B's Bootcamp v3

[Bfice3]

This is my third thread. I'm linking to the next to last page of the 2nd thread because I think that was 'interesting' or perhaps its simply 'depressing'. I don't know. Either way, here's the new thread.

...oonza...oonza...oonza...let's get this party started...o yeah

Bs 10-Week Bootcamp (2nd thread)

October 11 (1st thread)

[Thornton]

Let's get you straightened out on this thread, Bfice. Let's dedicate this thread to ZERO pursuit. Mmmmkay?

[Bfice3]

Fair enough. I was just reading your thread Thornton and you were saying how maybe your WAW just isn't right for you. And vanilla's messages about the scorpion. I mean, I definitely get the feeling that I'm being stung sometimes, but in my case I'm the one that is/has been the addict. Plus, I'm the super-codependent and my wife isn't. Long story short, I just keep feeling like it's wrong for me to simply let go of her. Logically it makes nothing but complete sense...but I still just feel like I shouldn't.

So, yeah. I'm heading back in to no contact mode. I'll keep updates periodically, and come in and journal.

A few little bits of what did happen today:

1.) D(15) started looking to schedule classes for junior year high school. She wants to take three electives: piano, chorus, theater 3. She's never played the piano, and she's never sung. Wife is a civil engineer and I'm an architect. We both value the sciences quite a bit. But our D(15) just really has never much of an aptitude for it. So, the WW apparently told my daughter that her electives were, in my daughter's words, "f'ing jerk off classes" and that my D(15) should drop at least two of them. Of course D(15) was crying when she told me this.

I talked to her for a good long while and I think I made her feel better. Not about what my WW said really, because I can't fix that. (It was funny though because D said, "It's just that everything and every opinion I have she just says things that are so hurtful." and I had to just nod and say, "I know, she does it to me too.") But anyway, I told D that I wanted her to be happy but that being happy isn't always about doing what's easy. Told her to listen to the voice in her head. Said right now I want to go buy a whole cheesecake and eat it, but I know that's the right thing to do. Listen to your voice in your head. And make choices in life that will keep as many doors open for you as long as you can. (I think I did just a tiny bit better than my wife...but who knows)

2.) While on the phone with D(15) WW asked to speak with S(9). Apparently she is talking to him about a girl in his class who is in a divorced family and WW told S(9) he can talk to this girl if he likes. I agree 100% with the talking and communication, but I am somewhat concerned about where my wife is coming from in this.

Then about an hour later, somehow, seemingly out of the blue, S(9) mentions that WW said her last name was her maiden name the other night at home. Both of the girls said they didn't remember that, so perhaps I'm making mountains out of mole-hills. But at either rate, its all completely out of my control.



So....

Yes. ZERO pursuit. Focus on me. Focus on the kids. Focus on work, studying, and recovery.

[RosaLinda]

I agree with what TX Hubby said in your last thread B, that your wife doesn't sound like a very nice woman, at least not now. Do you think she might be going thru a mid life crisis? My ex went thru a MLC (probably is still in it ), and, while he was never the most demonstrative or kind person, it turned him into kind of a vindictive, nasty, cruel monster for a while. Rough times!

It about broke my heart to read about your poor kids suffering so, and your daughter crying because your wife decided not to let her go to the concert in New Orleans (and blaming it on you!), and mocking your daughter's choices for electives. It's sad how many of the spouses on here use their kids to hurt the LBS. Sad....

Have you worked the trip out with your wife yet? She does not seem to be hearing that you don't mind if she takes them to New Orleans; you just want to make sure that you get to keep your son at another time for the same number of days. Losing six days of custody is a big deal in a state that determines custody arrangements by the number of nights that a child spends with each parent over the course of the separation.

Stand strong. Don't worry about all that crap she is threatening you with either - saying in court that you are an alcoholic, drug addict and thief. And also threatening to get her mom to lie about you in court. Just more threatening BS to try to get her way. You can show that you are in AA and have not had a drink in 4 months yesterday! Congratulations!

I definitely get the feeling that I'm being stung sometimes, but in my case I'm the one that is/has been the addict. Plus, I'm the super-codependent and my wife isn't. Long story short, I just keep feeling like it's wrong for me to simply let go of her. Logically it makes nothing but complete sense...but I still just feel like I shouldn't.

Go back and read what you advised your daughter. It applies to you here too!

Yes. ZERO pursuit. Focus on me. Focus on the kids. Focus on work, studying, and recovery.

By jove I think you've got it!

[Bfice3]

Hey RosaLinda, thank you. Its always great to hear from you.

So, I have a bit of an update. I had an opportunity this afternoon to do some snooping. I know that I probably shouldn't have, but I just couldn't resist the possibility of learning the truth about who and what my wife is. So, she left her old cell phone in a bag and I found it and tried to log in...but of course the stupid PIN code lock she put on it kept me out. But...I also found her black book with addresses and stuff. So, I started flipping through there.

I found a page in the back with a list of pros and cons.

Without embarrassing myself, I will simply say that there are two dates written that are less than a month from our separation where she says 'Fell Apart' and then two days later, on her birthday 'He Left Me'. On the pros side there is acknowledgement of things that would only be discussed if a person was discussing genitalia. And the statement 'He Says He Loves Me'. As well as 'Would Make a Good Husband'.

None of that is proof of anything in particular, but there are conversations that I overheard back when I was living in the house that I know these discussions were happening. At the time I even asked her about it, and she lied and said she was talking to her sister.

So...

So, basically she got a new job and fell in love with her coworker and started having sex with him. She took me on a date with this guy and his wife too! Told me we would become friends. Then she throws me out of the house and I'm guessing starts making her move to make her affair a real relationship. When, apparently he decided he would rather stay married. So, it ended. I do think its over. But, I don't think my WW is any closer to wanting me.

So...

Here's the thing. I'm calm right now, but I'm sitting on a thunder keg. I need someone to explain to me in simple terms why it is best to not let her know that I know about this. And, I guess...if anyone can offer a valid reason on how and when a marriage rebuilt after infidelity could possibly ever have trust and love again?

I mean...I now know a lot more about the extent to which she has been lying to me, and frankly it is astounding how accomplished she is at being to lie. (Although, perhaps I'm just a big dummy and unable to see the truth.)

I gotta tell you this hurts. But maybe...maybe now I have the information I need to finally feel okay in letting this woman go. I just simply am blown away at her actions.

God...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[Thornton]

Now is not the time to react because you are emotionally charged. You will say and do things that can have irreperable consequences.

An affair is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. I know that doesnt make you feel better.

You are going to need to digest this somehow. In the meantime, I will let others w more experience chime in.

Just breathe for now.

[Vanilla]

Firstly I want to say to you that your sobriety and the things you are doing are to be highly commended. In these difficult circumstances you are going to AA and staying sober. This is the most important gift you have for yourself and your family.

It is a very short period of time.

The day the alcoholic decides to remove their sting seems like to them their addiction is over. I do not think compulsives and addicts understand that is the day their loved ones usually fall into disruption and disrepair. It is the day that most spouses start with their anger.

It takes a long time for spouses of addicts to begin to repair themselves from the damage done to themselves and their family. They see further work involved and feel that they can go no more, the risk of investing in recovery of their addict and their R to be disappointed again is too much to bear. It takes time and detachment to resolve. They need their space and time, sometimes the spouse isn't even ready for step 1. Acceptance that addiction is in control. Often they can't even think of 12 stepping. It takes too much pain.

You can expect that your W may take up to 2 years to get to step 4. That is usual and she may not yet even see codependency or her need for boundaries. She will protect herself. Know this that is a consequence of your addictive behaviour. Your responsibility.

It is also your responsibility to learn to set boundaries for acceptable behaviour and to gently reinforce them.

So stop, give W space. Stop the blame game, it isn't helping either you or W. Too much focus on whether there is an OM whether W is wayward. I personally don't read wayward as primary, I read anger and a desire to push forward with her independence. I understand it, I really do, if a spouse lives with an addict in full mode then that's where it comes from. I know you read Thornton's thread, and imagine if the way Thornton's significant other behaves is how your W sees you.

I think it would help you to rework steps 1 to 3 of your twelve step program. I can't see that the implication of those steps has hit you yet. Have you a mentor? That is vital to you.

I do not see you are ready to begin MC.

This is support from V, addiction is tough and very hard on families.

I also suggest you read about being the child of an alcoholic, your children are the children of an alcoholic. Sobriety for such a short time is not atonement. To atone takes great courage and humility. I don't see it nor do I read that you understand the damage done by addiction by the addict to the family.

It is very painful when the addict hits acceptance, it can send them back to their addiction. It is the first step.

I believe you have a great deal of work to do on you.

Secondly there are physiological issues that need addressing. Substance addicts invariably have poor health especially if they smoke. Nutritional deficiencies and you say you have lost a lot of weight. Know your numbers, get your health, liver function and thyroid tested. Kidney damage is also common.

That is just to start with. You need extreme care of you.

Let's also consider the body mind spirit interaction, this will take at least 9 months before the after effects start to improve significantly viz:

When heavy drinkers suddenly stop or significantly reduce their alcohol consumption, the neurotransmitters previously suppressed by alcohol are no longer suppressed. They rebound, resulting in a phenomenon known as brain hyperexcitability. So, the effects associated with alcohol withdrawal -- anxiety, irritability, agitation, tremors, seizures, and DTs -- are the opposite of those associated with alcohol consumption.

There will be longer term indicators of this too. I think it would help you to understand that much of your hyper reactivity and mood swings are related to your addiction and the consequences of it. It may take several months before this settles, and this may take longer if you do not take great care of you.

You need hyper nutrition strategies, gentle exercise and honest GAL with men and women of all ages who do ordinary activities. A hobby or pursuit in a club of your choice perhaps, volunteering at a school or charity, rotary or something to give back.

Dating is not good GAL and if I were W, that would make me think scorpion, so much damage and he dates?

Dark is not good. Validation is important.

You are rushing, it's in the nature of compulsives, you have time take it.

This is a long haul and there is much work to do with 12 steps and DB, exams.

Now I tell you extreme self care.

Breathe, calm and serenity.

One day at a time

V

[Bfice3]

Vanilla, thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that out. You just broke me down man. I heard your words as they were intended...but man...everything just came crashing down for me. You are right...I do have a ton of work to do just on me.

I will come back and post more...I can't do it in any way that makes sense right now. But, I just wanted to say that you made a huge impact, and I really appreciate it.

I'll be back when I have some time to gather my thoughts.

Tough day today.

[Vanilla]

Take your time, let your thoughts marinade.

Speak to your AA mentor and try to relax. This is good, and yes whilst I am not compulsive I have been involved with recovery enough to know how important this phase is.

When shift happens and I hope nearer acceptance that is enormous. You will move forward.

One day at a time, today is a good day when it is a day of awakening.

V

[RosaLinda]

Vanilla are you saying that B's wife cheating on him is all his fault? I'm feeling sort of protective here, and certainly do not know as much about addictions as you do from living with your gambling and abusive husband (see, I have read your threads a lot, and FOO Led too )....but this seems a little harsh to me.

The day the alcoholic decides to remove their sting seems like to them their addiction is over. I do not think compulsives and addicts understand that is the day their loved ones usually fall into disruption and disrepair. It is the day that most spouses start with their anger.

I'm sure B does NOT think his alcoholism is over. And his wife's anger and cheating started well before B started going to AA. She also kicked him out of the house. The day he admitted his addiction was not the day she "started with her anger;" it was her anger that forced him to face his addiction.

You can expect that your W may take up to 2 years to get to step 4. That is usual and she may not yet even see codependency or her need for boundaries. She will protect herself. Know this that is a consequence of your addictive behaviour. Your responsibility.

So stop, give W space. Stop the blame game, it isn't helping either you or W. Too much focus on whether there is an OM whether W is wayward. I personally don't read wayward as primary, I read anger and a desire to push forward with her independence. I understand it, I really do, if a spouse lives with an addict in full mode then that's where it comes from.

I am looking at the 12 Steps online while reading this. They are great, and as a Christian, I have had to do 2 through 11 many times. A lot of people on this forum, especially Mach and URWorthy, helped me with #4 (the searching and fearless moral self-inventory) -- it's a much needed step in the DBing process. And Cadet helped me to understand my own codependency and enabling. B is new to this process and AA, and is doing the best he can right now to move thru these steps, accept his faults.

But I don't think it is 100% B's fault or responsibility. B needs to take responsibility for only his 50% of the problems in his marriage. Living with an alcoholic, or a gambler, or an abuser, does NOT give one license to cheat and lie. It's just not right, Vanilla.

I believe that B's wife is having a mid life crisis -- maybe due to his alcoholism, that could be possible, right? Will this make a difference? A MLC is due to depression mainly, and she has a lot of the symptoms - your quote "anger and a desire to push forward with independence" are signs, as well as unhappiness with life, feeling a need for change, doubt about ever loving B, desire for a new intimate relationship, confusion. Lashing out at B and the kids. Lying constantly. She is not now ready to go thru these al-anon steps, but I believe the reason is that she is mired in the stew of MLC confusion and self absorption. It seems to me that an al-anon wife would need a mind-set that is equally humble and open as that of her AA husband, and throwing in a MLC might make that unobtainable.

Here's the thing. I'm calm right now, but I'm sitting on a thunder keg. I need someone to explain to me in simple terms why it is best to not let her know that I know about this. And, I guess...if anyone can offer a valid reason on how and when a marriage rebuilt after infidelity could possibly ever have trust and love again?

Yes, of course a marriage can be rebuilt after infidelity. But it would take a lot of AA Step # 4 on both sides, as well as humbly and honestly asking and giving forgiveness. A true change of heart on both sides.

Why shouldn't you tell her you know? Mainly because it won't make a difference. She will continue to lie, and to rationalize and justify her actions to herself. She is not ready to face the truth B. And Thornton is right, "An affair is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself."

God...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Amen!