.
Zephyr, I'll keep reading in your post, but I wonder something.... Why is your W the WAS? Are you sure YOU aren't the WAS? You doing GAL is showing a lack of interest in her? You stepping back and letting her have her independence is showing a lack of interest in her? She has an expectation of your duties, and you are trying to back out of them? I don't know, maybe I'm still not understanding what a "healthy" relationship looks like. I understand codependency being bad. But having a life that is fully intertwined, and both partners liking it that way, I think CAN work. Withdrawing from that pattern without notice sounds cold?
I have managed to detach here and there for short periods. But why is it that when I am reading anything, I have 2 personalities thinking at the same time? One is me, the other is W.
This time I was reading MWD BD FB page (recommended to Zephyr by Vanilla).
Another similarity to Zephyr's story. I had been pushing away from the M for years, especially last July. My W posted on FB a very sweet and heartfelt excitement for a trip we were going to do in August. When I saw it I felt terrible, she seemed to love me to dearly, I wasn't sure I wanted to stay with her.
I have read your posts and I feel for you. You seem so hurt and angry and remorseful. It is so hard right now, when you have all these feelings and your unsure which are the " right " ones. But beneath it all stands out a man that is quite reflective and insightful.
I wish I had advice to give you. Its just a really painful process that takes time to sort out. I know how hard it is to want answers and explanations. Unfortunatly there really aren't any because relationships are challenging. Just as Learning how to accept something we don't want is.
Every time someone says something complimenting me, it is a huge boost to the severely broken ego. I have been talking to many people, they all make me feel good about myself. There's only one person in the world who really seemed to have an intent on bringing me down... The one person I cherished more than anyone else in the world. Why did I give her all that power? And I honestly feel it was intentional, because she was jealous. Jealous that I was happy, smart, stable, while she was self-doubting, depressed, unable to accomplish anything. She tried to bring me down to her level.
OMG, I just realized how my life resembles the saying "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
J, you are right about me questioning which feelings are right. I think at the end of the day, they are all the "right" feelings. The struggle is what to do with them. Do I stand? Do I hope or try to repair what once was? Do I move on?
On Sandi's "the star is inside you" it talks about whether you are "done"... Not really something that needs to be decided? I don't know.
Just found out my W was out of state this weekend... A weekend she has the kids. Second time she has done that to go have fun. But leaves the kids with her mom instead of letting me have them. Nice! What a selfish spoiled brat!
Nothing to really do with the feelings. Just feel them and let them move pass. Maybe start working on healing your broken ego? On trying to repair yourself first. How can you take the focus off of your wife and back on you? This might need to be first priority.
The truth is we are all flawed. We all have dysfunctions and different backgrounds and different coping styles. We all bring both good and bad to our relationships. I think we do change and grow as well. Your wife has flaws but it's nice to see you recognize and miss some of the good Qualities about her too. Again, I think all you can do now is not get too absorbed in her and make this about you. Easy to say. I know.
I agree with you that wife should have let you have kids when she was away. Any way to prevent this from happening again? Could you communicate this to her in a nice way ?
I really can't communicate to her at all. Custody isn't completely straight yet either, so I'm asking yet again for right of first refusal if she is away from them more than 12 hours, which I am sure she was.
A cousin called me. She talked to one of W's friends about being friends on FB. This friend tells my cousin no, because W told her not to, because somehow info keeps getting back to me. Um, if you don't want people to know something, why would you post it on FB in the first place? W and her friends aren't too bright!
I pick up the kids, first thing they tell me is about their mom's trip out of state.... They listed the "friends" that were there, but the kids specifically say the name of POM (potential OM), and say he wasn't there. I told them someone called me, said they didn't know I had the kids this weekend, I told them I didn't, they told me about seeing the pic of W on FB. So, I show them a pic from FB, POM is there. Why would she lie to the kids when her friends are posting pics of it on FB?
I told the kids I had no interest in knowing what she is doing, but if she's not going to be with them I would love more time with them.... Then I realize a few minutes later, maybe she's testing what I am watching on FB? But I wasn't even watching! Oh great! Then again, I don't know that she is smart enough set a trap like that.
I explained to the kids that people are telling me stuff, and I actually ask them to stop telling me, and that what she is doing doesn't matter to me.
But wow is this just gut wrenching. Yeah, I get it, we're not together anymore, she can do what she wants. Yep, supposed to be detaching. Yep, she may not come back. The OFP I think I could forgive, though it's going to need some explaining. But if there is OM, I won't forgive that, ever. Why do I have to keep hearing this stuff from my kids?
It still doesn't feel right being with the kids, every time I see them reminds me of what used to be. To hear the hurtful things she says and does. Her trying to limit my time with them and for what? Because part of her screwed up mentality thinks I am a monster to them? She knows and has said I am a good father, I just don't get it.
I love them, I would do anything for them. I miss my family!!!! I miss being able to pair up, to do things the 4 of us. And now I cry again, dang it!
In other news... I started reading "codependence no more" again. Also watched a couple videos about it. It was a little gut wrenching also. Did I do those things? The video kept using the term narcissist, over and over, like one has to be a narcissist and one a codependent. I didn't think that was a requirement, I thought there could be 2 codependent people.
The examples in the video talked about not allowing the other to do things. And when the codependent sets boundaries and says "I'm going to do it anyway", the narcissist goes crazy. Well, this thing happened. She told me last minute about the party I talk about in my first post. I told her I didn't like the idea, we had been arguing for days, the timing sucked. I went looking for her because I was suspicious.... Still am! She wasn't there. when she showed up, I told her we needed to get home. She says I screamed and called her names and kicked and punched my vehicle, that never happened, I stayed calm. I never did those things, ever. So, I played part of the role I guess, but she made the rest of my fitting the role up in her head... To a tee!
Self evaluation requires digging up skeletons... It [censored]! I'll continue on the path of self discovery no matter how painful it becomes.
Stupid question... Is there a such thing as loving yourself enough, respecting yourself enough, to not take back someone who didn't love you enough to not cause the devastation?
yes, there is such a thing. it is understanding that you are worth more than the abusive spouse treated you. it is not easy thing to do. it starts with acknowledging that you are worthy of more and willing to get it. seeing her actions for what they were and accepting that although you had faults, you did not deserve this treatment. I suggest once you are done with your current text you start.looking into other sources about getting out of these sorts of abusive relationships. she may not have ever struck you, but the scars are evident and you will carry marks for a long time.
I have a lengthy post for you...in response to your questions i will post it in the morning when I get to work...I ran out of time before I had to leave today, just needed a quick once over.
I understand how hard this is. In the beginning of my situation, I was consummed with the idea that there could be OP. It bothered me so much. And if I knew earlier, i think it would have made it so I didn't live in limbo quite so long. But now, i really don't care anymore. If that's the case, good for him. I know my value as a loyal person and if he cheated it devalues his character. It says nothing about me. I am now actually grateful that it was not thrown in my face.
My husband made up really bizarre lies as well. I don't know if he was lying to himself to justify his actions? But that no longer matters either because I know my truths. I also know my flaws.
it's so easy to diagnose our spouse as narcissistic, abusive, sociopathic, on the spectrum etc. We are looking for answers as to how they are capable of hurting us like this. It is also easy to use the abusive label. it is easy for them to use the abusive label on us. I think the truth is that everyone has some level of dysfunction and the nature of relationships just brings it out and intensifies it. None of us really go into our relationships truly prepared for how to recognize and deal with it when things start to go down hill.
Zues has a really good analogy regarding cards and abusive labels somewhere. I will try to find it and link it for you. Or maybe another poster knows where it is?
It can be so frusturating to hear the words " just work on you". What the hell does that mean? She's the one that left a path of destruction and destroyed a family and broke vows! But I think those words really just mean that no matter how angry you are, or unfair and irrational your spouse's actions are, you have no control over them. You do have control over yourself and how you will navigate through this though.
Zephyr, I'll keep reading in your post, but I wonder something.... Why is your W the WAS? Are you sure YOU aren't the WAS? You doing GAL is showing a lack of interest in her? You stepping back and letting her have her independence is showing a lack of interest in her? She has an expectation of your duties, and you are trying to back out of them? I don't know, maybe I'm still not understanding what a "healthy" relationship looks like. I understand codependency being bad. But having a life that is fully intertwined, and both partners liking it that way, I think CAN work. Withdrawing from that pattern without notice sounds cold?
ofp, Why am I here. I have spent a bit of time thinking about your questions and I have gone over a lot in my head. why is my wife the WAS / or whatever you want to call it...she is the one who has stopped sharing affection, intimacy, desire, passion and attention, she's the one asking for space, telling me she was not happy, that maybe she never loved me, that she didn't want to pretend anymore, that she doesn't know who she is, that she doesn't like who she has become, took her ring off...there are more things that I've heard over the last 5 years from her. her crisis to figure herself out continues. I understand it better now, but still all I can do is stop trying to fix her, show compassion and accept who she is and let her grind through it. That does not mean that I need to stop and wait for her to make that choice. I needed to start moving forward in my life, living how I want and need to in order to enjoy who I am, treating others the way I would like to be treated, and really to ‘become the man only a fool would leave’
I don't think that a life that is fully intertwined is necessarily healthy, even when both of us try to live that way. Look we have a HUGE, encompassing list of people on this board alone that are proof that, that kind of enmeshment just doesn't work long term - even leaving abusive childhoods out of the equation even (7 and 14 year marks are so common it is chilling). I read memes every day where love is all about being that close, and how wonderful and all that is - I love those sorts of meme's , but over a long time...I think that is how you lose you sense of self...and that is murder to a marriage.
you and I are givers, right? we give and give and give. our wives, well they are takers. over the years, our marriages have drained our self-worth, and our sense of who we are...and we not only allowed it, we embraced it as our sense of duty. That intertwined, enmeshment was not healthy. all it ever did was really created more resentment and anger. giving up that resentment is key to moving forward. giving up the expectations too and the anger should be goals to.
I know I keep hammering this home, but the gal is necessary for us to regain a foothold of who we are. some independence, who would not want a fairly independent woman who Chooses to spend her lives with us and us to share ours with them.
be careful with the concept of 'letting them'.... our wives are full grown women who have every right to choose. you don't get to say what they can chose and what they cannot. maybe that is something to work on, understanding that two grown adults can live together in matrimony and still free-willed individuals, who with respect each other’s choices and can still share lives and love through compromise and sharing. I would like for that in my life very much and really that is the blueprint for how I chose to live.
As for GAL (again) we use these activities to fill our lives with joy and excitement, with interpersonal relationships, with experiences outside our everyday grind. can these be shared with wife, he'll ya why not. if they want to, otherwise nothing wrong with going and doing your own thing and her doing her own thing...as long as your activities are not violating each other's boundaries than why not (obviously the full other end is to spend no time together which is just as disastrous). you bring energy and stories to revel about back to the home.
my grandmother told me 20 years ago...and although it has stuck with me...it didn't click till more recently, "you marry for better or worse, not breakfast lunch and dinner" it is more true to me now than when she said it.
as far as me doing this without notice. my wife and I have discussed being more active outside of the home...she has encouraged my activities, including roller derby, gaming groups, going out with my brothers more, guitar, fitness and the school board stuff. we have done many of these and other things together, too.
I believe there needs to be a healthy compromise. one author list 15 hours a week of couples time. is that too high, too low, idk...I have tried to use that as a target number at least...and it has been like that for well over a year now. I am her greatest cheerleader in all that she does. as for interest, I encourage her cultivating hobbies, schooling, activities, work, events, health-exercise, clubs, whatever. I sit and am attentive to her daily unload that she needs, put everything else aside and engage her during these talks, whether it is 10 minutes or longer, so be it. I remember a time...a long time where I could not stand that as soon as I came home from work (10-12 hour day) she wanted to spill all that crap on me and I couldn't handle it, because I was not getting the reciprocation. That was me, not meeting her basic needs (just one little example).
there are lots of books out there on the needs of our spouses...I've read a couple of them and really tried to focus on those things I know she needs. if anything, I have errored on the side of too much attention to her needs.
I also have continued to spend a ton of time with my kids one on one and as a family. Trying to keep a healthy compromise.
so back to the original question. am I the WAS at this time, hmmm...not sure. in a healthy relationship, continued detachment and moving further away emotionally and physically to the point of eradication of actual connection would certainly indicate that i were, but that is nowhere near my goal. I am giving my wife the time and the space to actually chose if she wants to stay as my wife. maybe that does not come through in my posts because I focus so much on me and my journey.
I am not going to pretend that maybe there isnt a bit of truth that I AM starting to figure a way out, trying to decide if I’ve had enough. I try not to let that dictate my path right now. I have certainly given my relationship my full attention for a long time. I have made changes to my behavior to my wife, my kids, myself and just in general. I live a more full life than I ever did...despite all of this, hope still fades of a mutually beneficial relationship, and there are things still missing, pieces of a healthy relationship that may never return. There are times that I simply want to be done with trying. The day before mother’s day, my wife railed on my son for over 5 minutes because of a bandage had come off of his hand. She asked what he was doing, he told her drawing (he was upstairs, it was later…basically bed time). She railed about wasting time instead of going to bed, about wasting money with the bandage coming off. So here is the deal…he was working on her mothers day card and when drawing the tegaderm bandage kept getting caught and rubbing off. I just wanted to pack my kids up and leave. I was not protecting them. Here is a little boy, 11 year old trying to make a card for his mother and she is railing on him, full out berating him and him standing there, crying, taking it. I spent the next ½ hour putting him to sleep and then bawling my eyes out in anger over my impotence to do anything to help him while it went on. So ya, maybe there is confusion on my part too…and I’ve typed this quickly so i am sure I am all across the map.
I hope that gives a little more insight to me and my path. Sorry, I hate the "sermon"-ly feel for how these come off. I hate internet conversations...can't express sentiment the same as in person, overshare on one piece and not really explain what you are looking for on the others. some of my answers do come off as defensive (or even a little crazy) so I apologize for that, I need to reread them and let simmer in
I will start a new thread soon, things have been pretty busy for me.
Zephyr, J, I will get back to your posts in a bit here...
When I got done with work today, I was watching a video on youtube on codependency. I'm looking for ways to deal with it, grow, become a better person. But one video on the side caught my eye. Ross Rosenberg, "a codependent CANNOT be a Narcissist"
Obviously, the title is something that caught my eye because my W accused me of being a narcissist. Self doubt about if she was right, a little scared, a little shame, did I have some of the traits? This video blew me away. I finished watching it, and I have never felt such a sudden release of guilt/shame/fear all at once in my life.
First statement, how to know if you are the narcissist or the codependent.... If you are the one looking for self-help, you are NOT the narcissist!
It talks about some of the similarities of a codependent and a narcissist. Both can use manipulation to try to get their way. I did do some things that were manipulative, and was scared that meant I really was a narcissist. Apparently not. Phew, what a relief. But only one lacks empathy, the true narcissist. And this is the one that accuses the other of being a narcissist, OMG again, she did accuse me, still is!. This is also part of the gaslighting that I have seen others on this site refer to, a narcissist will try to get you to believe there is something wrong with you when there is not!
I highly suggest anyone feeling down about themselves in this position, afraid they had narcissistic traits, watch this video.
Another thing I wonder about, is how this stuff ties to other things in the world.
The advice on this forum is effective for maximizing the odds of a spouse returning, because the codependent becomes un-dependent, scares the narcissist, and they have to deal with their own stuff? Also why GAL works, it helps the codependent rebuild themselves? And most people that are on this site are codependent in these relationships?
OFP's... why are they always a year? The first video I watched talked about codependence taking a year to get over. Probably takes that long for a narcissist to get over their connection to the codependent also?
Unless, the nar finds new prey. My WW has a long history of overlapping men, and always have one or more on the back burner. Then in full force puts all her life effort into that, until the co-dependent is hooked.. Obviously I am not an expert, just an observer of her actions and what she has told me about relationships and how mine started and is now ending.
Ralph88 Me 40s W 30s, D5 D3 , M7 T9 2013 B drop 1, EA found 2016 B drop 2, EA/PA? 2/16 Physical Seperation 2/16 I filed for D 4/16 PA Confirmed
I like Ross Rosenberg, I studied his stuff on my counselling course. He is an expert on personality disorders in DSM IV. Not a marital therapist of any kind, in essence he trains counsellors.
Rock solid. And yes a codependent can't be a systematic. They can be an enabler in this way. I trust you have examined the abuse thread as there are many ideas which may help. The key is to set boundaries and one of these is that no childhood abuse is in any way a resonated or excuse for repeating the cycle. Big girl pants.
Unfortunately your W hasn't had the childhood models to understand her parenting role and the effects of her actions on your precious children. Your instincts are on the money. Get those children protected.
In every way, childhood sexual and other abuse is never the child's fault, not ever. Managing the adult path is the responsibility of the adult. You can't do that for her, it's her path.
You can provide an environment in which recovery no matter how slow is maintained. You can't do the work for her, it's your job to do that for yourself.
Know that damaged people damage people, don't let this be your children. Be authentic and say so. It's unacceptable to rag on a child at any time.
Next time follow your gut instinct, blame V.
Ithe is time for boundaries on the behaviour of WW that is acceptable to you. Time to state those boundaries clearly and the consequences of her actions.
Clearly and in simple straightforward language.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Wow, the infamous V posted in my thread... Just made my day! I'll check out the link, thank you.
I'm in no position to protect my children. She filed the OFP against me, she unfortunately has all the power over the children, I can't talk to her at all.... Unless you have some other ideas for me?
Filing OFP is really disturbing if she was using it to exploit and manipulate the system.
Mustardseed and a poster named angel I believe and I'm sure others had to deal with similar situations. Might not be a bad idea to read up on those, because you need to be careful that you are not baited... You speak with so much anger (I totally get this. It's a reaction to some pretty bad behaviors ) and I notice you seem to insult wife's level of intellect frequently. I hope IRL you have Control of this so that it cannot be used against you.
It's hard coming to terms with the real dynamics of a relationship. I struggle as well. Sometimes I'm not sure if the ways i behaved dysfunctionally were reactionary to behaviors that were dysfunctional. Or if I had trouble communicating or who knows.
I wish i had more advice other then to focus on you, watch your behaviors and reactions, and do everything legally that is in your own best interest.
That is an impressive reply. I haven't checked, I hope you posted it in your thread also.
I thought I had read most or all of your posts, maybe not. I don't recall reading the negatives you say about your W in what I read, at least not some of the really serious stuff you posted in my thread.... Maybe I missed it. I now see why you feel the way you feel. Even after your extremely well written post, the question isn't totally gone. Have you shown her enough love? Not help, not being happy, but recoprocating love. A sweet post from you on Facebook for example? Again maybe I missed it if you have. I know I did not reciprocate enough in my M, at least not at the correct time. Regardless of your answer, it is your journey, your decision, and I will continue to follow your story.
I don't know what her intent was. She claimed wanting to reconcile at the hearing for the OFP, was upset when I filed D, met with my IC, but refused MC. I am confused! I think at the end of the day it just follows the script, and I am sure I am to blame in her eyes because I filed D... With no thought about the fact that I sit in limbo with no house or money or toys for my kids... And she gets to go out and have fun with our toys, gets to live in our house. I can't "force" her to see that I guess. I shouldn't have to explain it to her, if she can't see that, she lacks the insight that I would want in a M.
The sad thing is, the things she listed in the OFP have slight connections to reality... A very very skewed reality. Not the r@pe thing though, that's over the top, but she does seem to honestly believe that one too, I think.
I will look up those threads you talk about. It is frustrating, I never wanted to learn about all this legal stuff, so I just always kept my nose clean. And here I am fighting things and researching things I have never even heard of to try to save my own butt, while she's out having fun.
I agree about being baited... I wonder that too. Not just to be insulting yet again, but I honestly don't think she is smart enough to figure some of these things out.
But she seems to think I am having her followed, truth is it is a small town and stuff gets back to me whether I want it to or not. So she already thinks I am taking the bait, but I'm not. Sad, scary, I am afraid to be anywhere near her.
Yeah, I have some anger. It is one of the things I am working on. I believe she was hyper sensitive to that too, even though I think she actually had more anger than I did. Did she cause my anger? Well, better question, did I allow her to push my buttons by having buttons? I will have to admit yes to that one. When I realize anger coming out, which I did about 1/2 the time, I can stop it instantly, return to a calm state and talk calmly. I think that drove her even more crazy though, maybe came across as cocky, which was never the intent.
I was hoping the insults in my head would help me detach. Sometimes it does. Sometimes not. Sometimes it just brings more guilt about feeling that way about someone I loved. I just can't find any other reasons to give up on her, other than recent actions.
I knew all along she was super sensitive to insults, so I was always very very careful to not say anything that was insulting. I slipped once early in the M, said she was acting like a child. She was very upset, and not an angry upset but more of a sad upset. I felt terrible and made sure I never said anything like that again. I would put money on it that she remembers to this day, 20 years later. I felt so bad that I remember to this day.
I know I am guilty of not respecting her... Her book smarts, never bothered me, it never came out as resentment, I know that. If she asked me to help the kids with homework, I never thought anything bad of her. When she didnt think things through and it caused either serious inconveniences or it was hurfult, I know I vented that freely.
I know I yelled at times I didn't need to. I know I told her afterward that I didn't need to. I even asked her to help point it out if she noticed, if she pointed it out I immediately apologized.
I thought we had some fairly standard M issues, that we were working through some of them (obviously without help from MC or reading material though). I thought we'd get through this, and things would continue to improve.
Unless she has recordings or witnesses this is he says, she says.
Please get legal advice and fight. Get some decent evidence in your pocket. Conversations with your children, diary entries, emails and texts. In this type of sitch it is usually those with the best evidence that has the best legal journey.
If you can record some stuff, frankly I have seen this before. It's a minority tactic and called 'triangulation' in this case using the legal system as the third party.
These children need protection from the out of control WW.
Men are often afraid to fight for their children, you must do so and I guarantee your R with your children is vital to you as your children are yours for life.
Keep your buttons out of pressing reach, stay calm, breathe. You can. Always have another adult present when dealing with difficult issues with WW.
When in doubt say naught.
Yes do not be fooled, please read Mustardseed thread, or Ancaire,
Schermann managed to fight for his kids, as did Joe whose spouse was a sex worker.
It's easy to be discouraged when the law is involved.
I will keep checking in, giving you some fighting spirit.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thanks again V. It's kind of too late at this point, as of yesterday actually. The D papers are all signed. I have a decent amount of time with the kids, not great though. Summer will be 6 out of 14 days, school year 5 out of 14.
The things she does with the kids are not necessarily endangering, but not real smart. Hanging around people who drink a lot is not against the law, unfortunately. If they get caught drinking and driving with the kids, that would be bad, but I "think" she knows better than that... Or at least I hope, she would never have done that when we were together, but who knows now if that was her values or mine. In between she does some good things too, in fact I wonder if she is after the "favorite parent" award. I'm not playing into it, I just do things with my kids just like I always have, let them see things for the way they really are.
I have discussed this many times with my atty. She said that if I brought it to court with what is out there for evidence at this point, I will likely end up with less custody, not more. The fact that the OFP exists is the primary thing against me... Even though in it's current form it has nothing to do with the kids, it's still a major point against me.
A few months ago S11 was having some health issues. W brought him in, got meds, and was super nice to my mom that day, super nice, reasonable, talked about me, though mostly not so good things. Said she hoped we could be civil some day for the kids sake. Since then she went back to being silent. S11 had a bruise, was bothering him for a few days, so W brought him to dr. today. Afterward W called my mom, was all polite again, after not talking for months.
W said she didn't understand the custody schedule, hoped I could explain it to her, through my mom, write it all out on a calander. I thought about it for a while, and decided no, it's not that complicated, it's it my job any longer. What is my job is protecting myself, so I had my mom text her instead about her excess spending and the 20k in legal fees because of her OFP. Apparently W was so upset she couldn't talk to my mom, so had her mom call my mom. They went back and forth, the crazy stuff they claim I am spending money on, totally ridiculous, I'm not buying food or clothes or anything, just spending enough to pay for gas, and we're bouncing checks. Oh I can't wait to get her off my checking account and let her sink her own ship!! They also talked about her paranoia of me following W, so hopefully she gets off of that horse now!
I don't know. I don't get it. I guess I never will.
The good news, I am getting fed up enough with this mess, it is really helping me detach. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. The anxiety is definitely coming down. The pile of stuff I wanted to vent to her, some of it has now been indirectly vented. I read in someone's thread about treating your W like a sister. In my case it's like a daughter than needs to grow up and learn things on her own, with no control or even help from me any longer. Rope dropped!!!
I don't know what her intent was. She claimed wanting to reconcile at the hearing for the OFP, was upset when I filed D, met with my IC, but refused MC. I am confused! I think at the end of the day it just follows the script, and I am sure I am to blame in her eyes because I filed D.
Don't be fooled by talks of reconciliation. My husband did similar after he received petition to pay child support (i had asked a few times before filing)and then never mentioned it again after i proceeded with court and became really upset with me when I brought it up.
If they really want to, they will make it happen. So do what's in your best interest.
I am so happy that vanilla recognized your wife's use of the legal system as something to be weary of. I think you do have to proceed with caution and try not to get hung up on all the unfairness of what she's doing OR the sentiment of a lost love...It's a waste of energy and won't help you at this point. Maybe save it for later because right now you need to be smart about things. Getting access to your kids and protecting yourself is number 1.
Sorry, I just saw that your divorce papers are signed... I have no legal background, but in these situations isn't it worse for someone to make false accusations against a parent in order to keep them from seeing kids?
I am truly amazed how much I detached today. Nothing to do with GAL, nothing to do with anything other than understanding she is a mess, she has more narcissistic traits than I realized, that she is paranoid for her own reasons, that this is almost over and she'll likely end up bankrupt, etc. She can have her loser friends, hopefully the impact to the kids will be minimal. Supposedly her friends are funding her trips... Half of her friends are unemployed, so that is going to run out. And some time has passed to heal the wounds, at least partially. I get time with my kids. I'll be back in my house soon. I think it's all uphill from here. Oh, and enough plans with my kids to stay busy all weekend. Just gotta find stuff for myself to do for the next 2 months when I don't have the kids.
Keep on documenting, do not stop. Even though you are D. Keep all receipts and annotate those statements. If you can go back and annotate previous statements. I do help others with D finances and I know absolutely how important knowing the numbers and producing summary schedules can be. If xWW spends beyond the permitted limits then you can recover (didn't say you want to) this stuff is leverage. There are plenty of online tools for Fins. Use them. Have two new accounts set up, one for bills and one for debts and loans to repay. Have a credit card for personal use and one for kid use. Keep things clean and attach receipts to the back of the cards.
Your WW is rewriting history in this.
You must get WW off your accounts so your fins are your own, the longer you leave this the worse it will be.
Please don't have third parties run your fins for you, big boy pants and do so yourself with facts. In emails or texts. Two squabbling children telling their mommies is going to escalate issues. This is a gentle V 2x4 as this stuff is tough, kids raising kids will give real problems. Time to become the rock for your kids if xWH is the hard place. Time to be a stable force for those kids. Time for love and hugs.
Emotional maturity on another thing, your kids are important if WW doesn't understand the schedule she is setting you up. When things go bad she may say 'you knew I didn't understand'.
If it were me then I would say 'WW in order for us to be clear on schedules, I have set up an online calender for kids schedules. Here is the log in. I have filled in the first two/three/four months of items as I see it. Please can you put appointments on there that you know of. Dentist, doctor, play dates.....
I want this to work for us xWW and to be calm so we can coparent easily. In future I want you and I to deal directly."
This is easier if you have a structure.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I actually have been tracking who made every charge since BD, and I have kept almost every single receipt. After the conversation between my mom and MIL last night I was thinking I should print it for xW. She has spent 3 times as much as I have (after normal bills). This should come as no surprise, it has been an argument between us for years, she had no sense of it even when I told her. Hopefully showing the numbers will get the point across, I'm thinking she will back down for lack of understanding the numbers, or just keep asking stupid questions forever.
The OFP says we have to keep the account joint, and the D doesn't finalize child support, so the account has to stay as is for now. W made a comment to my mom that she isn't sure if her atty is giving her all the letters from my atty. So, I'm going to print them all so W can see my atty is putting in lots of questions, hers isn't.
The OFP also doesn't allow direct communication between us. Everything about this OFP is getting ridiculous!
Good idea on the google docs calendar. I think you are right, that I will have to deal with her saying "you knew I didn't understand," just as life with her has always been. Frustrating. I don't think it will be intentional on her part, just a lack of intelligence.
Rewriting history... Is it ever going to stop? Seems the only way would be if I explained it to her, which of course means I am still trying to fix her, trying to control her.
Even with all of this, a part of me still misses her. I'd rather have her in my life and have to deal with her childishness, than to be alone and have to divide up our life. Besides, I may be forever trying to explain this stuff anyway. If someone showed up with a time machine I know exactly what I'd do different, I would run from her as fast as possible, before I got sucked in and drug down. Every time I read V's signature, I find myself reading it over and over and over!
V, I posted over in Lambo's thread. Most of what I said was a repeat, but hopefully it will help him hearing it again.
Also V, curious if you happened to have read my sitch from the beginning? Any pointers? (besides GAL, and detach, and tracking finances, and all those things that I am already working on) Anything that may help my M?
I received my DR book Thursday. Lots of info that might help me out if there wasn't an OFP against me. 5 1/2 months left on it, until I can talk to her myself again.
Not sure I want her back, but I "think" I want to be that person she feels safe talking to again. If she does decide to grow up at some point here, I'd like to see where it leads. Might take that 5 1/2 months for the rest of my anger at her for filing the OFP to go away.
It is very said that it has to come to having our mom's talk to each other, we are both in our 40's! Well, physically anyway, not sure about mentally. W putting on her big girl panties? I doubt it!
Forgot to note that part of the reason I had my mom try calling my W in the first place. I was supposed to be able to get stuff from my house by now, but her atty is dragging his feet. I was paranoid W was going to take my boat out, so I asked if my parents could go get it. W agreed. When W was talking to my mom earlier in the day, she was apparently scared I was going to get the boat myself without notifying W. Like really scared. I don't get what her paranoia is about, we would never do something like that without telling her first, and I can't go to the house at all myself. So I had my mom try calling W to calm her down both about that and about W thinking I am having her followed. I just can't believe how paranoid she is, borderline psychotic.
Apparently W has said to my mom she needed the OFP to keep me from trying to get her back, that she would be too weak and give in.
Frustrating because I was willing to do anything to try to work it out, offered MC, attended men's group, bought books, admitted my downfalls to her...
I was re-reading my thread..... Curious how far I have come. Well, the worst days right after BD really aren't documented here, but still interesting to reflect on it.
Here's a post I just re-read and it had even more meaning this time through:
Originally Posted By: Zephyr
I just wanted to point out that likely your wife is NOT a narcissist...just acting that way. and yes, I did want to point out that she is projecting that on you because she does not want to feel that way about herself.
I read this a few times. It didn't stick. I read it again today, have heard the info from multiple places now, it's starting to stick now. Thanks again for being another source of perspective that has helped on my journey.
So much projection from W!! So much of my self-esteem being effected by W. I always thought of myself as being fairly strong, that I could get through anything. I survived cancer with barely a blink. My kids health issues. W's health issues. Being unemployed for 6 months at a time and barely making ends meet. Why so different with this? Because I drew my strength from my W! No matter what life threw at me, love would carry me through. I relied on her way too much apparently.
I never rehearsed the vows in my head, but I sure lived them. For richer or poorer, in sickness and in health. I guess she twisted those too, thought she was agreeing to "as long as I feel like it, I'll stay, and if we hit a bump in the road, I refuse to put any effort into finding a healthy solution to it, it is someone else's problem to make sure I stay happy."
OFP's in my county are given out as benefit of the doubt. I've heard stories about people who tried to fight them, with a whole line of witnesses testifying the accusations are actually backward (one example, she was the abusive one, filing an OFP against him), and the OFP was still granted. It is quite sickening to hear the stories.
I agreed to the OFP, without fighting it, but managed to get some adjustments made, and sounds like it worked out for me about as good as I could hope for.
Obviously W didn't think about the repercussions of her actions. Still hasn't, still is playing the victim. Still thinks I actually did the things she claimed to get the OFP. Still thinks I am following her, thinks I am wasting money even though she has spent 3 times as much as I have, thinks my atty is wasting money by taking too long even though her atty is always the hold-up.
W never tried leaving. W suggested we take some time apart, I offered to stay in the basement because our house is huge. Apparently that wasn't going to work for her. W never offered to leave. She needed to be safe from the big bad manipulator that would continue to ask her to go to MC, what an awful person I am!
W didn't ask to stay in the house in the OFP, I actually offered it to her. Stupid me! Again, what an awful person I am!
W said she'd never try to keep the kids from me. But then, guess what, tried to keep the kids from me. She says to my mom "that's just how they do OFP.s", but then at the hearing when we reviewed the details of the OFP, her atty was telling her I would have unsupervised time with the kids, she was very reluctant to agree.
There are two things I can do. First, offer MC, which I did. Second, file for D, which I did. There is nothing else that can be changed unless W agrees to the change.
The OFP will run it's course and be over in 5 1/2 months from now. She may try to get an extension, but will have nothing for a reason.
I wonder how many orders are issued that are used as a means to break up?
I've read some numbers, they vary depending on the source, but sounds like somewhere are 60% of OFP's are based on false claims. If the women play it right, they can use it for absolute control in the D, custody, etc. Luckily my W didn't go as crazy as she could have. But then again she also could have not filed for one in the first place, or could have dropped it at any time.
1. My W spending quite a bit of money. She say I have spent too much. I have it all tracked. Do I share that with her? It's a joint account, theoretically it is in her best interest to know what is actually going on with a joint account.
2. Her atty is terrible at replying. W says W may not be getting the emails from her atty that my atty is sending. My atty says she can't send anything directly to W due to the OFP. Do I dare have my mom give them to her to keep things moving? Maybe a question for my atty.
W did an OFP to protect herself from her own weakness? Because she really wanted out? Like, permanently? Even though she showed NO signs 2 weeks earlier? Ironic, just read another thread by Martin5, about how fast they seem to change.
I'm feeling a little better about myself, but I still feel stuck. I can't "show" DB'ing. I know, I know, DB'ing is supposed to be for me, not W, but leaves me in a position of not being able to do anything to try to repair this mess. As long as this OFP is in place, there is NO hope, only a continuous stream of money pouring out the door, and a semi continuous stream of tears. As long as it is in place, or at least until the D is finalized, I am having a hell of a time with GAL.
Here's the part of DB'ing I'm not getting: People on here have a spouse that betrays them, in one way or another, different for every sitch. The LBS has to do all the work? Just doesn't seem right! It's like accepting blame that we pushed them away, and we have to justify all of their rotten behavior to boot.
On the other side of the argument, sure I wasn't perfect, sure W had a 6 ring circus just packed with crazy monkeys. But it still doesn't justify the actions she is taking. Does it?
The first couple replies from people more emotionally stable than myself (or at least come across that way in their posts, LOL), like Zephyr, SadHub (SH now?), V, Cadet, JOB, etc... Stating things about how I didn't deserve the way I am being treated makes me feel better about me, doesn't make me feel better about W. But I have to find it in myself to forgive and take the high road? And still try to maintain some hope that she will realize her mistake? After the devastation she left in her wake both emotionally and financially? I don't know, I just don't see ever recovering from that with or without her. I'm scared that I will end up one of those people bitter and alone for the rest of their life!
Also from Martin5's thread:
Originally Posted By: Cadet
If you really want to learn there is much information that can be gathered here. Although most people will take my word for it, some need this information to keep moving forward. I know I did.
Knowledge is Power!
Yep, I need to know. But I don't know that it is possible to get the answers without talking to W?
I'm scared that I will end up one of those people bitter and alone for the rest of their life!
from what I've seen, those people live a $hit life because they refuse to move on from the past and can't accept and forgive. they get stuck in all of thier hurt and pain.
you asked me a question about loving wife enough. I admit for years I did not love her the way she wanted. I did not show thise loving gestures that made her feel loved. I did show her or at least tried to, on my terms.
I know better now. the idea that I went out of my way to prepare a special meal or set up an outing for her came from my heart. ro her, it just came across as something I did. it was not her primary love language so she did not receive it the same way I intended. have you read up on love languages and needs of a.man or woman yet. if not, they are simple books....well worth your time.
yes, i show wife loving gestures all of the time. it is a gentle struggle of trying not to overpuraue her or project my needs by just acting as if i would want things done for me. giving to her unconditionally, without expectations, silent contracts or without a catch. ithe is not easy to learn and there have been times i need to remind myself that love is a choice...we can either chose to give or chose not to. a subtle reminder that it comes from me.
we give because of our love and admiration for our partner, not because what we think we can get from them we give because that is what what i chose to do. we set an example to our children and to our spouses. we don't punish them by withholding love and affection because of something they did or something they said. turns out that is abusive behavior that i am sure many on the LBS side of the fence are guilty of in our old marriages.
my wife has told me that she does feel loved. I know believe only 1/2 her love reserve will never fill back up as long as resentment in her heart is held onto. s9 I practice gratitude and appreciation in hopes she learns that from example to help rid ourselves of that evil little bastardizzone called resentment.
the two concepts overlap so much, it bears repeating. unless you are able t9 let go of all your pain all your anger and resentment towards wife you will never truely be able to love openly, by yourself or by someone else.
we have done that our whole marriage, especially with physical touch (if wifes main love language is not physical touch, as I suspect yours is not, she.may have pretended like a champion or does enjoy the physical, bit that is not thier primary love language and as such does not feel the same importance of those acts as say you or I do) does that make sense?
I promise to get a new thread up today...I've been so terribly busy at work. plus I sort of put myself on notice to stop spending so much time on this site and a coupke others at work...hard to type like this at home, unless I do before all the others get up.
Zephyr, as usual a well thought out and well put reply.
The bitterness for some I think may be because of continuous reminders. Or continued selfish actions by the ex. I have seen bitter people, and believe me, I don't want to be one of them!
I have not read about the love languages. One step at a time, still working on my overwhelming loneliness and the codependence. I have been reading and listening to lots on it, figured that is the major obstacle at this point since I am not in a R. Most of what I am finding is that one partner is codependent and the other is a narcissist. I can't nail down who did what in my M completely. I have done a few self tests, where I score good. I then redo the test with my understanding of W, she scores worse but still no where near an actual NPD. I actually had more typed but deleted it as it is just rambling, I need to put the thoughts together constructively and more organized before posting.
I have been practicing better parenting skills, and validating is one of the major ones I am implementing, and noticing huge improvements on. My mother is a full blown monster when it comes to this, the best of intents and the very worst tools. Living with her is a nightmare I can't wait to escape, even with all the help she provides, the emotional devastation at this time in my life is overwhelming, so I try to avoid her as much as possible. This has always been the relationship with her. Definitely the source of my codependency. Being I live there, it is challenging. Being I don't have enough close friends, and an introvert, makes it difficult to find anything to do besides pacing up and down the driveway. I need to find something for myself someday.
My M is a mystery to me. I can think of things we both did right, I can think of things we both did wrong. It is an endless list in both directions. She didn't seem present, I didn't seem present. Overall it felt empty. Neither of us sought out a solution until the very end, when I tried to get her to go to MC with me, and she opted for the OFP instead.
The only other thing I can find, is the codependent/NPD issue, but neither of us qualify as the NPD.
Interesting... D paperwork was signed by W, sent to my atty, ready to file.
Also a letter about concern about things I have supposedly said to S11 and D9 about the D. This has come up repeatedly. So W wants us to go to a counselor to discuss, which I agree should happen, but they specify no R talks. I get a continuous list of things from the kids, facts that W has shared with them, and I have trouble answering... It's a challenge but I think I have done OK, it's ridiculous that she's sending messages through the children seemingly intentionally, then reporting it to her atty every time the kids say something that I supposedly said..., which by the time it gets back to me is different, I assume due to perception of children.
So, serious question here... Not sure when this will happen, but this is going to be hard, face to face for the first time in 6 months... I've had no practice. I'm probably going to get angry. I'm probably gonna cry. Maybe both at the same time. I'm panicking... What do I do to prepare? Obviously no R talk both for following the rules, and proper DB'ing. I need to stand up for myself, without being confrontational. It going to be hard to not bring up the OFP... Or do I share the frustration. Or just let the tears out for sympathy. Oh boy, what a desperate loser I feel like.
If it comes up that we need to figure out how to coparent, do I get to unload? "How do we do that in light of this...." And then lay out the OFP open to the page where she says I r@ped her through entire M, the fact that she was claiming the kids aren't safe with me in the OFP, her excessive spending, the suspicious activities that she has been up to including leaving the kids alone New Year's Eve, her leaving the kids on her weekend twice, her loser friends and all the crap the kids see/hear when around them, her greed in mediation, the money wasted on atty fees because of the OFP, what else? Think that will kick her off her high horse?
Or do I take the "nicey nice" approach? I'll talk to IC about it too.
W did an OFP to protect herself from her own weakness? Because she really wanted out? Like, permanently? Even though she showed NO signs 2 weeks earlier? Ironic, just read another thread by Martin5, about how fast they seem to change.
I know how badly you want the how's and whys of everything your wife did and is doing. But it's not going to help you. You have to just deal with what you do have control over.
I'm feeling a little better about myself, but I still feel stuck. I can't "show" DB'ing. I know, I know, DB'ing is supposed to be for me, not W, but leaves me in a position of not being able to do anything to try to repair this mess. As long as this OFP is in place, there is NO hope, only a continuous stream of money pouring out the door, and a semi continuous stream of tears. As long as it is in place, or at least until the D is finalized, I am having a hell of a time with GAL.
Here's the part of DB'ing I'm not getting: People on here have a spouse that betrays them, in one way or another, different for every sitch. The LBS has to do all the work? Just doesn't seem right! It's like accepting blame that we pushed them away, and we have to justify all of their rotten behavior to boot.
If you knew for a fact that your wife was gone and your marriage was over, That there was no hope for reconciliation... what would you do? What could you do so that you would not repeat your mistakes in your next relationship? This is where your focus needs to be. Let your wife deal with her issues and you deal with yours. LBS work is not for getting spouse back. It's for moving forward in a way that is healthy for LBS. once they leave, the chance of them coming back is very small. And if they do, there is a big chance they will just leave again at some point in the future.
On the other side of the argument, sure I wasn't perfect, sure W had a 6 ring circus just packed with crazy monkeys. But it still doesn't justify the actions she is taking. Does it?
It definatly does not. marriage is a committment and your supposed to work on it together. but she doesn't think this way. Only some of us do. Completely out of your control. You can't make her behave in anyway she doesn't want to, regardless of rational. Whoever is less invested in the relationship has all the power. your only shot is to disinvest in relationship and invest in what works for you.
The first couple replies from people more emotionally stable than myself (or at least come across that way in their posts, LOL), like Zephyr, SadHub (SH now?), V, Cadet, JOB, etc... Stating things about how I didn't deserve the way I am being treated makes me feel better about me, doesn't make me feel better about W. But I have to find it in myself to forgive and take the high road? And still try to maintain some hope that she will realize her mistake? After the devastation she left in her wake both emotionally and financially? I don't know, I just don't see ever recovering from that with or without her. I'm scared that I will end up one of those people bitter and alone for the rest of their life!
major red flag OFP. Why are you so scared of being alone for the rest of your life.? Why do you need her? That's not a reason to be with anyone.
I hope you don't end up one of those bitter divorced men either. It's not healthy and it's not attractive. And I understand exactly how you feel because I was mad and resentful and bitter for a really long time too. I almost feel like my anger was an obsession. GAL really helps. Appreciating the things I do have helped. I believe hypnotherapy helped me too with the obsessive thought.
Also from Martin5's thread:
Originally Posted By: Cadet
If you really want to learn there is much information that can be gathered here. Although most people will take my word for it, some need this information to keep moving forward. I know I did.
Knowledge is Power!
Yep, I need to know. But I don't know that it is possible to get the answers without talking to W?
I get to pick up stuff from the house next week, finally. Was supposed to happen within 2 weeks of mediation, will be one day short of 4 weeks when I actually get to go. But at least it is happening.
D9 supposedly said an insult to the daughter of one of W's new loser friends. The whole group of friends now wants nothing to do with W or D9. D9 said the other girl lied, she lies all the time. I told D9 to not feel bad, the problem worked itself out. If this other girl lies all the time, it's probably better that D9 isn't around her.
It is also amazing how immature the friends are about how they chose to deal with it. Well, that's how those kind of people are I guess.
I also told my kids that W deserves to have some better friends, and I hope she finds them.
This has pros and cons.. Pros: - W will no longer be bringing my kids around these losers - W no longer has any friends, severely limiting her GAL efforts, and hopefully cut down on her spending. - Hopefully this eliminate some of the enablers. - Hopefully this will help her hit rock bottom faster so she can start working on her own issues. - W was looking at houses in MY hometown. THe kids say she is now looking at houses in neighboring towns, closer to W's hometown. That would be good, as then I won't have to hear about her actions as much.
Downside: - I don't have joint legal custody yet, she could enroll the kids in a different school and there's nothing I can do about it. That would suck for me, and the kids. Hopefully W is smarter than that, but so far she hasn't impressed me with her decisions. - The fight might not last and she'll return to previous activities. And then all I can do is hope it is just a matter of time that another fight happens.
Another example happened that was a total common sense thing, my mom had to figure out a detail of me picking up stuff from the house that W should have easily, very easily, figured out. I was floored that W didn't figure it out in fact.
She clearly has the IQ of a gnat, way worse than when we were together.
I wish there were ways I could help her hit rock bottom a little faster. Not because I want her to suffer, quite the opposite, because I want her to learn to become a better person. It would certainly help the kids out either way, and maybe turn her back my direction?
I know how badly you want the how's and whys of everything your wife did and is doing. But it's not going to help you. You have to just deal with what you do have control over.
I know, I know.... I am trying to get there, and I am slowly. I think partially because I do understand most of it, it's just hard to accept. One of my FF's who doesn't know that much about my sitch said yesterday "hurting people hurt people." It's hard to imagine. I have felt vengeful at times, even toward W lately, but no way would I follow through with actions based on those feelings.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
If you knew for a fact that your wife was gone and your marriage was over, that there was no hope for reconciliation... what would you do? What could you do so that you would not repeat your mistakes in your next relationship? This is where your focus needs to be. Let your wife deal with her issues and you deal with yours. LBS work is not for getting spouse back. It's for moving forward in a way that is healthy for LBS. once they leave, the chance of them coming back is very small. And if they do, there is a big chance they will just leave again at some point in the future.
I am getting there slowly. And I was with you right up to the end, that they will leave again? I know it happens that they leave again, but I assume only when neither spouse has done any work, or if the LBS allows it too easily?
Originally Posted By: JujuB
It definatly does not. marriage is a committment and your supposed to work on it together. but she doesn't think this way. Only some of us do. Completely out of your control. You can't make her behave in anyway she doesn't want to, regardless of rational. Whoever is less invested in the relationship has all the power. your only shot is to disinvest in relationship and invest in what works for you.
Only partially true? Sometimes the WAW is fully justified, and left someone who was truly abusive? Part of my struggle is that the things I did wrong (the real things, not the ones she made up in the OFP), in my perception are minor, those same things in her perception are major.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
major red flag OFP. Why are you so scared of being alone for the rest of your life.? Why do you need her? That's not a reason to be with anyone.
Definitely the issue I am working on with the most effort. I was severely codependent, no doubt about it. I was having withdrawals something fierce, still am. This has been an issue for me since I was 15.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
I hope you don't end up one of those bitter divorced men either. It's not healthy and it's not attractive. And I understand exactly how you feel because I was mad and resentful and bitter for a really long time too. I almost feel like my anger was an obsession. GAL really helps. Appreciating the things I do have helped. I believe hypnotherapy helped me too with the obsessive thought.
Your right. Our perceptions are so different. It's easy to look back and say hey, "spouses behavior is pretty abusive" and certainly "my behavior was pretty abusive" and it really is sad how badly we can treat the person we love and committed ourselves to. (I still have to find zues' card analogy for you. It's really touching. I remember crying when I read it. I Will try to do so later or tomorrow night) the only thing you really can do is examine the issues that she was upset about and determine whether or not they are things you should be working on. For yourself and for your next relationship (with her or someone new)
Maybe list them out here.
At the same time you have to recognize things your wife could do that are dangerous to you (like orders of protection) and be prepared to prevent them. Vanillas advice is amazing regarding this topic. And I am sure she could help you with any questions. Important to be educated regarding this.
One thing I can say, is that you have to stop focusing on all the things she is doing that you find "stupid". She is her own person and is going to make her own choices regardless of whether they are up to a certain level of intellect. This is a really insulting way of referring to the person that you married. It would be like calling your spouse ugly. Instead, try to look at her choices objectively and then if you disagree figure out how to handle it appropriatly, but also with your childrens interests at heart... Through an attorney, appropriate communication etc.
You guys are no longer a team unit so helping her reach rock bottom or helping her to become a better person is not your responsibility right now. Helpe yourself become a better person.
I am not really sure of how to handle codependency. In my relationship, husband and I led completely separate lives so this was not really an issue for me. In fact him leaving, did not really change my life in the slightest so I think I am mentally having an easier time then others. I know there are books out there. Are you comfortable sharing with the board? I know many people on here have coped with this as well and might be able to help.
I only tried a little bit of counseling and I didn't love it. My main issue is anxiety and obsessive thoughts. I am someone that doesn't even like to take Advil, so meds were not an option for me either. I began to recognize that my thoughts regarding husband (anger thoughts, thoughts of him cheating) were more obsessive in nature then anything else. So I went to 4 sessions with a hypnotherapist. I am completely amazed at the way it worked for me. She basically just talked to me. It was almost like meditation but a lot easier. Again, I cannot believe how nicely it helped me even with other things like school shootings and potential illnesses. I never thought it possible, but I actually no longer care if there is another woman because that's about him, not me. (And I was REALLY devastated by this obsessive thought) and doesn't affect my life in the slightest.
I ponder way too much, about my part in the demise of the M. I just can't find the pieces to fit them together properly. We were just so... what's the word? Absent? We didn't talk to each other that much, we barely tried. We'd talk about day to day stuff, but I wonder if we both avoided some things because we knew it would go bad if we discussed it. Who made it go bad? I don't know.
It's frustrating, the things that she has done lately are not thought out at all, and every time I hear something like that, reminds me of what life was like. I keep listing the things I am frustrated about it, but I still want her back. I don't get it! I wonder if I am just trying too hard to convince myself I'll be better off without her, trying too hard to detach.
I know I can't help her with anything... I do want her to realize, grow, and come back. I think? Rock bottom sounds like a critical part of that path, and is the only reason I am hoping it is coming soon. Quite a few people now have told me they think she'll come back. Will I want that person when she returns? I need to stop trying to answer that question too I guess.
I love going to IC most of the time. I wish sometimes IC listened to me more, gave less advice. She is blunt, maybe that is good. Seems she doesn't totally get "me" but I don't know if I want to start over with someone else. Some of her advice is stufff I already know and/or doesn't seem pertinent. Seems 1 hour a week is not enough, every once in a while her next appt will cancel and I get 2 hours, that is much better.
Not sure what to add on codependency that I haven't already written. J, you sound like a normal healthy person. What you describe is NOT me. I lived every breath for my W, spent every minutes I could with her, I couldn't stand being away from her, I never did things without her, she was my security blanket. Up until the last year, I seemed to be that for her also. I've mentioned a few things I have read on the subject, and videos I have watched. If someone has questions on my journey or specific questions I am willing to answer. Or pointers for me, I am all ears.
Met with my IC tonight. Nothing earth shattering there, talked about the counseling that W & I will do for coparenting.
Read a few more pages of DR book. If only I had a M to work on the material might be really useful.
Talked to a FF on the phone. I plan to spend the weekend at my brother's, as usual when I don't have the kids, he'll likely have some projects for me to work on.
My self esteem is not coming back. I am scared to death of the idea of going out in public. Scared of the idea of doing some of the activities with the kids that used to include W, because I will miss not having her help.
I posted this in Zephyr's thread, thought I should put it here also for myself or others following my thread:
Zephyr, I hear you about conditioning from dealing with your mother. Living with my parents has sure been an eye opener for me. Every discussion with my mother results in her having extreme anger, spewing hate at me, etc. The next day she'll tell me how she agrees with everything I said. WTF? I ask her to stop hovering, she can't. I ask her to stop interfering with my children, she can't. This feels so familiar, I realize that has been the trend my entire life. This is what caused me to be who I am.
These patterns repeated in my M. What causes us to either retaliate in anger (aka fear) like I do, or back down in fear like you do? Patterns in our M, or patterns from our parents? Then, did we marry our mother or father? They fit our life so well because they are a photocopy of the dysfunction we are used to experiencing?
I have the opposite end, but same problem. My W learned to not trust me because of the anger, or because I tried to fix her. Neither extreme works. Being open, honest, AND most of all calm I think is the solution? It takes all 3 at the same time to be effective?
I have a theory I shared with my brother the other day. When someone vents without thinking, whether writing or talking or yelling, their true feelings come out. I have noticed this in text messages I used to get from W. I know her well, I can read a text that she wrote, and know that even though she was terrible at sharing, when she did share, what she wrote was genuine, that she didn't ever filter anything. Her lack of empathy or lack of intelligence or whatever was the issue, prevented her from having a filter. Her perception is way off from the norm, way off from logic, but still genuine. Her method of response is extremely hurtful (the OFP is a prime example), but still the "right thing to do" from her perspective.
Running everything through a filter first is designed to protect others, or to protect ourselves from not appearing a certain way to others (more fear). The more thought out your posts are, the less genuine they are? What are you really p'd off about that you are filtering? I am sure you have noticed the lack of filter in my posts. My "wrong" thoughts are right there in the open. Fear of what others think is not part of why I journal. I hope my W never reads the things I have written, or anyone else that I know, but I know I am being honest with myself. I should post this in my thread also I guess.
Here's the part that confuses me... do we filter or share with brutal honestly in a M?
one thing we have to understand is when we hide our true feelings it generates untrustworthyness and you start to lose that closeness that you get with a deep trust...that is in a normal, healthy relationship
we were not holding up our end of that honesty bargain. you can fix your side and you don't need to be involved in a marriage to do it.
our spouses have used hiding, lying, deceit and omission as a first line defense for a long time. they want to feel normal, to appear normal so they pretend and hide all of those feelings of shame and hurt and whatnot.
they will need to figure out on their own...or they will continue to pretend who they appear to be is real.
I think brutal honesty only works in a marriage with two highly differentiated people.
I'm reading a book about passion in marriage that talks about differentiation a lot, so right now all marriage problems look like differentiation problems. ;-)
I'm realizing that some of the issues I thought were marriage issues were really my issues. H has his own issues, but I can make a big difference just by fixing the ones I own and becoming more differentiated.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
the 'i feel' approach is a way to help take some of the defensiveness away from being honest with people.
maybe not a true black and white issue here either...still figuring this one out
I tried this on my mother a couple times. I told her that something she said felt condescending. She blew up at me. Then made some comment about not knowing what condescending means. Wow, wrong person to test theories on!
My IC has a poster in her office.
Under one column is: Core self Love Caring Open Accepting Collaborative Thoughtful Curious/interested Gentle Authentic/Real Creative Requesting Flexible Forgiving Benefit of doubt Generous Approachable Reliable WISE
Other column: Reactive self Fear/anger Harsh Skeptical Stingy Defensive Quick to judge Make wrongs Blaming I win/I'm right Critical Stonewalling Accusing "Always" or "never" Demanding Disrespectful Keeping score Dumb
My approach was always brutal honesty. Maybe too brutal, I didn't filter enough what I said. I didn't use the "I feel...." approach, I used the "you have to..." approach too often. Examples: You have to stop spending so much. When are you going to actually come home? What do I have to buy you for you to want to be here? Where are the kids? When do I get to spend time with them? When are you going to be the adult? (Regarding W interacting with the children) Now what are you doing? (if W wasn't home, yet again)
A lot of those examples were in the last year when the kids activities got excessive.
Talked to a cousin yesterday. She was saying she saw W and POM shopping a few weeks ago, but not walking together, maybe because they saw my cousin. And saw them again a couple days ago, POM with his granddaughter and my D9, separately MIL with my S11, and W by herself looking at something. Frustrating! Guess I'm going to have to get used to it.
My cousin was also saying W usually put her nose down when she sees her at the school, but one day W says hi nicely, there was no one else around. Cousin was saying she is acting weird sometimes, make-up all done up (which she used to only do for weddings and similar) when going to the school, flinging her hair like she is being sexy. I loved W regardless of how she looked, but she is not sexy.
My cousin also said POM is creepy. A few years ago POM sent a friend request on FB to my cousin after POM saw her on the street, but they never talked. She is over 20 years younger than POM. And he was still married at the time.
Read some more of DR. Would have been handy info years ago.
Read some more on codependence, still wondering to myself if I want W back because I want her back or because of the codependence. The withdrawals are painful, similar but much worse than trying to quit smoking.
Talked to a friend today, the one who's wife left him for an A, 3 1/2 years ago, she was a boomerang, they are piecing now, very slowly. His story is sad, he is so beaten down! He tried dating while she was gone, was with one girl for 5 months, and said he could never get his mind off his W. And now trying to forgive all the hurt she caused, I can hear the pain in his voice. But he's not giving up on her. He keeps telling me "your W will be back, you'll see." I don't want to end up like him!!!
I just read Bluwave's thread again. I have come to a conclusion, that I am trying to make stick. I do NOT want a R with my xW ever again. Anyone capable of causing such cold hearted destruction, was clearly not the right person for me. I am tired of making excuses for her behavior. Her past caught up to her, her morals are all screwed up, and I really don't need toxic people in my life. I hope to find love again, maybe true love next time, maybe happier than ever. No more holding on to her to prevent me from facing my fears of being alone. No more using the kids as an excuse for wanting her back.
In 7 months I have not had 30 seconds of relief from the anxiety. My chest muscles twitch approximately in pace with my heartbeat, then it moves to my stomach muscles being tight and twitching, then moves to my back muscles being tight. It seems to move depending on my mood or what I am thinking about. I haven't researched or nailed down which feelings cause what, all I know is it is getting old! My hands shake with every movement. And my list of fears is not getting any shorter. I am a full blown mess still. I have let this person destroy me, and still do.
I spent the weekend at my brother's house. I helped him with projects, played a game for a while today even. No relief during any of this. Sitting in a lawn chair looking at the lake, peaceful, calm, a slight breeze, the sound of relatives talking behind me, this should have been euphoria. My brother asked how I was doing. I was not doing well. I looked at him and cried. So nice having someone care enough to ask. To receive something that was missing from my entire M. Something missing from my entire childhood.
I went and visited a FF for a few hours. That was the closest I have felt to relief in a long time. And not because I have any interest in dating her, I think because it is just so refreshing to talk to someone who understands and cares. Her personality gives me hope that I will find someone way better than my xW. What is interesting, I dated her many years ago. We didn't click, it ended. And we are still friends. This is how healthy people deal with break-ups.
I honestly don't think it is possible for xW to become the person I would want. We had fun together, but she was so unable to emotionally connect, her twisting every word I said when we talked about emotions should have been a sign a long time ago. Her telling the kids last summer I was mean to them should have been the last straw. She was a narcissist more than I ever knew? Why did I stay? Love is blind? Codependence made me stay in a toxic R? All the way back to early years she was controlling me, and I let her. Her telling me about her past when we first met to see if I would stay, unfortunately I passed the test. I read in her personal journal that she had done this to guys before we met, and they would run. Ironic, xW was posting her meme's on FB about how she had been wronged, her past not defining who she is today, etc. POM had posted on FB something about "everyone has demons, we just have to find someone whose demons play well together."
Her telling me I am not allowed to go out with friends. Her telling me "if you won't have kids with me I will find someone who will." Why didn't I run?
Some irony here. I feel like I can't fully let go until I vent this all to xW. I want to unload this all on her. Let her know I was wrong to blame myself, how wrong she was. What good would it do? Probably nothing. Would it help me get over my pain? Would it fix her? Why do I still want to fix her?
I still feel closure will only come when she comes crawling back, so I can see a genuine remorse. What will I do? Will I validate or spit in her face? Or validate and then spit in her face?
So many questions!!! But now on to facing my other fears, and the list is long! I was so content a month before BD, and now I am so scared that I can't figure out what I am going to do with my kids when I have them tomorrow. Someone please tell me I am not the only one who suffers so terribly from codependence!
Someone please tell me I am not the only one who suffers so terribly from codependence!
you are not the only one. you are not alone.
this journey, this struggle is not easy in the slightes...think kicking a drug addiction...that is how NOT easy this struggle is.
you are right there on the verge of taking control of your life again...and i think all these emotions are good to work theough as long as you keep moving forward.
Someone please tell me I am not the only one who suffers so terribly from codependence!
you are not the only one. you are not alone.
Thank you. As many others have posted, I am sorry that you too are here, but still a relief to know I am not the only one.
Originally Posted By: Zephyr
this journey, this struggle is not easy in the slightes...think kicking a drug addiction...that is how NOT easy this struggle is.
you are right there on the verge of taking control of your life again...and i think all these emotions are good to work theough as long as you keep moving forward.
proud of you for opening up to your brother.
you will get theough this and you will thrive!
I hope! I thought I caught a glimpse of a light at the end of the tunnel, but keep losing it.
One thing that is frustrating me. I left everything at the house when I left. The OFP prevented me from getting anything. XW was then able to go on with life as normal without me, substituted her friends in my place, take my toys, all my money, and just continued living. In mediation she insisted on getting everything that had anything to do with the kids. I tried fighting it but was held over a barrel, if I tried fighting it I would be stuck in court for many months and me paying her atty fees. The only logical choice was to give in to get it over with. I am sure she is scared to lose the activities with the kids too, but obviously no concern whatsoever what I am able to do with the kids. She is selfish because of her depression, or because of her problems with separation from me, or that is how she has always been? I'm going to go with the last answer, she has always been selfish.
Unfortunately this is one of my bigger fears... What will I do with my kids? Doing some of the activities with the kids will be extremely difficult without her, unless I find someone else to replace her, either friends or a girlfriend. I have an enormous number of friends, but they are all too busy, or their kids are the wrong age, or they aren't into the same things as I am. just keep looking for friends, keep trying every one every weekend? Or just give up the hobbies and find new ones?
Unfortunately this is one of my bigger fears... What will I do with my kids? Doing some of the activities with the kids will be extremely difficult without her, unless I find someone else to replace her, either friends or a girlfriend.
There is a tremendous amount of activites you csn do with your kids one on one. I spent nearly 3 years basically doing stuff with my boys without wife. she just was not present for them. it is a learning curve, sure but I've found that some of thier favorite memories over last 5 years was just dad being there...not just there really, bit actually present and engaging.
it is my wife's loss that she didn't or couldn't be involved like i did. I have pity for her for that. she broke down last spring...I remeber it, she said how it has been so long and ashe felt so terrible for not being able to be as involved with them. she told me how lucky she was and children are for being such a tremendous father. she could not lie to herself about that despite all of my other 'faults'.
THAT is something you control. being a goidfather figure to them, that nothing your wife or MIL could ever say to them, would hold any sway because they know the truth because you are there for theme when they are with you. period. you control your actions. the kids see it. they absorb all that we do, the learn and grow as a result.
seriously, you can make a list of activites to do with them, even sit down and ask thier input once they see some examples they will come up with more I'm sure.
when I get some time this week, if you want I can give you examples...at work now and lunch will be spent getting license renewals for cars.
you are soooooo on a good path here, i can feel it!
Well, I actually managed to truly enjoy some time today. Went shopping with the kids, bought some recreational stuff for them, stuff we already had but xW will get in the D and I need to replace. I used joint money for it... I have given way more than 1/2 to her, I don't feel bad about it.
In a letter from xW's atty, it was brought up that I said to the kids that the asset division was not fair. I asked the kids if they thought I said that, they said no. So W is making this up completely. S11 is actually who said it to me. So when asking them about this tonight, they said W told them it wasn't fair because I make so much more than she does. What does that have to do with anything? After support she will be making as much as me if she goes full time. And I gave her a 32k check. Dumb! I leave statements up to them, let them bring up what they want, validate, that's it.
Then the kids start telling me she is looking at motorhomes, so they can travel. She's going to buy a 4K motorhomes and travel? With my kids? Scary. And she plans to buy a boat, a truck, etc. She has some big dreams! I'd think she'd be more worried about finding a house.
Oh, bad news, some of the loser friends made up. Bummer.
Here’s one of my favorite conversations, this happened in the middle of the arguing right before she filed the OFP
W: I know, you always say there is something wrong with my brain Me: no, I never said that, we are having a communication problem. The intent of what I say is not what you hear. We need to figure out what is going wrong
Next day W: I can't believe you said there is something wrong with my brain Me: no, you said that, and I said we are having a communication problem
Next day W: I still can't believe you said there is something wrong with my brain Me: no, you said that, and I said we are having a communication problem. Do you remember that or not? W: yeah, I guess I do
Oh how I am going to miss talking to her.
IC guessed that she rehearsed the feeling in her head so many times that she went from thinking that I think that to believing I SAID that.
4 months before BD, I overheard her telling the kids I was mean to them. I texted her, saying I heard her bad-mouthing me to the kids. She texted me back and said "you must be hallucinating."
The kids since BD, I asked them if anyone ever told them I was mean to them. They said "yeah, mom used to say that." Who is hallucinating?
So tempted to write down these examples and give them to her IC. Think it will do any good?
Well, I managed to get in an argument with xW today.... Even with the OFP in place. She started it, LOL.
I get to my house to pick up stuff, 1/4 of the grass is mowed, the rest is knee high. P'd off that she's off running around and leaving the grass like that. That's gonna be fun to knock down by July. I guess I should be grateful she mowed anything?
Next, she has her toxic rumor spreading FF there, and FF's druggy son. And MIL.
She got stuff ready outside, so I couldn't go in house or garage. Thought she forgot first thing, she tells me where it is directly, I say OK. So far so good.
One item I am picking up with just caked with mud. So, I start washing it. Then tell the third party she can wash it. She is paying for the third party, what donI care? She yells to me about how it's not a problem, Inyell back that it is. OK, going downhill fast.
I ask for life jackets, she says in a super snotty tone "they are in the boat." I answered back in a slightly less snotty tone, "Ok." She elevates to even more snotty, like super childish snotty, "OK." Yep, going downhill really fast.
If I was supposed to be DB'ing, my first attempt failed miserably. Between I did try to smile and laugh a little with the third party, trying to keep calm, but forgot all about any ideas of DB'ing.
We yelled back and forth a few times, it wasn't pretty. Her reactions were so childish, and it felt so familiar. I actually never got sad, the entire time. Hate was rolling to the surface, but even with her spewing anger I felt a little connection to her.
So why did the connection still feel there? I guess I always let it roll off when she acted like that. Huh, I learned some stuff about the R right then and there. It reinforced and defined my understanding of the patterns. I would try to de-escalate her anger/sarcasm/defensiveness, though not handled perfectly, and she would escalate it further. I accepted the behavior as being part of who she was, but would tell her I didn't appreciate it. I wasn't a doormat, pretty sure. Though what is ironic is I now feel like I should apologize to her for my behavior today, even though she was being selfish. Maybe I am the doormat? Partially?
I told my mom after that I was glad tha she got to see W's true colors. Simple questions, slightly confrontational, lead to indirect answers and sarcasm. Definitely still playing the victim role again. I played devil's advocate, with my complaints and not letting it affect me at all. Still, I feel good about not letting it consume me for more than one minute. I was polite and friendly to the third party, made a point of making sure W saw it... Not sure my incentive there, still too worried about what she is thinking?
Got my atty invoice. Ouch. Another 6k gone. Over 25k now in atty, mostly due to the OFP slowing everything down. Plus the 32k check I gave her, so 57k!!!!! It would take her 4.5 years to make that much if she put every dime against it. I feel I have lost so much.... I worked so hard, just to give her half my stuff, plus this 57k! Plus the 18k she has spent out of the joint account since BD. Plus 1500+ a month in child support is likely. Plus all the heartache. Even if she came back, even if I could forgive her, we'd never be the same financially, never!
