The Next Day...

[MrBond]

"In short, writing yourself a love letter is a wicca/pagan ritual for self love.

It is self-diety worship."

This is gobbledy gook.

Pretty funny if you ask me.

If anyone knows GB's history, he never came here reading DB or trying to understand it, he says he saved his marriage by putting his foot down and it was through the grace of God that it was saved.

I'd take his advice with strong grain of salt.

Vanilla,

You WERE insulted and for your advice and it wasn't even directed at GB. I think your advice has been great and I respect you for your opinion.

Mahhty, just remember that everyone on this forum is offering an OPINION. Anyone who insults another's advice is usually not one who respects others. I've seen MANY posters like this come and go. They believe that what they believe is the best way. There is no absolute way to go about your sitch. It's your life, navigate it the best way that YOU can.

Peace.

[mahhhty]

Sandi,
Thank you for finding them!!!!

RD, Julie, Mr Bond, GB, Vanilla,
Abraham Lincoln once said that "if I was born with your parents and lived your life I would be you."

I don't always but I do try to never discount someone's ideas or feelings. Obviously I'm divorced so I'm still learning. Both GB and V have taken probably hours to help me. Certainly I dont fully grasp or understand or agree with every sentence but I always try to treat all with respect and gratitude that they took the time. I'm also intrigued by situations that challenge me as that promotes growth.

I appreciate all posts and in that light will not promote controversy as it doesn't help me in any way.

All of us are smarter than one of us, that's the idea behind community. Please treat others like you would like to be treated.

Now... I have five kids to play with I must head out. I'll b back Monday!

[raliced]

Also, I see her Mom a couple times a week (for kid's daycare). I know her parents and sister's family all still care about me. But I have animosity towards all of them for not telling me about the other man. Is this silly? Should I confront them?

Hey Mahhty - I saw this on your thread a few days ago and meant to comment, because this is something I see pop up in various threads from time to time and I have unusually strong feelings about it, but time got away from me and your thread went in another direction in the meantime.

First of all - I don't want to make any false equivalencies here - my in-laws didn't know anything about the affair - so I didn't have to deal with that additional betrayal. And I do think that the right thing for them to have done was speak up.


All that being said, here's why I would cut them some slack. I'm going to assume that they are generally good people (sometimes I read about in-laws on these forums that sound like they immediately close ranks at the first whiff of divorce, but that doesn't sound like the case here). There is a lot of advice floating around out there to stay out of situations like these - in fact, I would venture to say its sort of the generally accepted behavior. And of course - you probably don't know how this was spun by your ex-wife - but I would venture to guess she did put some sort of spin on it.

Mahhty - I've made lots of mistakes in my sitch- but I will claim some success with how I've treated my in-laws. I stopped thinking of them as in-laws and more as my children's relatives. I've gone out of my way to maintain a relationship with them that is independent of my X. I frequently send pictures, expedite phone calls and Facetime with the kids (they live on the opposite coast), routinely inquire about their various health problems, comment positively on their Facebook posts (XH is not on Facebook - so this makes it easier for me - I understand not everyone can do this), remember birthdays etc. etc. The result has been a good relationship with them. We don't talk about XH very often, and when we do it's just factually based (he has the kids today, etc.). I've even vacationed with MIL and will do so again. It has not been perfect. They are human and they love their son, and I'm sure there are times when they wonder if there is more to the story and if maybe I did something to "cause" what happened.

Anyway - here are the two massive benefits I have gotten from my efforts. There isn't much awkwardness between me and them. I have years of kid related milestones ahead (birthdays, graduations, marriages etc.) and these she be much easier both for me and for the kids now. Second - my girls get to see me and their father's family together. I think that is important and of great benefit to them, rather then having two completely separate sides of the family. (I wish it went the other direction, but XH has made no gestures at all to my family, even after my father passed away this summer.)

I know you're hurt right now - but for what it's worth, I'd encourage you to establish your own relationship with them. It hurts no one.

[mahhhty]

Raliced -
It sounds as if you've done a great job in this area. It's hard for me because I do feel like the family slighted me (as no one told me about the OM, I think they enabled her to leave by trying to "help"). However, I do know that they care. I know they all care in some way. I still get handshakes and hugs. My X-Nieces love me. I was always the fun uncle who would get on the floor and play.

But I think you took the high road. I can do that. I can bridge the gap and formulate a relationship based around me without her. I used to see and hang out with them more than any friends. It will never be that way again.

Thank you for such good advice and sharing your experience!

[mahhhty]

I was just drafting up a catch up journal entry. I got distracted and read this.

Divorce Busting
December 2 at 10:15am · Boulder, CO

Love is never enough.
Falling in love is easy.
Staying in love is another matter.
You need to know how to make a relationship work in order to keep love alive.
We're not born knowing how to create loving relationships.
If we didn't have great role models growing up, there's no way we can know what to do when things get tough.
That is, unless you learn new relationship skills.
Don't believe the myth that relationships just come naturally.
They do only after you know the formula for creating lasting love.
Take a relationship skill-building class.
Go to a therapist who also teaches skills.
Read great self-help books.
Become an educated partner.
Then pass this wisdom down to your children.
The world will be a better place.
Michele Weiner-Davis

This clearly was what I tried to attain in my situation, vs her position ILYBINILWY and relationships aren't work, they shouldn't be hard, my parents never fought, etc (which all are probably supporting her affliction either physically or mentally for another man).

I've had hope. I've wanted to work at this to keep our family together and show our kids the real meaning of lasting love. I've documented in all these threads (to the best of my ability) what I wanted to do, what happened, and I tried to adapt and take responsibility. I've maintained an idealistic mind and had hope for my family.

But honestly this morning.... I woke up this AM during a vivid dream. One in which we were hooking up until the OM came back. I'm well aware, I'm not as detached as I wish I would be. But seriously... I think its time for me to make some new friends and putting myself out there.

Anyway, on a better front. Business is kicking off January 1st and I couldn't be more excited. Got three new vendors, I'll own real estate, have a sweat setup, 18K-20K cars pass the location daily, I found my first full-time employee. The pieces are coming together.

Dreams don't work unless you do. And I'm not scared of rolling up my sleeves.

[mahhhty]

Thanks to Sandi, I'm burning through Coach's posts. Coach and his W (Greek) were on this board years ago. From what I've been able to grasp. Greek left and Coach attracted her back through respect, space and living his life.... If this is not accurate please let me know.

11/11/12
afa states

"It sounds good and it might be something which could re-ignite the flame."

Coach states

"Flame = Fire.

Fire = Fuel (common values/goals/love/desires) + Oxygen (space,boundaries) + Heat (attraction)

Women don't love men they can't respect. Being someones second choice has consequences. Be in charge of your actions. Too many confuse patience with time, patience is a mindset. Taking healthy actions requires no patience. Choose to thrive thru this instead of holding on to survive. Your sitch can change quickly when you start a fire in your life."

[mahhhty]

I have a lot to do today, but I got dragged into another thread and I think this can resonate with MANY. I wish I could get Coach a beer....

Why and How.....

I don't have the outline worked out in my head yet so this is a work in progress. I tell this from my perspective of what worked for me and my view of what "love" is. I was the LBS, I am a man and I was not dealing with a A on either side. So here goes.

Two goals of DB. First work on yourself to become stronger, wiser, and love yourself. You can't become attractive to your WAS until you have yourself squared away - emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically. You can't give out what you don't have. This idea leads to the "love is the opposite of fear" concept.

When the LBS spouse initally gets here we are now post-bomb. Lot's of emotions - anger, guilt, confusion, frustration, and fear. Very valid and normal reactions to the situation. We also tend to pursue right after the bomb (bargaining.) Then maybe some helplessness and hopelessness (depression.) Once we accept the situation for what it is can we start working on ourselves and our M. Add the denial in pre-bomb and you got the five stages of grief. (Denial, bargaining, anger depression, and acceptance.) All negative emotions on this side of the ledger - fear being the "King Snake." ("snakes on a brain" is my phrase for your deepest fears.)
Fear blinds, cripples and weakens us from being our best. Fear is a coping tool to keep us from getting hurt, in DB world it's our heart that we think we are protecting. Yet by protecting it we are keeping it from healing, growing and giving.
So the goal of DB is to cope by:
180 behaviour - replace unproductive with healthy and productive
GAL - stay busy, keep your brain and hands productive (quiets the snakes for a while)
act as if - pretend to be strong until you are
goals - focus and measurable actions
try something different - big one not talked about enough here, open your mind, heart and soul up to new ideas and letting go of dysfunctional beliefs. I think this step walks you from acceptance across the divide from fear to love.

The great divide - limboland. We have accepted we need to work on ourselves, we acknowledge our M might not be saved, we understand our role in our sitch and we are detaching. We are also afraid of moving forward - might hear more WAS script, rollercoaster makes me sick, might get more empty promises. Guess what? For our WAS to be where they are they have already reached this point and have decided that the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving (read FEAR.)
So you fellow DBers have a choice stay in the land of fear or choose to love anyway. By finding this place you already know what some of the answers are. It's finding the strength, wisdom and love to push on.
Just saw Groundhog Day over the weekend. What was the transformation Phil Connors (Bill Murray) had to get out of his limboland? He took the focus off of his needs and wants and started caring about others (love.) Until then he met with frustration and depression. Once he got his mojo on then he was seen as attractive and interesting to not just to Rita, his love interest, but the whole community.

So whether or not you reconcile one of your goals should be get yourself to the point where you love yourelf enougth to be able to love (philia) others, be a friend, and give with no expectations. You have to be pretty secure in who you are to do this. To get here you need to do work. This in itself it why DBing is valuable.

Becoming friends. Let's define friends first. From Wiki:
Quote:
Friendship is co-operative and supportive behavior between two or more people. In this sense, the term connotes a relationship which involves mutual knowledge, esteem, and affection and respect along with a degree of rendering service to friends in times of need or crisis. Friends will welcome each other's company and exhibit loyalty towards each other, often to the point of altruism. Their tastes will usually be similar and may converge, and they will share enjoyable activities. They will also engage in mutually helping behavior, such as exchange of advice and the sharing of hardship. A friend is someone who may often demonstrate reciprocating and reflective behaviors. Yet for many, friendship is nothing more than the trust that someone or something will not harm them.

Value that is found in friendships is often the result of a friend demonstrating the following on a consistent basis:

the tendency to desire what is best for the other,
sympathy and empathy,
honesty, perhaps in situations where it may be difficult for others to speak the truth, especially in terms of pointing out the perceived faults of one's counterpart,
mutual understanding.


Here is the bridge from fear to love:
- wanting what is best for the other - true giving
- sympathy and empathy-- "you need space, OK I understand that."
- honesty-- healthy boundaries, communication, and transparency
- mutual understanding --validation, no defensiveness
I would add a big one here because it is at the heart of loving yourself - forgiveness. Accept yours/his/hers faults and love anyway.

Love is a verb. It's what you do that shows your spouse you love them. Yes that is possible while seperated. Be a great parent, I read here once that women love to see their husbands play with their kids. I was all over that. See things from your WAS perspective, you can't be effective at that if you are over on the fear/anger side. Take away all of their objections and make the changes for yourself. Make yourself attractive from the inside out.

So why be friends? It is the first step to intimate love. Jealousy could work but in my mind you are starting the relationship over based on fear not love. (still have the work to do.) I want to be the kind of friend to my W that is unbeatable. I want to flip that fear of staying vs fear of leaving into the joy of staying outweighs any potential joy of leaving. It's at this stage that I can continue down the path of deepening the love. This is the second goal of DBing.

I know some of the DBers won't reconcile their M, some of the posters I learned the most from didn't. Getting across the divide to the "land of love" (sounds real cheesy I know) from the fog of fear and land of snakes will make you a stronger, wiser, and more loving person. If your spouse had a addiction how would you handle it? Just try it and see what happens. You all can handle it.

[Gmum]

Smart man, that Coach.

Thanks for posting.

[gonegrl]

Mahhhty, thanks for posting. I am thinking about the line "being someone's second choice has consequences" and what that might mean literally. Sometimes I need a 2x4. The consequences I think are that I should detach. That I shouldn't be too easy. Not in a game playing way, but in an honest way. I am going to think on these words.

I wish I had found this board right after BD, I made so many mistakes for 4 months. I am going to look up Coach's posts. I wonder if they are still together?

[otw]

Pho
I am laughing to myself thinking about what I did in the months before I started here. We should start a thread just posting what we did!