These were the things my husband was unhappy with and voiced.
1. I did not work full time
So it wasn't agreed up front you would be SATM?
2. I was always negative. I would have done this differently and am working on this now. It's even more challenging now because of circumstances, but something I am really working on.
Negative in which ways? How are you working on it?
3. My anxiety. My fears and obsessions of illnesses and children's safety etc. were very real to me but annoying to husband. I would have worked on it. I think it also has something to do with negative thinking.
Did you have IC, do CBT?
4. Housework. If I lived in my own house/apt this would be a priority because it's nice to be organized.
Hmmmmm, think if I were H this might irate me, so could you have negotiated a housekeeper?
5. We cannot communicate with each other. ****** THIS WAS HIS MAJOR COMPLAINT. I know I would get angry and instead of communicating appropriately i would just make a nasty passive aggressive comment. This is something I have done a complete 180 on. No more comments.
Not communicating is a two way issue!
6. I did not dress up for him. I always went out in sweatpants. I have been doing this now, but he doesn't see me anyway so it makes no difference.
It makes a difference, trust me it does. This should be for you not your H. I suggest some self worth issues in this. Is there? Why would you not want to be at your best?
My grandma had an expression go be dressed to the shoes, every day. I know when I am down this is one of the first to go.
This is a big big issue.
Things that husband did not voice, but I would have done differently
1. More flirting
See 6 above.
2. Accepted him for what he was. When I needed him to change in order for family to function better as unit, I would have approached it differently so it would come across less as a criticism more as a team decision making. Communicate without criticism. I was way too demanding. Needed to let him come to me, instead of making demands. This would make me come across as way more attractive.
Great insight. Lesson learned?
3. Combined finances so we would be working as team. This transparency would have made for less resentments on both our parts.
Not a deal breaker in my view.
4. Would have went out with my friends more. This would have made me less clingy and demanding of his time.
GAL plan please.
5. In my mind I unfairly blamed him for things that were not necessarily his fault. This led to resentments
You don't get blamed for your thoughts or resentments. Think and resent away.
6. Listened to him more. I remember going way overboard with kids parties. He tried to talk to me about it and I just did not listen. Then after party was over I realized he was right. I admitted to him that he was, but should have listened more and implemented.
Negotiation not capitulation.
At this point, all he wants is space from me. And basically that is what I am doing. I stopped asking him about what his plans are regarding reconciliation, etc. I am remaining polite and cooperative when I can. If there was anything else I could do I would do it.
Your plans please
As always no V is an option
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
J, I can't speak to your WAH, but just from my perspective...
When you speak like you did in your last post, owning your mistakes, striving to do better, regretting the hurt you caused H, and saying that if you could do it again you would have heard what he had to say and done what you could to have made it more of a priority...this is very, very appealing. I find myself thinking "Boy, if I could find a woman like this maybe I wouldn't rule out the possibility of another relationship one day".
When I hear you talk about how screwed up H is, how unreasonable he was during the M, how he was impossible to please, how the issues are obviously his since he walked, excusing your behavior because of kids or problems, etc, that's when I find myself thinking "I couldn't feel safe partnering with someone like that".
Now, those are just thoughts, that doesn't mean it's true. Your H isn't me. And as I've learned in 2015, nothing is black and white. You're not a catch or a failure. You're not perfect or horrible. And a good partner will love you, cherish you, and STAY BY YOUR SIDE for better or for worse, and not bail on you because your personal growth didn't happen on their timelines.
I simply believe that the more time you can spend with the perspective you had in the last write up the better. I am superstitious in that I believe that what you think and hold in your heart will come through, somehow, someway, and H will feel it. It's good that you bite your tongue instead of making snide comments. What would be even better is if you somehow could maintain this perspective so when H said/did something that would normally make you WANT to make a passive aggressive comment, instead you were truly not bothered because you saw things from a compassionate, safe, secure, detached, and confident standpoint. In other words, it's the difference between controlling your temper and not getting angry at him for being him.
Again, not possible to stay there all the time, but I think that's a good place to strive for.
That all said, I will reiterate that walking from a marriage is a horrible thing, and I am not defending his choices in any way. I think it's totally reasonable to be disgusted with this choice. I am not asking you not to feel that way, nor to stifle any of the feelings that come about it.
I do think that compartmentalizing is a good thing. In other words, if you can view him as an overall good person that just made one horrible choice, that might be more useful than to think that because he made this horrible choice he has been a horrible person all along and rewrite history. That is why I try to tell LBSs not to diagnose their spouses.
Anyway, this is just what I do with XW. I think she is an attractive, smart, caring, fairly mature woman, that could've been a great partner, had she not had the fatal flaw of being willing to hit the BD button when things got difficult. She has never looked back so clearly this is a deal breaker. Still, I have separated the crime of filing D from the rest of who she is. Doesn't mean I want her in my life as a friend, but I can see that the years we spent together were a positive overall in my life, and that the love we had was real, and that she is a good person that has fallen for the divorce trap in our society, and I have some compassion for her. And I definitely see where I contributed to the situation that led her to that decision, even if I see her making that decision as a failing.
J, none of this is written in DR, just my thoughts, reactions, and sharing the goals I have for myself in my interactions with WAS as well. I'm a huge fan. And when I read your last post I just want to tell you to keep on that road, because it's super awesome.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
These were the things my husband was unhappy with and voiced.
1. I did not work full time
So it wasn't agreed up front you would be SATM?
Actually, after kids born husband had told me not to go back to work. When we moved in with parents, we were doing pretty badly. I kept asking that we move out and get an apt (we could have afforded this on husbands full time and my part time salary) and husband said not unless I worked full time. It was logistically impossible at this time, because of childcare. When I asked him to explain how, his response was "other people do it. Figure it out"
2. I was always negative. I would have done this differently and am working on this now. It's even more challenging now because of circumstances, but something I am really working on.
Negative in which ways? How are you working on it?
I believe I focused a lot on the bad aspects of our lives and ignored the many good things going on. Then things get worse, and I look back and say "I can't believe I complained then when things were so much better". For example when we lived in apartment I complained that we didn't have house. Then when we lived in parents house I longed for that apt. Etc. etc. same with relationship. Wasn't so bad, I focused on negative, husband withdrew, I focused on that and pursued, now husband left to get space, I pursued we are very close to divorce.
How am I working on it? 1st: identifying and acknowledging it 2nd: trying some hypnosis techniques 3rd: faking it till I make it by controlling my verbal responses with goal of changing my thought processes. 4th: trying to read or watch positive and sometimes spiritual messages more frequently. 5th: staying away from the news and the typical depressing books and authors I am draw to. I think I need to stop reading some of the incoming posts regarding infidelity as well. I still have no proof of affair and when I read these stories, I am living these experiences. (I would do this when I come across different types of illnesses or horrific stories that happen to children as well)
I welcome any other ideas
3. My anxiety. My fears and obsessions of illnesses and children's safety etc. were very real to me but annoying to husband. I would have worked on it. I think it also has something to do with negative thinking.
Did you have IC, do CBT?
i do not. I tried in past, but found that talking about my issues didn't really help or change the underlying problem, because there are always new issues or anxieties that come up. Was taught about using subway imagery to get in habit of letting my thoughts go, but it's not enough.
4. Housework. If I lived in my own house/apt this would be a priority because it's nice to be organized.
Hmmmmm, think if I were H this might irate me, so could you have negotiated a housekeeper?
. That would be divine.
5. We cannot communicate with each other. ****** THIS WAS HIS MAJOR COMPLAINT. I know I would get angry and instead of communicating appropriately i would just make a nasty passive aggressive comment. This is something I have done a complete 180 on. No more comments.
Not communicating is a two way issue!
6. I did not dress up for him. I always went out in sweatpants. I have been doing this now, but he doesn't see me anyway so it makes no difference.
It makes a difference, trust me it does. This should be for you not your H. I suggest some self worth issues in this. Is there? Why would you not want to be at your best?
My grandma had an expression go be dressed to the shoes, every day. I know when I am down this is one of the first to go.
This is a big big issue.
I realize now, that I would have been valued by husband more if I made this effort. I guess the truth is I became lazy and took it for granted that he would be attracted to me no matter what. (I did always exercise though and I did dress ok for work) Husband would politely try to convince me to wear more tight fitting clothing, but I just did not pay attention to his requests. the truth is, I love being comfortable in sneakers and sweat pants and I do not like the feel of wearing make up. It was easy with kid to be able to get ready quick and to be able to keep up with them. I Was definatly depressed during past years.
Things that husband did not voice, but I would have done differently
1. More flirting
See 6 above.
2. Accepted him for what he was. When I needed him to change in order for family to function better as unit, I would have approached it differently so it would come across less as a criticism more as a team decision making. Communicate without criticism. I was way too demanding. Needed to let him come to me, instead of making demands. This would make me come across as way more attractive.
Great insight. Lesson learned?
. In some ways, I believe so. I am doing a lot more listening, although I recognize that I am having trouble accepting that he left us and ended marriage. I understand that he has the right to do so.
3. Combined finances so we would be working as team. This transparency would have made for less resentments on both our parts.
Not a deal breaker in my view.
. I think in our case, this brought on a lot of resentment. I had no idea what he was spending money on and he had no idea what I was. We needed to combine finances so we could view ourselves as more of a team unit instead of 2 separate entities working for separate goals and savings.
4. Would have went out with my friends more. This would have made me less clingy and demanding of his time.
GAL plan please.
5. In my mind I unfairly blamed him for things that were not necessarily his fault. This led to resentments
You don't get blamed for your thoughts or resentments. Think and resent away.
6. Listened to him more. I remember going way overboard with kids parties. He tried to talk to me about it and I just did not listen. Then after party was over I realized he was right. I admitted to him that he was, but should have listened more and implemented.
Negotiation not capitulation.
At this point, all he wants is space from me. And basically that is what I am doing. I stopped asking him about what his plans are regarding reconciliation, etc. I am remaining polite and cooperative when I can. If there was anything else I could do I would do it.
Your plans please
. Regarding husband, I have no plans as of yet. I am just taking it day by day. I really have only these options...
1. File for divorce. maybe it would be enough to make him come around, but if it doesn't I have to be ready to proceed. this would benefit me financially and give me more structure and stability.
2. Just wait in limbo and proceed as is. This can go on forever as the status quo serves husband well.
I have to think more about this.
Regardless, I am well aware that our marriage has no chance unless BOTH of us really want it to. At this point my husband does not.
I know I have flaws that contributed to an imperfect marriage. I know husband has flaws that contributed to an imperfect marriage. But in my mind, marriage is imperfect because people are imperfect. I never got married expecting things would be perfect. But I did get married expecting we would stay married regardless of our issues, because if not, why get married in the first place?
I am aware that just because I think this, it does not make it true because it takes two people to make it so.
If husband bailed on me once, what's to say he won't do it again because his beliefs about marriage are obviously different from mine? What if we reconcile because I change and become less critical less negative And dress up again. What then happens if down the line, I get sick or seriously injured or gain weight or if I don't die and get old or if I become less then perfect? Husband has demonstrated that he will not remain committed.
J, you are making my point for me. I 100% agree that the ability to walk from a marriage is a monumental issue, and could be a deal breaker.
My only other point is that leave it at that. The rest of his issues were the imperfections you were prepared to work around and navigate through with him. I'd rather you see him as one imperfect human that you would've liked to have maintained a marriage with if he hadn't had the fatal flaw of walking, rather than a horrible person all around because of the laundry list of his imperfections.
It may not seem like it matters, but I think this is a positive way of viewing it.
Thanks for the reply and hang in!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
My goal is to be more positive in my thinking yet I am consumed with all the negatives of my situation and my husband. And yes, it is being consumed because those thoughts are with me much of the time.
I thought those thoughts were part of me trying to make myself feel better. Let me think of all the bad things he has done to hurt me, so the loss is less. But it actually doesn't help to make me hurt less. I think the thoughts are more of an obsession or addiction.
I had an initial consult with a hypnotherapist a few days ago. It was a great match because she had similar experiences to me (single mom when she was younger, , anxiety, upbringing based on fear and negativity). We had one short session and the rest of the day the thoughts were no where near as prevalent as usual. when playing with my son I was more focused on him as opposed to my thoughts. So I have hope with this. I look forward to next session and to receiving "homework" from her.m
I think me diagnosing husband comes from trying to understand what made him capable of walking away from us. Not just me, but the fatherhood issue troubles me. It's hard to just accept it for this reason more then anything. It's more then a rejection of me, it's a rejection of family and this hurts.
I do frequently look back on the things I did in our relationship. The one thing I never want to be is someone that has no self awareness or lives in denial. I always strive to be honest with myself, especially when it comes to my short comings. I feel much regret and in no way do I want this to be for nothing.
We had one of those arguments that just make no sense. I basically asked husband for favor with babysitting. Asked him to keep kids for 3 to 4 extra hours this weekend. He couldn't do it. I got annoyed and it escalated. I just couldn't let it go.
I was annoyed because when I was sick and asked for help, he couldn't. When he was sick and asked for help I did. when he needed me to change schedule I did. He sees kids only 4 days a month. 3 extra hours would not be a big deal. He said he has too much work to do. Then he said he would do it, but I would have to pick them up (extra 40 minutes there and back for me which I wanted to avoid because I will be doing a lot of driving that day). He acted like he did this huge big favor for me by taking this upcoming weekend, but it would have been his weekend anyway if we had not switched earlier weekend for him (I had asked him about it a while ago too)
So I called him on it.
It became a whole thing about how I couldn't compromise and he always had to compromise. That we can't get along.
I know I prooved him right but at time I didn't care.
Then he said that I said "if I had it my way he would never see the kids". This is a lie and I said I never said that. He kept insisting that I did. Then I asked him to tel me the specifics.... He then said I told him "I never want to lose time with them on the weekend". Which I did say.
The two sentences have completely different meanings and he has been hearing and telling everyone I said something completely different. At least he admitted it with me after I questioned it.
Led into relationship talks.
At the end of conversation, I ended up feeling guilty. he is right in that after kids were born, I did put him last. I brought up how he withdrew afterwards and it was too late for me to do anything. He admitted it.
It was a really bad conversation. He was saying how he says blue and I say red and how it is impossible for us to get along. That we had no foundation to build on because our marriage had been so bad for so long.
He is now ready and knows it's not emotionally charged. I said of course it's less emotional. He has slowly detached and withdrew so there would be no emotions.
He is right though. We were always frusturated with each other. Neither of us were able to communicate and work together and I guess we still can't. I would like to blame him, but I guess it's me as well. Am I that incapable of learning.?
This part of conversation really is bothering me right now...
We were both throwing things out there to make each other feel guilty. I reminded him how he wasn't there for me during this really awful part of a miscarriage less then year before BD. (I had to self induce it because fetus heartbeat stopped, but my body didn't know) I called him at work while doing it and i remember how he seemed annoyed because he was busy. Today, He admitted to being annoyed when I had called him at work.
He said it was because I had wished for the miscarriage and he was hurt that I wished for it. Earlier in the pregnancy I did wish for a miscarriage only because I was diagnosed with cancer and was afraid of having to make a choice when fetus was older. When I ended up miscarrying it was devastating to me. Especially since I never needed to undergo treatment. The Surgery was enough and cancer ended up being early stage. I am sickened that i had wished for it.
Right now I am thinking 1. He really was annoyed with me that I called him while he was at work. (At the time I thought he was, but wasn't sure. I remember he was acting like I was being really needy and emotional). 2. The way he threw in to our conversation the reminder that I wished for a miscarriage was pretty cruel and manipulative.
2 hours ago I was feeling pretty guilty and like a failure. I have been crying for a while and unsure why. But now I am thinking that was a (censored) thing to say but was I starting it by playing victim role or entitled to be pissed that he was that withdrawn and selfish at a really bad time. Am I playing a victim card by even telling this story? I am truly not trying to. Just questioning whether I am crazy.
Sorry to hear about this meltdown J. Not much fun.
We all care for you and are here with you now.
Don't be hard on yourself at this moment. It won't change anything for the better. You have work to do, so do all of us. Beating yourself up isn't doing the work. It is actually making things worse. So breathe, find a sense of humor, and laugh at how difficult this stuff is.
As for advice, I would say drop the score keeping from the R.
One time I was at a pool tournament and my friend told me "I would've won that match, but I made four mental mistakes". I replied "Unless you want to include 'counting mental mistakes you're making' as a mental mistake, in which you made five mental mistakes"...I've always been a punk.
Point is, score keeping is a mistake. If you go back in time to the absolute bottom of your marriage, I mean seriously, the worst moment, miscarriage, bad marriage, etc, and want to use that as a measuring stick of the relationship or of who's right or wrong, well, I don't know who was right or wrong back then, but I'd say you're wrong to do so at this moment. Whether you're working on R or working on D, either way, it doesn't help you, him, or your family. Start to work on letting that stuff go and forgiving him for being flawed. And forgive yourself for being flawed!
As for scheduling, drop your expectations of your H. It can be done. You have certain ideas of what a good father or a good husband or a good ex husband would do, and when he doesn't live up to them you get angry. Look, he gets to do what he wants. You don't have to like it, but you don't get to control his behavior. You only get to control your reaction to it. Instead of focusing on his behavior, focus on your reactions and expectations. That's what you can control.
As to the motivation behind his behavior, I can speculate. Remember what my DB coach taught me. That in intimate relationships where someone is doing something aimed at you, you can tell their motivation by how you feel.
If you feel irritated, they want attention. If you feel angry/hurt, they want revenge. If you feel powerless, they are feeling powerless. If you feel insufficient, they feel insufficient.
My guess is that you felt angry and powerless. He probably has felt powerless for a long time, and so in turn he is using the power he has autonomously to restate his boundaries, independence, and show that it isn't all about you, he has a voice too. And he's doing it even when it's a bit of a jerk thing to do, simply to prove a point, and maybe even as a little bit of pay back and revenge. It's not hard to understand why he might feel powerless. He's been basically saying this all along by talking about how hurt he was when the courts were involved. Right or wrong we're talking core stuff, and I think to him court=loss of power, he equated it to you using the legal system to unanimously take control of the situation and he felt violated and powerless. Right or wrong, that's how he felt. To me this is his reaction to those feelings, trying to reinstate his personal power and not be bullied or diminished. And I think he could perceive you as using the kids to continue to try to control him or his life, and he's resisting.
I'm not saying it's right, only that if you wonder what's going through his mind to generate such unreasonable behavior, there it is. And while I don't condemn you for protecting yourself legally, the real reason the court thing hurt so much is that he clearly felt diminished and powerless for a long time, and now he's bruised and broken there. You don't have to care, you don't have to tip toe around him, do your thing, just know that he isn't crazy, he's wounded. He's telling you he's felt violated for a long time so be sensitive to actions that could come across as controlling or don't be surprised when he reacts.
So once again, go back to the beginning. Detach. No expectations. Focus on yourself. And cut yourself some slack. When I say all of this stuff I'm not scoffing at you for making mistakes, I'm actually trying to acknowledge how easy it is to be in this spot. Forgive yourself, take care of yourself. I've pasted it before but I'll end with the quote that carried me through a period when I felt like a failure. You're awesome, we all think so, and you're going to be ok J. Zues promise.
When you expect it least, the ego, declared dead, will surge into your mind, and in an instant you will seem so far removed from Tao as heaven from earth.
Has it ever happened to you? Don't despair. Let it go. Do what comes next.
Accepting failure is a humbling experience akin to enlightenment. In an instant you will discover that heaven and earth are one and that you have never been separated from Tao.
The Taoist sage lives in harmony with failure and never fails.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
reread my thread. Husband and I really Know how to go for the jugulars with each other. I have made some cruel statements to him as well in past.
How does it get to the point that two people that created life together can intentionally hurt each other this way.
I understand now, why he was so angry at me for a comment I once made to him.
He used something awful that I experienced to inflict guilt. What hurts is that he would go so low to "win". Like I said, I did something similar which made him leave and it was done because I was hurt. When he questioned it and discussed it with everyone of course I came across looking horrible.
