Hello all, Been lurking a few weeks and tried to write this post a few times but every time it just drags on and on. Figured I would just start with the basics.
Summary Husband(me) and Wife in upper 30s, Married 16 years, no kids (mutual choice). Both of us have dealt with some degree of depression off and on, but especially her. Classic negative feedback cycle of her nagging/criticizing, and me becoming more distant. Both of us expecting the other person to change to meet our oh-so-reasonable requirements.
4/1 BD: Wife wants an Open Relationship. ILYBINILWY. Wife admits to having planned how she could cheat on me, but says "it never happened" (very indirect wording). W is dealing with depression, and increasing exhaustion/fatigue. We both had lost quite a bit of weight last couple years; I backslid a bit, but she had kept getting in better shape. We have some very frank conversations - she says she has been getting a lot more notice from guys (what she felt she hadn't been getting from me) and really enjoys it. She wants to be able to flirt, kiss, etc and just do what she wants. 4/7 Signs of EA: I become suspicious, snoop, and discover EA going back months. OM with girlfriend + 2 kids, being pursued by W but OM seems to want to keep things EA 95% of the time. Evidence of a couple nights things started getting physical over past six months, but dumb luck and/or his reluctance intervened both times. W Diary indicates she is very frustrated he seems to be avoiding PA. I decide to not confront, as I want her to at least see the new me before she has any sort of ultimatum... the old me would make anyone look good.
My reactions... First couple days after BD: We have some very frank conversations. I somehow manage to remain calm. I tell her I don't think Open Relationship would work, but since it seems so important to her I am willing to think about it. I spend a day or two in shock, hit bottom, but bounce back hard. I started having some serious introspection and coming to terms with some of my negative behaviors and patterns that had led me to a place where I was very unhappy in many aspects of my life (marriage, work, social) and decided I was no longer content with that. Next week: I pursue W hardcore. Send her 2 dozen roses, start cleaning the house like a mofo, knocking off honey-do-list items, cooking her dinner, telling her a unique reason I love her every morning, bought her a necklace, point out all the positive changes I'm making, etc. It was predictably having no positive effect, and she said she felt smothered. Next few weeks: I give up soda. I start eating healthy. Jog every morning. Refocus on my exercise and martial arts classes. Start private dance lessons and reading a book on 'small talk' to help tackle my social issues. I tell W basically "I thought about it but decided I am not comfortable with an Open Relationship and think that would only make things worse; I consider marriage to mean monogamy, and if she wants to pursue things with other men then we will need to look into getting separated." I discover MWD and DB and choose that as my gameplan. I stop pursuing the W. I try to still be upbeat and positive and friendly, but aim to only reciprocate the energy she puts out. --------------- So, that's a quick synopsis. The DB/GAL/detachment thing sounds so clear, but actually pulling it off is a struggle every single day.
There are a lot of things I am grateful for, but at the same time she is still pursuing the OM. Less, but still making overtures. - W is still around and we see each other often which is giving her lots of opportunities to notice the changes I am making. - As I have been GAL'ing, W has definitely noticed and commented and has been increasingly friendlier and the depression/exhaustion symptoms she had have been steadily lessening. She keeps suggesting things for us to do together, and when she asks e.g. my weekend plans and I tell her I am doing XYZ she will invite herself along, and actually have a good time. - There have been genuine moments between us, her reaching out to touch me, or suggesting we cuddle on the couch, or saying nice compliments. At times it feels like she may be "dipping her toes in the water" so to speak. - She has been much much less hyper critical of me. Even when I do something the "wrong" way, I can tell she is going out of her way to state things very constructively.
Honestly, I've been working with a phone coach and keeping a log of positive changes and it's almost miraculous considering how solidly she was in 'zombie mode' right after BD. But as I said she is still in contact with the "just friends" OM. The frequency of online contact has decreased and mostly platonic emails, and they haven't seen each other in person since before BD, but she has still emailed him a couple times teasing/suggesting PA. He frankly seems to be avoiding her at the moment, although I'm pretty sure if he were to change his mind she would still make the leap to PA.
Her last few diary entries talk about being torn, and hating feeling like this. She mentions only feeling like he pays attention to her when he is drunk or bored. She hates having a desperate feeling to be with him... grows tired yet hangs on to the mere hint of hope of getting together, but that he loves his kids.
So [censored] up. All the comments about WAW not being herself anymore... adrift, irrational, fantasy-driven, like a junkie seeking the next fix... are so spot on. It is especially hard for me to see, because on the one hand I see her slowly becoming more and more like herself, and she legitimately has a good time hanging out with the new me when she suggests something or tags along... laughing and smiling and even playfully flirting/touching me sometimes. Yet she's still pining over an alcoholic father-of-two cheating on his wife, who will sometimes take days to respond to her emails.
She actually scheduled a solo counseling session for the coming weekend. I am hopeful that might help her start sorting through some of her issues.
---------- Moving forward, I am still aiming to keep GALing, not pursuing, and working on detaching from her mood. I am working on doing less snooping, because it really does tend to couple my mood to whatever her mood is at the moment... when days go by without contact it is a little boost, but then when contact happens it's like a kick in the nuts.
I have read on the boards about how some consider WAWs to need a different approach than WWs. My phone coach feels like my W is being receptive to what I'm doing and since she hasn't completely distanced herself that responding to her initiations with some of the appreciation and playfulness she seeks from OM is a good thing. I feel like what I have been doing has been having positive results - both for myself in terms of the kind of man I am striving to be and for the wife's interactions with me - so am hoping I am on the right course. I try to tell myself that I am preparing myself for an engaging positive relationship with Mrs Right, whether that ends up being a new better relationship with my Wife or with someone else down the road. I'm open to other's outside opinions though.
Some much needed help via Music In case it helps others, I will mention that one of the things that has really been critical in helping me try to maintain and/or fake a positive/upbeat attitude is music. I made a couple different playlists of upbeat music I like, and listen to it when I need a pick me up. I go out of my way to sing along, and moving physically with the music really helps too. Especially on some of the days when I'm at home and trying to not pursue the wife, it can be a real challenge to be distant without being frigid or an emotionless rock. Putting my playlist on the speakers and singing along to myself helps me fake it till I make it.
Me, WW - Upper 30s BD - Apr 1 2016 EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away) Confronted wife about EA - May 17 Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Reading your story, I can't help wondering if your W chose on purpose an unavailable man for her EA? That it reflects her hesitation in stepping out of the M?
I hope you continue to get good results - it sounds like she is responding really, really well to what you're doing. Your story generally sounds much more hopeful than many others I read here. I'll keep my fingers crossed for continued success and that she comes to her senses.
Please be very alert to what kind of counselor she ends up with. Not all are good and quite a few have the attitude of 'do what you feel like to make yourself happy (even if it means leaving your family in ashes)'.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Thanks Painter. I try to stay as upbeat as I can and focus on the little positive changes, but it's rough when we'll seem to have a great weekend and then we get home and Sunday evening she's emailing OM. Trying to manage my expectations and not expect everything to happen overnight, but the rollercoaster is real...
Me, WW - Upper 30s BD - Apr 1 2016 EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away) Confronted wife about EA - May 17 Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Had an... interesting... talk with my wife last night. Still don't know what to think. Very limited light conversation during the evening. After the lights went out and we're lying in bed she told me she was sorry that she still didn't know where we stood. She started talking about her emotions and some of what she's going through. I tried hard to just listen and validate/empathize and felt I did ok but some of the stuff was really hard to hear... e.g. about her having a strong urge to meet other people and can't stop thinking about it. She doesn't know I found out about her EA and pursuit of OM so I think she talks about "other people" as a pseudonym for him.
She continues to portray that OM is just a good friend. She expressed frustration that he's too worried about his kids and his paranoid wife to want to hang out with her. That he suggested a year ago they should hang out since both live in the same area, but then he seems to never want to do anything.
One of her statements was about "her feeling so ignored by me, but then getting in better shape and getting her confidence back. Part of her thinks I should let her explore things with other people as punishment for that. She realizes that would not be nice, but sometimes she doesn't want to be nice... sometimes she wants to be a slut."
How the hell do you respond to that?
I was close to saying "well, let me make that easier for you let's just get divorced and you can do whatever the [censored] you want!" or telling her snarkily maybe she could just move in with OM and his W and then everything would be perfect.
I was reeling... said something like "I hear you; I'm not sure how to respond to that and it is very hard for me to hear, but I hear how much of a struggle it is for you."
She talks about feeling like she knows she'll never truly be happy with anyone so she wants to just do whatever makes her happy in the moment.
During the conversation where she did most of the talking I managed to slip in a couple things that she seemed receptive to. I apologized for making her feel so lonely in the past - that it must have been so painful for her to feel alone even when I'm in the same room (because I'm on my electronics) or when we're out together in public and I'm zoning out instead of being with her. My phone coach had been very helpful in helping me arrive at a better understanding of what I had done that was most painful to her, and I think the apology resonated with her.
During her complaints about "friend" OM and him saying he wants to hang out but being so unavailable I mentioned that I understand that's frustrating and I feel people generally reveal their true priorities through their actions. She said "Yea, I guess I'm not much of a priority to him."
Although I managed to avoid any big dramatics, stupidly after the long rolling conversation and her seeming to open up so much, I somehow decided it would be a good idea to semi-confront her about OM. I told her that with me out of my funk I had been noticing some of her behaviors and how she describes things, and while I wasn't sure what exactly the situation was it was pretty clear to me that she wished she could be more than just friends with OM. She denied, said she knew he would be bad for her, that he loved his kids too much, that he just makes her feel like one of the guys, he's kind of an [censored], and "it's not like she wants to [censored] him". I just listened and maintained eye contact. Backed off and didn't pursue the conversation more... just said "Whatever the situation is there, I hope you're eventually able to figure out what will make you happy."
In hindsight, I feel I would have been better off not bringing him up. Really I should have known that, but in the moment... I guess I was hoping she might admit to at least a little bit of feeling there so I could set a boundary. I should have just been strong; maybe said something that simply reinforced who I was rather than trying to get her to reveal what he was. Something that subtly reinforced me as a beacon. Missed opportunity.
Honestly, anytime I've mentioned him whatsoever, it has never worked to my benefit.
Me, WW - Upper 30s BD - Apr 1 2016 EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away) Confronted wife about EA - May 17 Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
I'll refrain from offering advice because I waffle between hard and soft responses to the WW (I'm leaning toward harder today). But, what I will say is that the nebulous "friend" moniker is just to make you feel like it's an innocuous relationship. If it's negatively affecting your marriage, then it is not innocuous. Keep that in mind and don't let her talk you into the friend bull$hit; he ain't no friend of the marriage and neither is she right now.
You did a great job listening and validating. Stay disciplined with that. I keep seeing people here that regret when they aren't disciplined and they say things they know they shouldn't. It isn't fair that she gets to say hurtful things and you just listen, but none of your situation is fair. We all have a tough time with that.
You are also doing a great job with GAL. Keep focused on that.
I'm really really considering exposing my W's EA soon - letting her know that I know. I'm aiming to get another phone coach session ASAP, but I could really also use a sanity check from board members.
Quick recap: BD/ILYBINILWY/Asking about an Open Relationship: 4/1 Snooped and learned of EA (and pursuit of PA): 4/7 but I have not confronted. Started DBing and GALing around 4/7 too.
So, I started reading ... last night, reading select chapters and it's really resonating with me. And naturally there are big similarities with elements of DB and nuggets from vets like Sandi2.
I feel I've been doing a decent job DBing and GALing, and there have been a lot of positive changes with WW: both in her suggesting we do things together and enjoying herself, apologizing about making me go through this, and in her noticing and complimenting the positive changes I've been making. Almost all interactions are initiated by her. I set a boundary about not being ok with Open Relationship and marriage being a commitment and monogamous. I feel like she might be coming out of the fog based on the positive changes, and her online contact with OM has seemed to be getting less frequent and often platonic (last contact 5/7, and frankly it seems like OM with wife+2 kids may be avoiding her) but she's still been sporadically pursuing.
So on the one hand it seems like things are improving and I don't want to jeopardize that. But at the same time the consensus from vets here seem to be that she won't truly be capable of re-entering a healthy relationship with me until she has her own reckoning, snaps out of the fog, and chooses to really commit to winning me back. Either way I'm not interested in letting her back into the marriage unless she truly commits and is willing to put in the work, but I'm not sure which path gives the best chance of success.
Any thoughts? Am I crazy to confront her at this point when things seem like they have been improving, or has it all been "cake eating" and now is the time for me to Expose and lay down the law? (Previously phone coach had expressed concern that exposing may make her more focused on the anger of me snooping rather than her own actions.)
Last edited by Cristy; 05/12/1610:39 AM. Reason: As stated in our OnLine Community Board Rules, we do not allow recommendations of non-DivorceBusting books / websites / blogs etc.
Me, WW - Upper 30s BD - Apr 1 2016 EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away) Confronted wife about EA - May 17 Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
Quick update. My phone coach turned out to be available this morning.
On discussing my overall situation and the apparent progress so far I ultimately agreed that ideally I would like her to be the one to come forward, rather than me having to drag it out and giving her the cover of refocusing on me as the bad guy for snooping.
I mentioned being nervous about "cake eating". She said to trust my gut... my gut feels like her apologies, conflictedness, and the interactions she initiates have been genuine, so I'm going to stay the course for now.
Keep focusing on DB/GAL, and staying friendly when she initiates or wants to tag along. Being occasionally a little playful/flirty since she has been receptive/reciprocating to that in moderation.
The book had a quote about "Whatever happens, it will be for the best" - that resonated with me, and has been helping me be upbeat today.
Last edited by Cristy; 05/12/1610:41 AM. Reason: As stated in our OnLine Community Board Rules, we do not allow recommendations of non-DivorceBusting books / websites / blogs etc.
Me, WW - Upper 30s BD - Apr 1 2016 EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away) Confronted wife about EA - May 17 Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
