H just moved out, making it hard to detach

[Zues126]

Loving 2x4 coming, get ready.

For someone who's spouse walked away because they said they can't live with you anymore you sure seem to act like you have all the answers.

Clearly it's WAH's problem. He's insecure, misunderstands you, and is going through MLC...so DB or no DB you clearly need to reach out to control him so you can 'wake him up' and he can 'understand your POV', because if he could just see things the way you see them, obviously he'd come back, do what you want, and everything would be fine.

The fact is that I felt the EXACT same way as your H during my M. I also felt she was 100% mom and 0% wife, that my needs were completely dismissed, there was no collaboration and it seemed like there was almost a parent/child dynamic in that WAW thought she was right and if I disagreed with her I was wrong.

If H feels the way I did, your efforts to reach out and wake him up to your way of thinking will just come across as more of the same old ciluzen. And the fact that you are this dismissive of him will absolutely come across in what you do. In fact, it has for years, clearly.

Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Try a 180...suppose your WAH ISN'T wrong. Suppose he ISN'T going through MLC. Suppose he has VALID REASONS to feel the way he feels. What can you do to understand HIS point of view. Where can you realize that YOUR insecurities made you behave destructively. What can you do to change YOU?

I reread this entire thread before posting. You are doing a lot of hard work. Reading the books, setting out written goals, posting frequently. All good stuff. I'm sure this last post was a lot of venting. I know you're trying to deal with your own stuff to. Just please, please, please, STOP with the diagnosing WAS stuff. That is POISON you are drinking. Instead keep to your own stuff, stay humble, and take as much ownership as you can. Remember, if it's his fault your M is doomed, if it was you, you have a shot to change some of it.

[ciluzen]

Thank you, Zues, for the 2x4. I know I needed it. I will probably need a few more of your swings soon, given my history.

I WAS in full vent mode. I was having a good time driving up to the hill in the snow, something that scared me in the past which drove H crazy (all of my fears, actually), but that now out of necessity doesn't scare me at all. My mind was able to take a break from separation issues for once and I was excited/nervous about the day. Then, boom, he was there. It literally threw me. Like suddenly seeing dinosaurs walking out from behind the cars in the lot...completely unreal.

Seek not to be understood, but to understand. That is actually my job...I analyze behavior and create a plan to change it. It is harder to do to yourself, though. Biases and such. Too close to the subject. I am and have been trying to understand his POV. It is true that I don't like being misunderstood, but my 180's are in trying to address things he has brought up (always qualified by, "I'm not asking you to change.") How can I try to see his POV without trying to diagnose his specific WAS stuff?

These are my issues that he has brought up, things I base my 180's on:

My lack of confidence.
My fear of being alone yet acting like a loner
My dissatisfaction and unhappiness (he believes he made me miserable, I know I made me miserable)
My inability to ask him for things or for him to do things for me
My passive aggressive tendency to get mad at him when he was having fun with others and then ether withdraw from group or withdraw and then attack.
My relying on him for all of my social activities
My inability to appreciate the things he did for me.


I was doing a GAL activity, a 180, and trying to detach as well as trying to revisit who I am by trying skiing without him for the first time in my life. And then he was there. It upset my apple cart. I was able to get past it, but I didn't like hearing that I didn't seem happy to see him and called to correct it. I guess my wanting to correct his assumption is controlling behavior. But isn't it also communicating? Should I not communicate clearly for fear of it being controlling? When is it one or the other?

[inpain]

It is all so hard Ciluzen and again I know exactly where you're coming from with wanting to explain to H that he misunderstood your reactions at the ski slope.

You seem to be in the same situation as me, in that your H has moved out, which means we have to do the LRT. Do you have the DR book? I keep reading the LRT part every night to remind myself. I don't like any of what it tells me to do to be honest. No contact, etc, and I really can't see how it is supposed to save a M either, but I am trying to stick to it.

I'm sorry I am not much help.

[Zues126]

Thanks for taking things well C. I know it stinks, and trust me, I'm sorry you're here.

I do have a question. On your 180 list you mention a lot of general things like 'not appreciating him' and 'being miserable'. How specifically did this play out in your M? Did you push him away sexually? Did you talk negatively about him to your friends or family? Just trying to understand how this manifested.

Also, what were the reasons you wrestled with this? If you were plucked back into your M today, do you think you'd be able to do it all differently, or would there still be underlying personal struggles?

I can tell you that even after 18 months and a lot of introspection, I'm still not sure I would be able to do much better plugged back into the M I was in. Which is another reason I have no desire to date. Until I feel like I could do it better I don't want to play again. How prepared would you be to reenter that R, and what would be the biggest challenge?

Keep posting about you, and keep digging really deep on these types of questions. There are things we avoid for most of our lives because we don't think we can overcome them. Something like this gives us a surge of power to change. Use it wisely and make great things happen for yourself!

[Zues126]

I keep reading the LRT part every night to remind myself. I don't like any of what it tells me to do to be honest. No contact, etc, and I really can't see how it is supposed to save a M either, but I am trying to stick to it.

When you're in a hole, quit digging. Who just quoted that?

Sometimes I think the primary function of LRT is to stop the LBS from making it worse. There is simply no way a new LBS can avoid doing clingy and controlling things. The "They need to make the M work" emotions are so strong that it overshadow's their sensitivity to the WAS's "I am dying in this M" feelings, and the more the LBS preaches from their hymnal the more the WAS feels like the LBS just wants them for selfish reasons and doesn't understand or care about them.

The other reason the LBS has to step away is to let WAS experience the consequences of their choices WITHOUT being able to blame the LBS. As long as the LBS is emotionally intimate the WAS will continue to assume it's the LBS making them unhappy, and that more distance will solve the problem. Or that the reason their new life stinks is because of LBS. Only once LBS disengages, detaches, drops the rope, and lets WAS go on their own journey can they have the opportunity to realize that their misery is still there, only now they don't have a partner that loves them in the picture.

Notice, I said "opportunity". It's true that many WAS's will continue their narrative about the LBS being at fault during the M, and that happiness is just around the corner when they find the 'right' partner. This is clearly not true. But when someone has gone through enough pain they reach a point where they desperately pulling levers in their life hoping something will stop the bleeding.

It's sad (and hurtful, and infuriating) to witness, but ultimately the best thing to do is be nowhere near that trainwreck.

Instead own your half, break the co-dependant cycle, and become the person only a fool would leave. WAS may never look back, but if they do make it a pleasant view, and if they don't you have the rest of your life to be you, so make you great!

[ciluzen]

Thanks for taking things well C. I know it stinks, and trust me, I'm sorry you're here.

I do have a question. On your 180 list you mention a lot of general things like 'not appreciating him' and 'being miserable'. How specifically did this play out in your M? Did you push him away sexually? Did you talk negatively about him to your friends or family? Just trying to understand how this manifested.

Well, those things are general because in the few times I've actually been able to discuss what went wrong, that is what he said. They are his feelings, right or wrong,and I've been trying to find out what I did to give him those impressions. I loved sex with him...I'm very touchy feely and he's very good at, well, just very good. So no, didn't push him away. I also talked him up to people...I was proud of him and what he did.
No, it was me being insecure. I met him in college when my friends were close and loving, my teachers told me what a great painter I was, and I was ready for anything that came my way. Then, when all of that support, love and praise was gone, insecurity arose. It was not enough to hear it from him...I stopped appreciating what he said and I became critical of me. Then of everything. Not him though, but since he made everything possible, he took it that way.
Also, what were the reasons you wrestled with this? If you were plucked back into your M today, do you think you'd be able to do it all differently, or would there still be underlying personal struggles?

I have learned A LOT since our separation. Taken a good hard look at me and how I've acted. I wouldn't say I was miserable, more dissatisfied with my life. My world revolved around him and I wasn't DOING things for me, except putting food in my face. I'm a good cook...I had to taste it! I seldom painted or really dressed well (hoody and jeans uniform). But all meals were from scratch and fresh, kids were involved in lots of activities,I had other peoples kids at my home 24-7, I heliooptered and lived a stay at home fantasy while trying to smother my husband with my presence whenever he was home. I can hear him now saying, "Why don't you paint more in the studio I made you? Why do you always wear baggy clothes? Why don't you go out with your friends? He needed a break from me and was telling me all along what I needed to do to get happy. I was so worried about losing him that I made myself unhappy and lost him. Now I am trying to find happy me again... and it is slowly happening.

I can tell you that even after 18 months and a lot of introspection, I'm still not sure I would be able to do much better plugged back into the M I was in. Which is another reason I have no desire to date. Until I feel like I could do it better I don't want to play again. How prepared would you be to reenter that R, and what would be the biggest challenge?

Well, when you feel safe and secure that you're supportive spouse will love you no matter what, sometimes you can be blind to the damage you're doing by not working on making yourself happy. He felt that my complaints were a sign of not appreciating his hard work and took all of my complaints personally. My husband had a limit and I found it. I now have insight I didn't have before. I am working on making myself happy, creating friendships, finding activities I enjoy,I'm almost down to my college weight and loving how I look in my new clothes, ...just taking care of me and my needs. My biggest challenge will be communication, but I am learning to listen much better.
Keep posting about you, and keep digging really deep on these types of questions. There are things we avoid for most of our lives because we don't think we can overcome them. Something like this gives us a surge of power to change. Use it wisely and make great things happen for yourself!

[ciluzen]

So, revisiting this weekend and journeling.
Had a long talk about stuff with H. No begging, pleading or crying. Just calm talk about things.
I was able to ask him what made him turn around at the hill. What was he thinking and feeling. He would not talk about feelings, he doesn't do that; actively avoids it. He said he thought that he should come up and help me carry my stuff up to the lodge. When pushing for feelings through validating techniques (new skill!) he admitted that he could have driven on but thought what would he do if it was anyone else he knew? And then proceeded to give me examples of all of the families with multiple kids he'd helped out on ski trips over the years. Still no feelings, or explanation. So if he saw (named a female friend of D1 and his male F) he would do the same. He paused and said I don't know. I said, so you didn't think my friend and I could carry our stuff, or you were being the gentleman you've always been? He admitted he did not see that my friend was in the car. That caused me to pause. He then told me he looked for my car before he left for about 5 minutes and had decided that I didn't come. So you thought I had baled on my plan and then were surprised and happy when you passed my car? Yes. So what did you expect when you found me? I don't know. I let him think for awhile then said, well that was very thoughtful of you to come make sure that I was ok.
This is how the conversation went because he started talking about other things that went into R talk. His choice.I just went with it.

My take away from taboo R talk:

He is stressed about getting old...brought it up a lot.
He is stressed about money, tired of treading water with his 3 year old business...but we talked of how the turn over of new equipment and redecorating are almost done.
He will not speak of his feelings about his mother's alzheimers, but brings up his worries about his own simple memory lapses constantly. Big stressor.
He spoke of our adversarial and antagonistic 25 years together, so I pushed on that point for clarity. We were able to pare that down together with some questioning and explaining. I was able to show him that some of that was just being comfortable enough to show your hopes and dreams to someone, not saying you don't like or appreciate what is being done for you. I appreciate the fact that he wanted to help me carry my skis; it is not a sign that I don't like him or appreciate the feelings behind it when I want to prove to me that I can do it myself.

He brought up how my comments about things I wanted to change in the house we built together made him feel that I didn't like or appreciate him. I agreed that his feelings about that were understandable, but that maybe there were other ways to look at it. I gave him some time to digest that, then asked him why I never hung my own pictures on the walls at home (he knows this). Because the more I look at one, the more I will find something that, with fresh eyes, I will feel needs to be changed to make it better.I then pointed out that he does that, too, with our homes and his office. Its a natural thing to want something to change until it is as close to perfect as it can get. It isn't always a complaint and it isn't a personal attack. I liked the paintings enough to frame them, but there is always room for improvement.
I finally asked if he had talked to our former pastor whom he was talking to me about at one point. The only person he could really open up to emotionally. He seemed a little bit more ready to talk to him I hope he does, since he really has only discussed our Separation and R with me, and I'm a little biased.

[Zues126]

Ciluzen, thanks for the thoughtful replies. In regards to the dynamic during the M, sounds like the biggest issue was that you were unhappy with yourself and counted on his constant affirmation to make up for the hole in your heart. Then when he failed to affirm you to the degree you desired, you felt let down, that it was his fault you were unhappy, and you began to resent him because if he loved you and saw how much you needed his constant affirmation should do more to give it to you. This, in turn, put a strain on him, because he felt he couldn't make you happy. It wasn't fun to be with a miserable spouse, and you made him to feel it was his fault for not being good enough to give you what you needed. So he was a failure being a man unable to please his W, living with an unhappy W that thinks it's his fault.

Is that something like accurate? Just trying to make sure I understand.

Actually, sounds very similar to JellyB. I say similar because she, too, said that she maintained good physical relations, and was a pleaser in a lot of other ways as well. JB, if you're reading, can you chime in?

Anyway, if I am reading this right then it is very similar to the dynamic in my R as well. I, too, felt insufficient. My love languages were physical touch and words of affirmation. I NEEDED that from XW to make up for the feeling of being broken that I lived with perpetually. And unfortunately no matter how hard she tried she could never fill that hole. As a result SHE felt like a failure, and it triggered her OWN insecurities about not being good enough. The conversations were always me saying "If you loved me you..." and her saying "I just want to be loved for who I am, not what I do for you, I'm never enough just being me..."

I think it's easier to 'make yourself happy' when you're on your own, simply because there is no one else to blame. I compare it to a 4 year old throwing a fit. If mom and dad are there they will scream and scream, trying to get mom or dad to do something (give them something, a hug, a toy, etc) to cheer them up. But put that 4 year old in a time out and they quickly realize they can scream all they want but the only person they are making miserable is themselves, so they decide to chill out and have fun staring at the pattern of paint on the wall.

I know I had that experience, and it sounds like you have too to a certain extent. What spooks me is that I don't know if I'm really 'better', or if I'm just better on my own because there's no one else to yell at. I think the amount of time I've pondered this question, the loss I've gone through, and just the experience I've gained, well, I'm hoping it's enough that I'd do better next time around. But I'm still not confident because I know how tough of a trap it was.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, mindreading, or projecting, so please let me know where I'm missing the mark.

As for your conversation with WAH...C, what can I say? It kind of put me off a little. Same thing as I posted earlier. I do like that you were calm and not clingy. But when I read your recap it did still come across as trying to sell him on your way of thinking. Maybe I'm mistaking the way the conversation played out, but for example:

I was able to ask him what made him turn around at the hill. What was he thinking and feeling. He would not talk about feelings, he doesn't do that; actively avoids it. He said he thought that he should come up and help me carry my stuff up to the lodge. When pushing for feelings through validating techniques (new skill!) he admitted that he could have driven on but thought what would he do if it was anyone else he knew? And then proceeded to give me examples of all of the families with multiple kids he'd helped out on ski trips over the years. Still no feelings, or explanation. So if he saw (named a female friend of D1 and his male F) he would do the same. He paused and said I don't know. I said, so you didn't think my friend and I could carry our stuff, or you were being the gentleman you've always been? He admitted he did not see that my friend was in the car. That caused me to pause. He then told me he looked for my car before he left for about 5 minutes and had decided that I didn't come. So you thought I had baled on my plan and then were surprised and happy when you passed my car? Yes. So what did you expect when you found me? I don't know. I let him think for awhile then said, well that was very thoughtful of you to come make sure that I was ok.

This is only my impression, but the way I take this is: WAH doesn't talk about feelings which is quirky at best, a problem at worst...so since he's got this defect I have to find tactful ways to interrogate him and force him to have the conversation I feel we should have in which he opens up in ways he's normally not comfortable.

Phrases like "he avoids it" make me perceive judgment (although it's an observation) based on the follow up. "I got him to admit" is similar. And the entire thing makes it seem like he's a witness facing a cross-examination.

I pushed on that point for clarity. We were able to pare that down together with some questioning and explaining. I was able to show him that some of that was just being comfortable enough to show your hopes and dreams to someone, not saying you don't like or appreciate what is being done for you

He brought up how my comments about things I wanted to change in the house we built together made him feel that I didn't like or appreciate him. I agreed that his feelings about that were understandable, but that maybe there were other ways to look at it. I gave him some time to digest that, then asked him why I never hung my own pictures on the walls at home (he knows this). Because the more I look at one, the more I will find something that, with fresh eyes, I will feel needs to be changed to make it better.I then pointed out that he does that, too, with our homes and his office. Its a natural thing to want something to change until it is as close to perfect as it can get. It isn't always a complaint and it isn't a personal attack. I liked the paintings enough to frame them, but there is always room for improvement.

The bold words...this isn't validation. "I understand how you feel but here's why you could feel differently", followed by a lecture on how else he could view it. To me you completely overlooked that he spent decades of his life feeling insufficient...and now when he's trying to tell you that...this from a man that has ended the M because he can't live like this anymore and isn't one to share feelings...but when he actually takes a moment to open up and try one more time to let you see into his heart and witness the depths of the pain he's been living with...and you say "yeah, ok, BUT" and dismiss it all and make it his fault for not looking at it the way you do?

I finally asked if he had talked to our former pastor whom he was talking to me about at one point. The only person he could really open up to emotionally. He seemed a little bit more ready to talk to him I hope he does, since he really has only discussed our Separation and R with me, and I'm a little biased.

So now that we've established he's looking at it wrong, now we need to make sure he's getting professional help, because clearly someone needs to set him back on track so he can view things the way you do and everything will be better again.



That all said, what I LOVE out of this conversation is that you were able to recap the main points he was trying to make. This is EXACTLY what you should be spending your time doing. Understanding HIS point of view.

Really, your M might be easy to save.

1. Decide to be happy, with or without him, and regardless of what he chooses to do.

2. Listen, validate, STFU. Educational or career or skills or intelligence aside...stuff it. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

3. Show him through consistent actions that you respect his point of view as being as valid as your own, and that you are willing to make changes to your own behavior accordingly to form a better partnership.

I think you're doing really well with step one, and I think you're trying really hard with step two. Seems you have some habits to break here. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that there isn't a time and place for you to speak your voice, have your own views validated and heard...but now is NOT the time. Since you don't have a DB Coach I'll tell you what mine told me: Being without a voice and letting her run you over is not building a model as to what a new M might look like. But now is NOT the time to speak your voice. That comes later, if and when she's ready to recommit to rebuilding a relationship. I think this applies to you as well.

Ciluzen, I say all of this with nothing but the best will. I do NOT pretend I have all of the answers. This isn't coming from a place of 'wisdom', just telling you how I'd have felt being your H and what I would be craving in my heart of hearts. I know I've written a lot and don't know your sitch all that well, so please take what helps and throw out what doesn't.

[JellyB]

Hi Ciluzen,

I am here Zues,

Ciluzen, Zues has been the yin to my yang for a while. He doesn't let me hide because he knows where the hiding places are.

You will get great advice from Zues, because Zues understands the position from all sides. He is such a blessing as he understands the LBS so well, but understands the unappreciated, unfulfilled H also.

Zues will bring you such perspective. He has allowed me to see a side of my partners I never saw and gain understanding. His posts on my threads brought me huge insight. Please feel free to read them.

Note Zues and I can get very existential, but there are lots of goodies amoungst the occasional indulgent navel gazing. I wouldnt be without Zues.


As for me I am writing while at work today, I would love to offer what I can. I have been following you sitch with interest, but before I offer further support I would like to go back and read your sitch again. I would only want to add value, and not post to you for the sake of it. Because there are other's here who would potentially bring you more value.

On the surface though you are a much more rational thinker than I am. So alot of my experience won't apply. Also it seems reading your posts to Zues that you see lot of the initial places that have required 180's. You have made progress which is brilliant!!

In the meantime keep posting and take on board Zues's comments. His 2x4's are gentler in the long run than they intially look.

Talk soon Ciluzen.


Much Love

Jellyb XXXX

[ciluzen]

Ok, Z. I told you there would have to be more whacks with the 2x4.

I have spent the night and the morning reading and re-reading our convos and re-reading DR. All I can say is, thank you for trying to open up my eyes to how I am my own worst enemy in this sitch. Or, in the spirit of my new 180 of trying to not to say so much; THANK YOU.

Realizations:

- My "validating" always carries a "but" which invalidates.
- He talked of being a control freak so I placed him in that category, but I am probably a bigger one and on an emotional level.
- I am actually really angry that he left and am fixated on being a victim, which is the real reason I am having such a hard time detaching.
- He has been telling me how he feels all along...I was too dense to hear him expressing his emotions. "You keep telling me I'm wrong" or "you think I'm doing this wrong" should have been clues to how much emotional pain I was putting him in.
- I'm really stubborn. I always thought I was go-with-the-flow flexible, but I'm not.

My new 180's (feel free to cheer or bash or critique):

-compliment him when he treats me cordially or nicely, without questioning why
- express happiness FOR him when he talks of fun activities he gets to do- he works VERY hard at a stressful job-he deserves those fun breaks with anyone who makes him happy
- praise him for contacting his parents so much and let him know how great it is that they love him enough to do anything for him
- Let him know when he brings up D2 that I am usually at a loss when it comes to how to deal with her. Actually ask him what HE thinks we should do
- STOP initiating "talks". Stop initiating contact at all unless there is a real emergency or concern.
- He wants to support me in our house during the separation, so I created a budget that would cover bills and wrote it out to leave with his mail at the office. I also suggested he just deposit the money each month instead of calling me to come get it. It sounds cold, but he said at one point he wanted a business arrangement with me caring for the house. So,I think that will be better for us both with less contact.
- Ask him to change his address on the bills and periodicals he has to either his office or apartment.
- If he chooses to make contact, even if he asks questions about my life, I can be vague and brief (I think I can, I think I can...)
- GAL the heck out of my life. I am thankful I have a new business with my art to work on, a fulfilling job, a new church, and some new friends to make time for. I am grateful for my two busy daughters and a new son-in-law, as well as an elderly mother who has called me every night to see how I'm doing. My attention should be on these things right now, not on something of which I have no control and someone who says they don't think they like me.