B's 10-Week Bootcamp

[RosaLinda]

Sorry for not checking in recently B. Sorry that you have been in a funk, having a couple of rough weeks; this stuff is SO hard.

As difficult as it is for someone who loves his spouse as you do to understand, I think that Sandi and Fogg are right. Your wife is not doing what she is doing to hurt you, or to hurt your kids. You are sort of collateral damage. She might regret your pain a bit, but the most important thing in the world to her right now is her own happiness. Not you, not your kids; all she can see is that she is unhappy and wants to feel better, and is going to try different stuff out to see if it helps her. Some wayward spouses have affairs, some spend money like crazy, some move far away from their friends and family. I know it probably doesn't help to be told that she is not intentionally hurting you, but it's true.

You sound so depressed. I'm glad your phone conversation made you feel a little better, and that you were able to get all that off your chest, but am equally glad that you realize that her words are meaningless unless and until her actions back them up. And you do not see that happening yet.

But to answer your question, if she DOES call, let her talk. Listen. Validate her feelings. Keep calm, don't get angry. That's interesting what you said about feeling differently when you had your phone on record - do that if it helps you to feel calmer and more in control.

The ball is in her court. I have a life to live, whatever that life ends up being I still don't know.

None of us know where we will end up, B. I DBed for five frigging years, CERTAIN that my ex would wake up and realize that he had made a terrible mistake, but it did not happen, and I would not take him back now for a kazillion dollars. But the lessons I learned from my counselors and on this forum helped me so much. I learned that I am the only one who can make me happy, and I am truly happy. I learned that I am a codependent enabler, and am working on that (although it's hard to break the habit with my kids). I learned that love is a choice that we make every day. I learned that I am a woman of worth, who is worthy of kindness, honesty and loyalty. All that took me a long time, hopefully you will learn all these life lessons sooner than it took me.

But we all go thru this and come thru this in our own time. Me and my ex. You and your wife. I hope to God that she wakes up and realizes what is good and right and honorable, and what is best for you and for your family. Following this process is your best chance for it to happen. And if it does, I will be so thrilled for you. And if it doesn't, well, you will be just fine.

[RosaLinda]

When is your next exam?

[Bfice3]

Hello RosaLinda, its great to see your words again! I've missed being able to communicate with someone. My next exam was scheduled for this coming Friday (the 12th) but today I just re-scheduled it for March 1st because I haven't been really been focused on studying the past few weeks the way I should...at all.

What has been going on? Well...on the good news front I had set up a meeting with a new IC. She specializes in codependency and addiction. I had a 1 hour session with her this past Friday and started a 6 week group session the following morning on Saturday. She was actually really awesome, and I feel that talking with her is going to help provide some very valuable information for me to process about myself and help me dig deeper and focus on learning about who I am, what drives my actions, and how I can best utilize that moving forward.

That being said, my wife called me yesterday. I started off answering the phone thinking maybe she is calling about wanting to talk about 'us'. Lol. Wrong.

This was easily our worst interaction yet. I wish I had a recorder so that I could have captured everything that she was saying to me.

She started off wanting me to agree to letting her take the kids on a two week trip to New Orleans this summer, but that I should volunteer to give up my rights to the days that would be mine during that time frame. I said no. I told her she can take them on the trip absolutely, but that we should rearrange the days so that me and the kids aren't missing out on any of our time. Well, she didn't like that and completely blew up on me. She then went and told our oldest daughter that I had cancelled their trip, and that because of me doing so, my daughter would then be missing out on a concert that she had been planning to attend. Yep. So, now my daughter is crying in her room because of my wife, yet my wife is on the phone telling me that its all my fault. Amazing.

It got worse from there, with her just insulting me repeatedly by calling me all sorts of names...slacker, loser, etc. Her telling me that I should have to take a breathalyzer every time I come over to pick up the kids. And that because I am being 'difficult' and not getting along and being 'nice' that things were going to get 'harder' now. Again she told me that she will be seeking 100% custody and that I don't deserve to be able to have any custody. Sweet lady.

She said she was having her mom come back up and that they were going to be re-arranging some furniture and giving the spare bedroom to my daughter (11) who has been sharing a room with her brother (9). Then she let me know that she would be charging me $200 per month since our separation for a storage fee for keeping what's left of my 'stuff' there at the house.

I replied that if she does that, then I should charge her the going rate for 'before care' and 'after care' on her days of having the kids because I drop them off and pick them up from school everyday. Oh man...you should have heard her response. She got real quiet, and low voice...the anger just seething through the phone..."I...WILL...NEVER...GIVE...YOU...A...SINGLE...PENNY" and then just went into a tirade.

So, it went really well. On the positive side. 1.) I didn't spin out of control during this, I didn't lose my cool and have the rest of my day ruined. I was actually pretty calm. I did raise my voice a few times, but towards the end I actually found myself smiling at the sheer absurdity. 2.) And then I guess two is really more of a 1a...apparently I am detaching from her. Because I was able to remain pretty calm in the face of such a barrage. I didn't lose my cool, and just kept talking when necessary and letting her know that all I was doing was standing up and self-advocating for my kids to keep their father in their lives.

Yeah. So, that was my day yesterday.

I hope you're doing well RosaLinda. It was nice to see your responses and I will come back at some point and reply to some of the specific things you mentioned.

Gotta run, but I'll try to be back sooner rather than later.

[Bfice3]

So...basically, it feels like every change I've been making about myself, my wife is responding to in a negative way. Saying that me praying and 'being religious' is so fake. That passing an exam is great but I should have done it 20 years ago. Calling my apartment 'dumpy' even though its one of the nicest places in our area. She says that me advocating for myself and my kids and wanting my equal share of custody and time with the children is me being 'selfish'.

I mean, in general it feels like she is divorce busting me in reverse. She truly has alien brain and its getting progressively more intense. She has re-written the entire history of me...and everything I have ever done is evidence of my villainous behavior. She even is starting to claim that I'm not a good father...which was the only thing that I was ever actually good at, great at in fact.

I mean...tomorrow is 4 months. Next month, on the 11th...it will be our 5 month date of separation as well our 16th wedding anniversary. Yay.

Its fair to say, and to think, that if she wanted our relationship she would be making it happen, right? I am detaching more and more with every day...but this past month, and in particular with some changes that I'm anticipating based on what she has said...(me having to move everything out of the house)...I'm anticipating that an even greater divide is coming, and that I will ultimately be getting even more detached. And this part of me just feels like its wrong. Like...somehow...I should be fighting tooth and nail to protect and nourish...what?...what would I even be protecting? There's nothing there for me anymore, right. I mean...if she wants it, if she wants to, she will let me know and make it start to happen. And I have to simply leave the ball sitting there on her side of the court until she shows up to play.

Anyway...doing nothing, even it is the right thing, feels like its not. And even more so because it doesn't seem to be doing anything to help. Not that me pursuing her was doing any good either.

I went to go pick up the kids for school this morning and I noticed my son (9) was acting upset. I asked him what was wrong, and he didn't really have words. My oldest daughter (15) said that he had been very upset about the situation last night and was crying and slept in bed with my wife. This really broke my heart because he has seemed mostly unaffected by everything thus far, and normally he is so perky and happy and full of life. But this morning he was so down and sad...it just was awful to see. I tried to console him, telling him that I'm sorry, and that none of this is his fault, and that we are struggling through it together, and that I wish I could make it all go back to the way it was. Then he told me, 'Mommy said that everything will be okay in the future'.

And bam...the same thing she tells me. I've been thinking about this...and, it makes me angry. At this point, its not even that I'm hurt, or that she is hurting me. I'm upset for my kids. Her son (is arguably and often noticeably her favorite child) is now coming to her crying, upset because of a situation that she has created, and she looks at him and consoles him by basically saying...deal with it kid.

What kind of person, what kind of mother, does that? I don't know. I don't know what else she should have said to him, but it just seems so cold to me.

Anyway...no one really seems to have much to say or add to my posts anymore, and I guess that's because there is nothing to say or add. I'm sure that I'm screwing up this whole DB process...but I just don't see how my actions could be considered anything but positive by any normal person of the past 4 months.

Have a great day everyone, and happy valentine's day to those who want to celebrate...and for everyone else like me, I hope that little cherub slips and pokes his butt with one of those arrows.

B-out.

[Bfice3]

I have nothing else to do right now...so...I'm going to do this:

Sunday:

Me: I was actually foolishly hoping that after my phone call to you last Sunday things still had a chance of working out.

WW: Not anymore. Because now you've made me despise you. Congratulations. If you would have just let me keep S(9) on Saturday night.

Me: Right. That's what did it. I know enough now that is complete BS.

WW: I told D(15) her concert is off because you won't allow them to go to New Orleans. She is very upset.

Me: Loving mother of the year.

WW: Since you've ruined our plans of going, and I tried to make it work, you will be responsible if she goes or not. You'll have to buy the tickets. The concert comes here in June too. It's on you.

Me: Uhh...no. That's not how it works, and I didn't say they couldn't go, you decided that's what I said. I said I wanted my nights.

WW: Will you be in New Orleans to get your nights? If you say no, then you've ruined the trip.

Me: Again, you are the one setting ultimatums and being inflexible.

WW: No, you're being unflexible, not letting me have S(9). I will make no further action trying to bring the kids to New Orleans. But, you will not be allowed to take them if you want to go...I want my nights.

Me: Okay. But that's your decision and completely separate from anything I've said.

WW: No. It's yours.

Me: The nights can be re-arranged...you are just unwilling.

WW: Can I have them in New Orleans? Oh! Good. Can we re-arrange tonight and let me have S(9) all night Saturday? I'm very willing to re-arrange.

Me: Lol

WW: I'm looking for an answer. Ok. So I take it you won't let me bring the kids to New Orleans. YOU take the fallout and responsibilities of getting D(15) to this concert. I was willing, but shut down.

WW: I'm not moving to New Orleans anytime soon, by the way.

Me: Because you're probably sleeping with somebody else already.

WW: Nope. I left you because of you. This exchange right here says everything about the kind OF person you are...SELFISH! You would rather keep the kids inn your small little apartment then let them go and have fun inn New Orleans for a week with my parents. That's selfish. The kids have no other relatives.

Me: All I've said is I want my even split with the kids...you are making it into me not allowing them to go to New Orleans.

WW: And you're trying to keep them from their only relatives they have - that's selfish!!! You aren't, are you? F*** New Orleans for the summer! If you go, I won't let u take them. I NEED MY nights.

Me: I really don't even know what you are talking about...you're not making any sense.

WW: I figured you couldn't keep up.

Me: One day maybe you'll be able to see that you can't discuss anything without slinging insults.

WW: Its okay. This is where the plan stands as of right now: you have said you will not let the kids go to New Orleans without getting your nights. So you are responsible for the concert that D(15) will miss in New Orleans. I will not be taking the kids to New Orleans over the summer and you will not be taking them to New Orleans over the summer.

Me: Not the truth.

WW: What is the truth? Will you let me take them without getting your days? Yes or no.

Me: No, the kids need time with their father.

WW: Then what I stated above is the truth. You're now in charge of D(15) and the concert tickets.

Me: Not the truth. You are manipulating and twisting things to get what you want without consideration of the kids or their father. Typical.

WW: Bu*ls*it. Can they go?

Me: Of course. But the kids deserve their equal share of time with their father.

WW: Without me owing you days?

Me: See above. I've been consistent.

WW: Is this your way of getting out of paying for D(15)'s concert now?? I bet it is, Ha! Cheap *ss. You trying to look like the victim huh? You're the one that won't let the kids go to their grandparents for the summer. You did it last year, what's changed? You can better dad now? What a joke. And you're turning all religious, that's a fake joke too.

Me: You are really cracking.

WW: D(15) is sobbing in her room right now about not being able to go to NOLA and the concert. I told her to take it up with you. Note that you said you would not let them go without having your nights, so it is your fault.

***At this point I sent a text to my D(15):

Me: Don't listen to what WW is saying D(15).

D(15): Okay, she says we won't go to New Orleans.

Me: I know. And...you may not...but that isn't because of me.

D(15): Okay.

***Then a couple of last texts between WW and I:

Me: Go back and re-read these messages. Starting with mine. You are so full of anger. You want out and away from your marriage and family at all costs.

WW: No, I love my kids, above all else. I want them 100%. If we go to court, that's what I'll be fighting for.

Me: I just can't believe who you have become. I don't even know who you are anymore. I actually thought you were considering how to 'work it out' last Sunday...boy was I wrong.



And that was the end. After she dropped the kids off and I took them to watch the Super Bowl at some friends house.

[Bfice3]

The next morning (I was angry and pursuing all at once):

Me: For better or for worse, in sickness and in health...till death do us part. Guess, I'm finding out who you really are...and you aren't who I thought you were all these years. I don't know why I'm sending this text. I'm still in disbelief that this is how this ends. Your responses yesterday all but admit you've slept with another man...what difference does it make...it makes every difference. I may not have been who you wanted, but I never left, I never quit, I never went to another woman...I still haven't, and won't for a long time...I know none of this matters and you simply don't care. Its just so incredibly disappointing that this is how you've chosen to be. You can say what you need, but the truth is, this is all your creation. You gave up on us, went to another man, and now simply want me to be subservient to your wishes so that you can move on to another other man. I love you WW. And through everything, I never wanted anyone else. All I ever wanted was for you to give me your love. Anyway...

Me: I know that you won't respond. I also know you cannot be honest about this, ever, to me, to yourself, to friends, family, co-workers...I'm sure you've had to even lie to the other men, and I doubt that your even honest with your sister. It hurts like hell, to be left at all, but the way you've done this...you couldn't have been more hurtful if you tried. Your fake concern, fake counseling arrivals, fake everything...with a deep current of hate, disdain, and resentment flowing freely...and I knew it...I just foolishly hoped I was wrong. I wasn't.

***5 hours later***

WW: Don't take my silence as confirmation of anything you just said. I haven't slept with other men. I'm not lying to everyone and I didn't and am not leaving my precious children. My attempts weren't fake. I'm just tired of having to repeat my stance of being faithful. Pretty soon I won't respond to that accusation anymore.

Me: There have been no attempts from you...other that to create a false perception that you were 'trying'...and that was never done for my benefit. I don't say any of that based on your words. I say all of that based on the evidence I've seen, and the actions you've taken, and more importantly the actions you haven't taken. Not to mention the lies, the sneaking, the emotional breakdowns, just the whole series of events...it plays out so obvious...even though you think you've been so clever. I just thought that like me, you would remain committed to the end...good or bad.

Me: And understand, that I don't have a false fairy tale notion of where our marriage was...but...I still feel that if we had wanted there was nothing so wrong that it couldn't be made new or better than it ever was. That is where we truly differ. You decided you wanted out. You gave up on us. And to justify it in your head you are fabricating your version of events, rewriting our past, and demeaning me at every opportunity. I've done nothing, except try to reconcile, grow, recover, and become a better person. Nothing I have done, has warranted the visceral responses I get from you. You simply have to have me as the villain, because you are unwilling to face the reality of your actions.

Me: Do you realize that even yesterday when you called, I had hoped that it was because you wanted to talk about 'us'...?

***5 hours later***

WW: If only you would have been nice and let S(9) spend the night with me freely. Sunday would have gone much differently.

Me: Believe me, I wish nothing more than to be able to believe that was true...or rather, that there was/is any series of actions and/or words that could create a path back to 'us'. But, the reality is, nothing I do or say matters as long as you don't want me or 'us' anymore.

Me: And therefore...the only logical course of action for me, is take care of myself and any amount of interaction I can have with my children.

Me: But you won't call, you won't write, you won't stop by and visit, you won't invite me to coffee...I won't hear from you at all except a forwarded email and a text about kids. And that is my reality.

***The next message was the following day at around noon***

WW: I will be home today, so please drop the kids off after school.

Me: Ok

[Bfice3]

I'll explain about the S(9) thing because that came up a lot in the texts.

She called me Sunday supposedly to discuss some things. Started off talking about joint filing taxes. Fine, no big deal.

Then she went to my plans for this coming weekend. I have the kids. D(15) has a party to go to from 5-11pm. And D(11) has a father-daughter dance. If I do both...which I was...then I needed a place for S(9) to go. Well, he and his sister are each in class with a brother and sister that our family friends of ours. So the dad and I planned to have my S(9) go over to their house and hang out with his friend, while we all go to the dance together...two girls and two dads.

So...my wife says...you know, any separation agreement would state that the parent gets the first right to babysit.

And I reluctantly agree, I was irritated that was sticking her nose in my plans for the weekend, but I agreed. Then I said, so I'll be by after the dance to pick up S(9).

That's when she lost it. I really didn't know she meant to keep him overnight. She said 'babysit' and to me that means temporary. I don't know. I didn't say it to make her angry, but angry she got.

Anyway...so that's that story.

[Thornton]

Bfice - what is your goal?

Are you fed up and want to end your marriage? Or are you trying to work on it? Im confused.

[Bfice3]

So this is the last one. I woke up this morning still feeling very sad about this whole situation and still felt like pursuing:

***7:30 am***

Me: Your silence is deafening. Again, a complete lack of response. Tomorrow is officially 4 months, fyi.

***8 hours later***

WW: Every time I say something you come back at me with insults, accusations, and meanness. You can keep S(9) on Saturday. Forget I asked. I'll take him Sunday at noon at my allotted time.

***Wait, what???*** ***You berated me for an entire afternoon because of this and now you're just letting it go?***

WW: Keep in mind that S(9) was crying a lot last night. He's tired of switching. He doesn't prefer to stay at your place that much since he has no one to play with, no toys, no computer.

WW: He needed to sleep with me. He needs a therapist.

Me: From your first message just now, should or can I infer that at some point you have wanted to talk to me about us and I have prevented it?

Me: All of the kids need a therapist. I need and have two.

Me: When I talk about silence, or lack of communication, I am referring to conversations related to the possibility of us reconciling our marriage. I don't recall you starting or responding to any messages, calls or emails about that subject.

***20 minutes later***

Me: And now you'll go quiet again...

***At this point I think I realized what I have been doing wasn't divorce busting and tried to start doing that***

Me: You are right though, I have, and am, full of a lot of anger because I am very hurt by all of this. The accusations and insults you refer to are (I'm assuming, because we don't talk) are based on my best piecing together and trying to understand and figure out what is going on, and what, if anything, I can do about it. I don't mean to insult you when I talk about what has happened, but I don't know ANYTHING about what's going with you, and from where I am, it seems as though you prefer it that way.

Me: I mean...if I acted logically based strictly on your actions and words...I probably would never speak to you again. But, seemingly, I can't easily let go of the fact that I have loved you. I'm trying to break free, and tell myself that its okay, she doesn't love me anymore, she's done all of these things, she's said all of these things, our marriage was lonely and full of isolation...just let go.

Me: People tell me that if you really wanted to be in a relationship with me, that I would know it and wouldn't have to ask. They tell me to move on, I'm doing awesome, I'll be better off. And I nod, and agree...but...even still, all I ever wanted was for you to make me feel loved.

Me: I didn't and still don't want a divorce, or to be separated. I didn't and still don't want our children to have to experience this. I didn't and still don't want anyone else. I have and still do love you. I regret everything I've done to drive you from me. I regret everything I've done to be an ineffective leader and earner. I regret everything I've done that makes you believe that I don't love you. I regret so many things. But mostly...and this started before the separation...I just miss you.

Me: Life will go on. I know that now. I'll be okay, and one day I may even be happy. If God will's it, I may even end up better off somehow. But, please know, that this is not the road I would have taken. You must truly believe life without me is going to be better for you in order to put all of us through this. I guess I hope you are right.

Me: I'll stop now...

***5 hours later***

Me: So nothing there deserves even the smallest of a response?

***20 minutes later***

WW: Yes, a lot does. But where do I start? I feel so disconnected. I feel horrible for any pain you have. I wish I could love you like you need and deserve. I don't know if I can and I don't have the strength right now to try.

WW: I live day by day. I miss my kids. I wish things were like they used to be. But we can't go back now. It'll be too hard.

WW: Don't blame this on other men. This is about you and I, and no other men.

WW: Can you have S(9) call me when you get a chance please?

Me: Well...thank you for responding. I can certainly relate to living day by day. The advice I most commonly receive is to do nothing...so that I don't do something I will later regret.

WW: I seem to follow the same rule.

Me: The part I have trouble understanding is not having the strength to try.

WW: I don't understand either.

Me: I'm sorry that you are lost in that place.

Me: I think I might be tall enough so that you can see the light from my halo to guide you out.

WW: Hahaha! You ARE super holy now.

Me: Angel emoji

Me: That was serious symbolism hidden within a joke and laced with self-confidence, by the way.

WW: Thanks for letting me talk with S(9).

Me: Anytime.

Me: Keep in mind that no matter what, we each have to rebuild what's left of our lives moving forward. Apart or together...each is a choice that carries pros and cons. If you ever get the strength to take that first step, you know where I am.

WW: I do. Thank you.

[Bfice3]

Bfice - what is your goal?

Are you fed up and want to end your marriage? Or are you trying to work on it? Im confused.

Great question. I don't know. I don't think I have any chance of saving my marriage I guess. It hurts so much, and there is simply never any communication from my wife at all about us.

I'm trying to detach...but frankly...I don't want to. I think I am getting better...I guess. I don't know. I'm posting all of this so that hopefully someone out there smarter than me can tell me what is going on.

I'm lost. I feel hopeless. And...I just don't ever get the sense from her that there is any way this ever works out.