B's 10-Week Bootcamp

[Bfice3]

Thanks Fogg. I know you are right. I will definitely check out both of those books.

I never even considered my 'smile and drive away' as being a rude thing...I was so hurt by her, that I was instinctively defending myself and trying to not be mean in return the way she was to me.

I really just don't have the tools emotionally, or how to communicate or whatever. I know that. Thats why I post these long messages. I'm trying to give enough of myself out there for others to judge my actions and interactions to help me learn. (Not to save my marriage, but to help me be a better me.)

Anyway, thank you for taking time to comment honestly. It means a lot.

[Azzork]

OK...I combined your three posts into one...

Hi everyone. I'm back. Pretty crummy weekend. I'm going to just write out some things, I guess journaling.

For starters, I'm in North Carolina. It appears (after a very quick google search) to be one of those states that legally allows the recording of some conversations at least where there is consent given by only 1 person. But, I'm not at that step just yet, though I fully recognize the potential benefit. When I say I'm not at that step yet, I could very well be by this afternoon, depending on how I feel. Any and all feedback on this post will potentially help me make a fully informed decision.
See my comments above. If you're heated, do nothing. If you're sad, do nothing. Act on logic.

That being said, back to last week. So earlier in the week (possibly the weekend prior) the WW asked me to add to my upcoming 4 day schedule (Wed-Sat) of keeping the kids, the additional days of Mon and Tues because she was going to be out of town for work. I agreed. She asked if I needed to exchange days because the additional days would 'be a hassle for me' and I declined.

Then Friday's event unfolded. She says she wants to discuss the schedule. Not saying she wants to re-negotiate or anything like that. But clearly once she is on the phone her sole intention for calling is to get me to give up Friday and Saturday after adding the Monday and Tuesday.
This seems like mind reading. But if youre worried about scheduling issues, why not document them all in emails? Thats what Ive started doing.

I was very reluctant because my understanding from a lawyer is that the custody/child support situation is based (in NC) on how many nights the kids stay with each parent. Our arrangement currently is (every 2 weeks: me 6 days, her 8 days). So, I'm always wanting to try to get additional nights to get closer to that 50% margin.
I dont really know think thats a great way to think about it. Yes, it's based on the overnights, so I expect you are paying to her some due to the disparity. But the number is fixed. I doubt you are going to take her to court to change it if they spend 160 nights with you instead of 156...you'll probably pay more in lawyer fees than youd get back.

She was very combative and difficult and lots of yelling ensued and I ended up hanging up the phone.
So what did you learn? How will you change this interaction next time?

Also, you are labeling her in this way. How do you think she felt you were acting? And then hanging up on her...I presume that it wasnt in a calm way...

The following day she sends text stating that I needed to let her know and that a non-response is an affirmative response. She also finally revealed her true intentions. She has plans with her cousin this weekend coming up and wants the kids with her then so they can visit. It has to be this weekend coming up because her cousin is leaving to move to Japan very soon.
Yeah, usually theres some ulterior motive. But in this case, what is best for the kids?

Ultimately, I relented and said its fine, via text only. But I told her I didn't appreciate her lack of honesty regarding her intentions, to which she of course replied "I was 100% honest."
Blech. Why say this? She doesnt OWE you anything. What real difference does it make what she is doing with the kids on her time with them? And she did tell you what she was going to do with them. So what exactly did you want her to do? Say it straight out? Why does it matter to you?


Fast forward to this morning. So, she told me she was going to drop the kids off to me this morning around 8-8:30am via text on Saturday. This morning I get a call from our D(15) at about 8am saying they are on the way and that there is a letter I need to recieve from my WW, and that there are two other girls in our car from a sleepover and that my WW won't be coming up to the apt. I said fine, see you in a bit. Then texted my WW to not use our children as a conduit for communication about their parents divorce.
OK. What? That whatever this letter is couldnt be sent with the kids? She has to hand deliver it to you? Your D is 15....it doesnt seem that unreasonable for her to call you to say those things.

Here's a fun string of texts:

Me: Our children are not supposed to be the conduit for communication in their parents divorce.

WW: I was driving. I told you about this last week, remember? Check S(9)'s coat for the envelope.

Me: You are missing the point of protecting your children from yourself, but whatever.
Huh? I can guess what you mean....But what are you saying this to her for?

WW: What on earth are you talking about?

Me: Exactly.
Hmmmmm. This just seems rude. I also dont know what youre really talking about.

WW: You're the one who won't even speak to me. You're going crazy.

WW: You need to protect the kids from yourself.

WW: I'm doing fine.

Me: Why would I talk to you? You've had or are having at least one affair, you're actively seeking other men to date, you've told me you don't love me, you requested space for at least 6 additional months, not to mention you're treatment towards me personally and your inability to be honest about your intentions and actions.
You HAVE to talk to her, because you are both parents of the kids. You dont have to be FRIENDS with her. But if theres something about the kids, you cant just ignore her. This is so arbitrarily angry and judgmental that I cant see what your 'angle' here is. It sounds like you were so angry about the day before that you are taking it out on her here.

WW: Harsh, and I'm not having an affair and NEVER cheated on you.

Me: How is that harsh? It is simply factual. And an affair is by definition cheating.
Your definition and her definition of these words are different. Why are you bothering trying to convince her of yours? Why argue on the technicality of the words 'affair' and 'cheat'?

Honestly, I side with her in this case. You started this conversation about, what, exactly? Your D didnt say anything about the divorce....

I completely echo all that Fogg wrote.


So...lots of love. I know, I'm doing a terrible job at detaching (meaning leaving myself unaffected by her actions) but I'm just really starting to flat out get angry with her.
Yes, I think that is clear.

She dropped off our 3 children this morning to their father's apartment while having 2 11 year old friends of our D(11) in the car! I asked my daughter about it after an hour or so. "Did that bother you getting dropped off here with them in the car?" Her, "Well...yeah, kinda it did. I thought they were going to get dropped off first."
Yes. I can understand it's a little weird. But 11 year olds these days have likely been around divorce. I wouldnt necessarily have gone out of my way to drop the other kids off first if I didnt have to.

And by you ASKING her if it bothers her, it brings it to her mind that it MIGHT or SHOULD bother her. It's kind of like leading the witness...by asking about it, it gives her the idea that you think it was weird. So, who knows. Next time, see if you can let her articulate her feelings.

Then, my oldest daughter...oh yeah, Dad, I need to get a composition notebook and 100 notecards by tomorrow for school. (This is immediately following being with my WW for 3 days) Me: "Oh, okay. Mommy didn't get those for you?" D(15) "She told me to tell you to get them. She's told me to talk to you about everything, even my follow up appointment for my retainer she said you should schedule it, and that you should buy my homecoming dance ticket."

I mean...my wife is just freakin checking out being a parent, and that makes me angry too.
Agree that this is not great. How can you be the best dad possible? Instead of getting angry at WW, why not use it to spend extra time with D15?


So, I don't know where I am right now. I mean, at this point, if she were to even begin to show interest in our marriage again I don't even know how I would feel about that. She is hurting me. She is hurting our children. And she is doing it all feeling 100% completely justified and without any visible remorse.
Hopefully, you can see that a lot of this pain is self-inflicted. Why dont you work on worrying less about her and more about you? THEN see 'where you are'.

We talk about children ya know, and how smart they are, and what they pick up on. Well, I've been talking to my kids about me getting a bigger place, potentially a 3 bedroom townhouse. My D(11) asked me about it again this morning, asked if I had visited any new places. (I let them come with me to visit one the other day because I wanted them to feel comfortable with what I choose and don't want to just be like oh hey this is where you'll be calling home now when you are with me.) So, I told her no I hadn't seen any new ones in the past few days. (This weekend I texted my WW to let me know how long she would remain in NC because I needed to be able to make decisions about signing a new lease. Her response was vague and ineffectual
Im not sure exactly. How was your question? Did it leave openings for vagueness? Shouldnt the schedule have already been basically fixed? How can you become more independent?

except for when she asked if I wanted to move to LA with D(15) so our daughter could finish high school where the WW went!) So, I asked out loud to all the kids if there had been any talk from mom about moving or anything like that. D(15) responds, "Yeah, I asked her about it last night, and said its been 4 months, isn't this supposed to be ending now? But mom just said she didn't know." At which point D(11) "Its not ending, its forever".
What was that about not using the kids as a conduit for divorce information?

Man, that just crushed me. They know. They can see it. These poor kids, they didn't ask for this. I know I've been a bad husband, been selfish, been a drunk, I know I have a part in this failed marriage. And it makes me so sad that my kids have to bear this for the rest of their lives.

But...well...one day at a time right. Be not afraid.

I'm going to love my kids as much as I can, and build me into a man that is going to be more amazing than I've ever been. The future is bright for B! And through my rising, my children will be lifted.
Alright. So the next step is....HOW?

That's the plan. Regardless of that woman does.

I feel somewhat better now. There was a lot that happened that I've left out, but most of it was just more nitpicky, complaining and lying from my WW. But, its good to get it out of my head and let you all take it from me.

I need to do some actual work now, but I'll be back later.

Thanks all.

Hopefully that all helps. Keep on keepin on, B.

[Bfice3]

Hey Azzork...yeah...I ended up sending her a text after reading your post (I guess two days ago now).

Me: I've been very angry with you recently and have responded poorly and without control of my emotions, so I apologize.

WW: I understand. I'm sorry things are so tough

And that was it. Back to no contact between her and I. Which, I know is wrong to think, but I hate this whole no contact thing. More specifically, I hate that she is so okay with not contacting me at all. She hasn't once, since this separation, called to see how I'm doing, to talk about our marriage, or anything like that.

I mean, dumb question, but me continuing no contact is my only course of action right? GAL, NC, and prayer.

To everyone following my sitch, if anyone is, I know I ended up handling things poorly this weekend, but man I just...I'm just so hurt and angry with her. I guess that's a change and perhaps I should consider it progress from being completely depressed all the time.

I don't know. I got those books in Fogg. No more Mr Nice Guy, and I ended up getting the 'Passion Trap' instead of the one you mentioned. I don't know. I'll read them. Hopefully learn something about myself, or at least develop some self control.

Zen Warrior is my ideal objective right?

Anyway...don't have long. Hope everyone is doing well. I'll be back in touch soon.

Later.

[Fogg]

More specifically, I hate that she is so okay with not contacting me at all. She hasn't once, since this separation, called to see how I'm doing, to talk about our marriage, or anything like that.

I hate it also at times but you do have to realize shes checked out of this M and is done, so why would she want to "talk about our marriage". In her mind it may be over and there's nothing else to discuss. As for asking how your doing, again, that's one of your needs. She doesn't need to see how your doing and there's various reasons for that. Mostly shes consumed in her own feelings so you cant expect her to consider yours.

I understand how hurt you are and the anger. I've had my fair share of it also the last year. BD for me was 13 months ago and W has showed very little if any interest in how this has effected me or the kids. D5 cries almost daily for "mommy", sometimes W sees it and gets emotional but never acknowledges it was her that did it. Maybe she knows on some level.

Once did she said sorry to me after I told her how hurt I was, early on, at what she was doing with OM. Just a "I'm sorry" and one other time she did tell me she "loved me with all of her heart and didn't regret any of the last 10 years together" but followed us with she just didn't love me now. I've not seen her cry once over his entire thing, but I've heard of her crying to others. Granted it might not be for me, it could be for what shes done to the family, or it could just be that OM didn't work out. Its something I may never know and it was difficult accepting the idea I may never see remorse over what shes done to our family. Even if she did feel it, she may never show it.

I had to swallow that hard pill just recently and you will also. If you're waiting on an apology and for her to start working on things you will be disappointed. Furthermore, even if she did say sorry to you, would that really magically end the pain shes caused? Your pain and anger, even if she caused it, will need to be worked on and healed by you. She cant and wont just fix whats been done.

I hate seeing her act happy also, as if the world is going on like nothing happened. Its like she dropped a match at a gas station and walked away with a huge smile on her face while the entire station blew up behind her, and she didn't even notice or look back to see.

We don't know what there really thinking so we cant speculate. She might not have cared because what was in front of her was more important to her survival. Or maybe she cant face what shes done so she ignores it. Either way, nothing we can do about it.

So yes, you have to let go. Theres a lot of confusion to what that means but you just leave her to live her life and you live yours. She does have a right to decide how it turns out even if others don't agree with her choices.

[Bfice3]

Evening all.

I ended up sending her a text the day Azzork replied. I had a bad weekend with the WW last weekend. Told her I was very angry with her and that I was responding to her poorly and letting my emotions control my actions and I apologize. She responded with something like, I understand and I'm sorry things are so hard.

There was no communication for several days. A text or two on Friday and I drove the kids over to her in the snow.

What [censored] for me is that she is DB'ing me. She can look at and talk to me and seemingly be completely unaffected. She is making zero contact AT ALL unless its to get the kids or tell me I need to give her some money for something.

I mean, I should just be jumping for joy right? Sent out into the world as a single man. The thing is, I can't overstate how alone I am. I know I still have my kids. But I don't have anyone else in the world that I can relate to really on a deeply personal level. I mean I've made what seems to be a pretty good friend from AA, and I like him, but something about seems off. He invited me over for dinner last night with his two kids and it was actually really nice. Yesterday was his 1 year anniversary of his wife walking out on him.

I don't know. I'm okay, I guess. It's just this is so hard. I have to truly turn to God here, and just accept that is His will, and then accept whatever new version of my life will be revealed to me in the future, rather than the life that I had been anticipating for decades.

I don't know. I'm depressed. But I'm not crying. I've been studying. Got another exam coming up in not too long.

Its just this whole no contact thing. I know that its my only choice, to take care of me and build me back, but the fact that she simply is fine with letting everything that was ours go is just so hurtful. I know technically nothing is final yet, and won't be legally for about 8 1/2 months...but it just feels so final.

Oh well. Be not afraid.

[otw]

B
i am on the NC thing as well. [censored]. My feelings are the same as yours earlier, how W hasn't once asked anything or seem to care. I liked Foggs answers. we really dont know what is going on. She could be completely gone or she could also be a wreck. No way to know.

I do think the NC is your path right now. But i think you need to make sure you are working on when there is contact. Zzz hits it often about do or say nothing. It makes al the difference in not making things worse at least.

I am very reactive and fight to make sure I am this way. It is why went NC. If i am focusing on not contacting then i can't really mess up.

[Bfice3]

Hell DB Forum. Been kinda quiet lately. Things have been really tough for me the past couple of weeks. Ever since the WW has come back from her trip, I'm just not coping with myself that well. I've been pretty depressed and spent about 5 days just ignoring basically everyone and anything. I'm starting to force myself out of my funk, and have started going to the library and am sitting here currently, just so I'm out and around other people in the real world.

Had a quick interaction with the WW this morning. She was turning in a registration form for the kids school for next year, and asked me to meet her in the parking lot after I dropped off the kids this morning. So, I did. I got all dressed up, was looking great, and was planning on being positive (for myself) and was going to work hard on not letting her affect me. I pulled up and she got out with the paperwork in hand and walked up to my car in such a way that it made me feel like getting out of my car was not what she wanted, so I just rolled the window down. She handed me the sheet and pointed where to sign without saying anything like hello or good morning. I glanced at the form quickly just to make sure it was not some trick, and then signed it. She said she didn't say that we were separated because she didn't want people to know. Basically, I sat there and didn't say a word. I handed her the forms and she gave me this big fake smile (like intentionally fake, almost smirkish) and I think I kinda made some movement with my lips and she said bye and walked away. That was it.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here. I don't have interactions that are that cold and emotionless with complete strangers on the street. I know that God has his own plans and ideas for what is going to happen, and I suppose that its possible that this marriage could be saved...but I just don't see it.

What is it that would make someone be in love with or long for someone that they don't even like?

Why do I give this woman so much power over me?

She hasn't given me any love...possibly ever. Does that change? What I mean is, if she gets with her new man is she going to change into a person who gives love freely? Does that happen? Am I just the type of person who made her incapable of giving love? I mean, I know that I have and have had major issues with codependency that have blurred a lot of the ideas of who and what I thought I was. But, in general, I'm a good guy, people seem to like me. I feel like I make a great companion. I deserve to be happy and be loved...whether or not that ever happens, I don't know...but for now I'll settle for simply not feeling this...I don't know what it is. Is this love? I don't think so. Do I love her? I don't think so. Do I love her but I'm just so hurt by her lack of love for me that anger covers up any ability for me to love her? Maybe. All I do know is that something inside me hurts and it hurts really, really bad.

I know its not healthy to think and act like this, but I'm not pursuing her. I have no contact with her anymore. Practically zero. And when I do have contact I end up in a worse mood than I was in beforehand. She's like a storm cloud that's made just for me.

Yay.

This is the point where I realize that I thought I was going to be able to say something poignant, but realize that its just sad and depressing.

You know, coming to this site depresses the hell out of me. But, its one of the only places I can go and feel not completely out of place.

A couple of mornings ago I had breakfast with a guy and he was telling me how envious he was of my situation. It totally threw me off guard. I want to optimistic...but the future just looks so bleak.

Oh well...that's enough for now.

[sandi2]

If you're waiting on an apology and for her to start working on things you will be disappointed.

Fogg, I'm glad you said this ^^. When I was relatively new on the board, it seem there were several tough LBH'S at the time. When I told them (practically word for word your own statement) not to expect an apology from a W (still in her waywardness) any time soon......I thought they would organize a lynch mob and come after me. (jk). It was not what they wanted to hear, and I was pretty much on my own.

At the time the WW is at the height of her rebellion, it is very doubtful she'll sincerely apologize for what she's doing. She may say the words, but she won't feel it in her heart. How many people do you know who are acting out and at the same time apologize for it? Their credibility is seriously doubted when they don't stop hurting you, right? Well, that's how it is with her.

I will tell you something that may sound more crazy than you can digest. Except for some type of revenge affair, I don't believe most WW's are doing what they do just to hurt the H. In other words, hurting him is not her objective in her wayward behavior. In her mindset, she is justified and deserves to do whatever it takes to be happy. If anyone gets hurt......then that's an unfortunate event as she progresses onward. She is focused on what she wants, not on how she may be hurting anyone. That is why some WW's can drop the bomb without crying or expressing concern. She is done and has no desire to save the M. Of course, some WW's will vary in this, but the bottom line is they will do what they want to do, regardless who gets hurt........as long as it's not them. That's why I talk so much about consequences. It's about all that is able to get through the fog.

[Bfice3]

So, I called my wife last night. I've been in this terrible funk for the past few weeks, isolating myself, and just generally not doing well. I've been going backwards in that I have started trying to e-track her again many times a day. Well, today I went to match.com to see if she was online, and I couldn't find her account. Did a username search and her account doesn't come up. Nothing on the age and location criteria either. So, then I started panicking (well panic isn't the right word) but I thought perhaps she found her one new guy and didn't need the site anymore. I know that's dumb, but anyway. So, I called her. I was wanting to see if I could gauge where she was in all of this.

She answered and we had a pretty bizarre and ultimately I know useless conversation. And yes, I know that by calling her I was pursuing her, but I didn't care. We didn't really fight though I was certainly expressing a lot of my anger at her. I told her how hurt I am by everything she has done and she said she was sorry. I didn't really accept her apology. I expressed to her all of the things that she had done to me and that I was completely justified in feeling hurt by her actions. Then she started saying some things like, 'How do we fix it?' 'How do we move forward from here?' I told her you just have to make it happen. I said when you wanted another man you went out and made sure that happened, lied to your husband, made adjustments for work, etc...and you went and found him. You have to do the same thing here. She replied, 'Point taken'

I don't know. We kind of left it where I had basically expressed all of my anger, pain, and frustration with her. I told her that I cannot go after her, cannot pursue her, that I have to stay where I am with myself emotionally and if she comes to find me then we'll see what happens from there.

She said things like she didn't think I would talk to her. And that she knew I wouldn't want her back and this and that. I told her that I do love her, I never wanted any of this to happen and that I do want her to love me. But that I can't guarantee anything about whats going to happen in the future between us.

She ultimately told me thank you for calling. And she wanted to know if she called me to talk if I would talk to her. I said yes. I said I'm not going to be waiting around to here from her, but yes. She said what if you don't answer. I said then you keep calling, then you text, then you email, or hey you come knock on my door I'm only 10 minutes away. If you want it to happen you will make it happen.

And that was basically it.

So...I feel better after our phone conversation. The question is why? I know that the conversation is meaningless. I called her. She still hasn't taken a single action to try to communicate with me on her own. I know that it is only her actions that I can trust. So, I feel like maybe I feel better because I was able to get a lot of things off of my chest. I was able to express to her, relatively calmly, exactly how I have been feeling and feel as though she kind of listened.

I don't know. So, for now I go back to my routine of no contact unless it is absolutely necessary for the taking care of the kids. I'll try to have no expectations from her. I don't know if she will ever call or not. But, I said a lot, and feel like I've let most everything that I have inside on the table.

The ball is in her court. I have a life to live, whatever that life ends up being I still don't know. But, I just wanted to share what happened and let all of you tell me how I did, I guess.

Actually, I'm more interested in learning about what to do IF something does happen. How should I handle a phone call wanting to talk? How do I handle a text message asking to talk? Etc...
Obviously I know that it may never happen. And I'm guessing that I need to work on making sure my anger doesn't get in the way. To this point, all of the 32 steps and validation and all of that just really hasn't been relevant or necessary. I guess, I need to go back and read something.

Anyway...later all.

[Bfice3]

Oh yeah, and one other thing. Just a follow up. So, I've made a google calendar and I'm going in and filling out all of the days and times of everything that has happened, and will continue to happen. Ultimately this is just for me, and well...as a record...just in case. But, also, yesterday when I went to drop the kids off, I had my phone set to use an audio recording app. I recorded the interaction of me walking up to the house. Now, in this case, the WW decided to stay out on the back porch, so there was no interaction from her, but one thing was interesting about the recording was that, since I knew that it was going...my attitude was different...I wasn't playacting or anything like that, but I felt calmer...it was weird. Makes me wonder if ultimately that could be some kind of mental trick...pretend that everything I do is being recorded to keep myself acting right. Anyway....