Zephyr, as usual a well thought out and well put reply.
The bitterness for some I think may be because of continuous reminders. Or continued selfish actions by the ex. I have seen bitter people, and believe me, I don't want to be one of them!
I have not read about the love languages. One step at a time, still working on my overwhelming loneliness and the codependence. I have been reading and listening to lots on it, figured that is the major obstacle at this point since I am not in a R. Most of what I am finding is that one partner is codependent and the other is a narcissist. I can't nail down who did what in my M completely. I have done a few self tests, where I score good. I then redo the test with my understanding of W, she scores worse but still no where near an actual NPD. I actually had more typed but deleted it as it is just rambling, I need to put the thoughts together constructively and more organized before posting.
I have been practicing better parenting skills, and validating is one of the major ones I am implementing, and noticing huge improvements on. My mother is a full blown monster when it comes to this, the best of intents and the very worst tools. Living with her is a nightmare I can't wait to escape, even with all the help she provides, the emotional devastation at this time in my life is overwhelming, so I try to avoid her as much as possible. This has always been the relationship with her. Definitely the source of my codependency. Being I live there, it is challenging. Being I don't have enough close friends, and an introvert, makes it difficult to find anything to do besides pacing up and down the driveway. I need to find something for myself someday.
My M is a mystery to me. I can think of things we both did right, I can think of things we both did wrong. It is an endless list in both directions. She didn't seem present, I didn't seem present. Overall it felt empty. Neither of us sought out a solution until the very end, when I tried to get her to go to MC with me, and she opted for the OFP instead.
The only other thing I can find, is the codependent/NPD issue, but neither of us qualify as the NPD.
Interesting... D paperwork was signed by W, sent to my atty, ready to file.
Also a letter about concern about things I have supposedly said to S11 and D9 about the D. This has come up repeatedly. So W wants us to go to a counselor to discuss, which I agree should happen, but they specify no R talks. I get a continuous list of things from the kids, facts that W has shared with them, and I have trouble answering... It's a challenge but I think I have done OK, it's ridiculous that she's sending messages through the children seemingly intentionally, then reporting it to her atty every time the kids say something that I supposedly said..., which by the time it gets back to me is different, I assume due to perception of children.
So, serious question here... Not sure when this will happen, but this is going to be hard, face to face for the first time in 6 months... I've had no practice. I'm probably going to get angry. I'm probably gonna cry. Maybe both at the same time. I'm panicking... What do I do to prepare? Obviously no R talk both for following the rules, and proper DB'ing. I need to stand up for myself, without being confrontational. It going to be hard to not bring up the OFP... Or do I share the frustration. Or just let the tears out for sympathy. Oh boy, what a desperate loser I feel like.
If it comes up that we need to figure out how to coparent, do I get to unload? "How do we do that in light of this...." And then lay out the OFP open to the page where she says I r@ped her through entire M, the fact that she was claiming the kids aren't safe with me in the OFP, her excessive spending, the suspicious activities that she has been up to including leaving the kids alone New Year's Eve, her leaving the kids on her weekend twice, her loser friends and all the crap the kids see/hear when around them, her greed in mediation, the money wasted on atty fees because of the OFP, what else? Think that will kick her off her high horse?
Or do I take the "nicey nice" approach? I'll talk to IC about it too.
W did an OFP to protect herself from her own weakness? Because she really wanted out? Like, permanently? Even though she showed NO signs 2 weeks earlier? Ironic, just read another thread by Martin5, about how fast they seem to change.
I know how badly you want the how's and whys of everything your wife did and is doing. But it's not going to help you. You have to just deal with what you do have control over.
I'm feeling a little better about myself, but I still feel stuck. I can't "show" DB'ing. I know, I know, DB'ing is supposed to be for me, not W, but leaves me in a position of not being able to do anything to try to repair this mess. As long as this OFP is in place, there is NO hope, only a continuous stream of money pouring out the door, and a semi continuous stream of tears. As long as it is in place, or at least until the D is finalized, I am having a hell of a time with GAL.
Here's the part of DB'ing I'm not getting: People on here have a spouse that betrays them, in one way or another, different for every sitch. The LBS has to do all the work? Just doesn't seem right! It's like accepting blame that we pushed them away, and we have to justify all of their rotten behavior to boot.
If you knew for a fact that your wife was gone and your marriage was over, That there was no hope for reconciliation... what would you do? What could you do so that you would not repeat your mistakes in your next relationship? This is where your focus needs to be. Let your wife deal with her issues and you deal with yours. LBS work is not for getting spouse back. It's for moving forward in a way that is healthy for LBS. once they leave, the chance of them coming back is very small. And if they do, there is a big chance they will just leave again at some point in the future.
On the other side of the argument, sure I wasn't perfect, sure W had a 6 ring circus just packed with crazy monkeys. But it still doesn't justify the actions she is taking. Does it?
It definatly does not. marriage is a committment and your supposed to work on it together. but she doesn't think this way. Only some of us do. Completely out of your control. You can't make her behave in anyway she doesn't want to, regardless of rational. Whoever is less invested in the relationship has all the power. your only shot is to disinvest in relationship and invest in what works for you.
The first couple replies from people more emotionally stable than myself (or at least come across that way in their posts, LOL), like Zephyr, SadHub (SH now?), V, Cadet, JOB, etc... Stating things about how I didn't deserve the way I am being treated makes me feel better about me, doesn't make me feel better about W. But I have to find it in myself to forgive and take the high road? And still try to maintain some hope that she will realize her mistake? After the devastation she left in her wake both emotionally and financially? I don't know, I just don't see ever recovering from that with or without her. I'm scared that I will end up one of those people bitter and alone for the rest of their life!
major red flag OFP. Why are you so scared of being alone for the rest of your life.? Why do you need her? That's not a reason to be with anyone.
I hope you don't end up one of those bitter divorced men either. It's not healthy and it's not attractive. And I understand exactly how you feel because I was mad and resentful and bitter for a really long time too. I almost feel like my anger was an obsession. GAL really helps. Appreciating the things I do have helped. I believe hypnotherapy helped me too with the obsessive thought.
Also from Martin5's thread:
Originally Posted By: Cadet
If you really want to learn there is much information that can be gathered here. Although most people will take my word for it, some need this information to keep moving forward. I know I did.
Knowledge is Power!
Yep, I need to know. But I don't know that it is possible to get the answers without talking to W?
I get to pick up stuff from the house next week, finally. Was supposed to happen within 2 weeks of mediation, will be one day short of 4 weeks when I actually get to go. But at least it is happening.
D9 supposedly said an insult to the daughter of one of W's new loser friends. The whole group of friends now wants nothing to do with W or D9. D9 said the other girl lied, she lies all the time. I told D9 to not feel bad, the problem worked itself out. If this other girl lies all the time, it's probably better that D9 isn't around her.
It is also amazing how immature the friends are about how they chose to deal with it. Well, that's how those kind of people are I guess.
I also told my kids that W deserves to have some better friends, and I hope she finds them.
This has pros and cons.. Pros: - W will no longer be bringing my kids around these losers - W no longer has any friends, severely limiting her GAL efforts, and hopefully cut down on her spending. - Hopefully this eliminate some of the enablers. - Hopefully this will help her hit rock bottom faster so she can start working on her own issues. - W was looking at houses in MY hometown. THe kids say she is now looking at houses in neighboring towns, closer to W's hometown. That would be good, as then I won't have to hear about her actions as much.
Downside: - I don't have joint legal custody yet, she could enroll the kids in a different school and there's nothing I can do about it. That would suck for me, and the kids. Hopefully W is smarter than that, but so far she hasn't impressed me with her decisions. - The fight might not last and she'll return to previous activities. And then all I can do is hope it is just a matter of time that another fight happens.
Another example happened that was a total common sense thing, my mom had to figure out a detail of me picking up stuff from the house that W should have easily, very easily, figured out. I was floored that W didn't figure it out in fact.
She clearly has the IQ of a gnat, way worse than when we were together.
I wish there were ways I could help her hit rock bottom a little faster. Not because I want her to suffer, quite the opposite, because I want her to learn to become a better person. It would certainly help the kids out either way, and maybe turn her back my direction?
I know how badly you want the how's and whys of everything your wife did and is doing. But it's not going to help you. You have to just deal with what you do have control over.
I know, I know.... I am trying to get there, and I am slowly. I think partially because I do understand most of it, it's just hard to accept. One of my FF's who doesn't know that much about my sitch said yesterday "hurting people hurt people." It's hard to imagine. I have felt vengeful at times, even toward W lately, but no way would I follow through with actions based on those feelings.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
If you knew for a fact that your wife was gone and your marriage was over, that there was no hope for reconciliation... what would you do? What could you do so that you would not repeat your mistakes in your next relationship? This is where your focus needs to be. Let your wife deal with her issues and you deal with yours. LBS work is not for getting spouse back. It's for moving forward in a way that is healthy for LBS. once they leave, the chance of them coming back is very small. And if they do, there is a big chance they will just leave again at some point in the future.
I am getting there slowly. And I was with you right up to the end, that they will leave again? I know it happens that they leave again, but I assume only when neither spouse has done any work, or if the LBS allows it too easily?
Originally Posted By: JujuB
It definatly does not. marriage is a committment and your supposed to work on it together. but she doesn't think this way. Only some of us do. Completely out of your control. You can't make her behave in anyway she doesn't want to, regardless of rational. Whoever is less invested in the relationship has all the power. your only shot is to disinvest in relationship and invest in what works for you.
Only partially true? Sometimes the WAW is fully justified, and left someone who was truly abusive? Part of my struggle is that the things I did wrong (the real things, not the ones she made up in the OFP), in my perception are minor, those same things in her perception are major.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
major red flag OFP. Why are you so scared of being alone for the rest of your life.? Why do you need her? That's not a reason to be with anyone.
Definitely the issue I am working on with the most effort. I was severely codependent, no doubt about it. I was having withdrawals something fierce, still am. This has been an issue for me since I was 15.
Originally Posted By: JujuB
I hope you don't end up one of those bitter divorced men either. It's not healthy and it's not attractive. And I understand exactly how you feel because I was mad and resentful and bitter for a really long time too. I almost feel like my anger was an obsession. GAL really helps. Appreciating the things I do have helped. I believe hypnotherapy helped me too with the obsessive thought.
Your right. Our perceptions are so different. It's easy to look back and say hey, "spouses behavior is pretty abusive" and certainly "my behavior was pretty abusive" and it really is sad how badly we can treat the person we love and committed ourselves to. (I still have to find zues' card analogy for you. It's really touching. I remember crying when I read it. I Will try to do so later or tomorrow night) the only thing you really can do is examine the issues that she was upset about and determine whether or not they are things you should be working on. For yourself and for your next relationship (with her or someone new)
Maybe list them out here.
At the same time you have to recognize things your wife could do that are dangerous to you (like orders of protection) and be prepared to prevent them. Vanillas advice is amazing regarding this topic. And I am sure she could help you with any questions. Important to be educated regarding this.
One thing I can say, is that you have to stop focusing on all the things she is doing that you find "stupid". She is her own person and is going to make her own choices regardless of whether they are up to a certain level of intellect. This is a really insulting way of referring to the person that you married. It would be like calling your spouse ugly. Instead, try to look at her choices objectively and then if you disagree figure out how to handle it appropriatly, but also with your childrens interests at heart... Through an attorney, appropriate communication etc.
You guys are no longer a team unit so helping her reach rock bottom or helping her to become a better person is not your responsibility right now. Helpe yourself become a better person.
I am not really sure of how to handle codependency. In my relationship, husband and I led completely separate lives so this was not really an issue for me. In fact him leaving, did not really change my life in the slightest so I think I am mentally having an easier time then others. I know there are books out there. Are you comfortable sharing with the board? I know many people on here have coped with this as well and might be able to help.
I only tried a little bit of counseling and I didn't love it. My main issue is anxiety and obsessive thoughts. I am someone that doesn't even like to take Advil, so meds were not an option for me either. I began to recognize that my thoughts regarding husband (anger thoughts, thoughts of him cheating) were more obsessive in nature then anything else. So I went to 4 sessions with a hypnotherapist. I am completely amazed at the way it worked for me. She basically just talked to me. It was almost like meditation but a lot easier. Again, I cannot believe how nicely it helped me even with other things like school shootings and potential illnesses. I never thought it possible, but I actually no longer care if there is another woman because that's about him, not me. (And I was REALLY devastated by this obsessive thought) and doesn't affect my life in the slightest.
I ponder way too much, about my part in the demise of the M. I just can't find the pieces to fit them together properly. We were just so... what's the word? Absent? We didn't talk to each other that much, we barely tried. We'd talk about day to day stuff, but I wonder if we both avoided some things because we knew it would go bad if we discussed it. Who made it go bad? I don't know.
It's frustrating, the things that she has done lately are not thought out at all, and every time I hear something like that, reminds me of what life was like. I keep listing the things I am frustrated about it, but I still want her back. I don't get it! I wonder if I am just trying too hard to convince myself I'll be better off without her, trying too hard to detach.
I know I can't help her with anything... I do want her to realize, grow, and come back. I think? Rock bottom sounds like a critical part of that path, and is the only reason I am hoping it is coming soon. Quite a few people now have told me they think she'll come back. Will I want that person when she returns? I need to stop trying to answer that question too I guess.
I love going to IC most of the time. I wish sometimes IC listened to me more, gave less advice. She is blunt, maybe that is good. Seems she doesn't totally get "me" but I don't know if I want to start over with someone else. Some of her advice is stufff I already know and/or doesn't seem pertinent. Seems 1 hour a week is not enough, every once in a while her next appt will cancel and I get 2 hours, that is much better.
Not sure what to add on codependency that I haven't already written. J, you sound like a normal healthy person. What you describe is NOT me. I lived every breath for my W, spent every minutes I could with her, I couldn't stand being away from her, I never did things without her, she was my security blanket. Up until the last year, I seemed to be that for her also. I've mentioned a few things I have read on the subject, and videos I have watched. If someone has questions on my journey or specific questions I am willing to answer. Or pointers for me, I am all ears.
