Just did the dog swap and want to get a few things down before I forget them. As usual, this was about an hour conversation until my W had to run to another appointment.
We talked. There was progress, and also progress towards the D. Good and bad.
The bad - my W told me she wants to have everything signed and done with by the time I leave for my trip. She had prefaced by saying her lawyer advised her not to sign away her portion of my business (that was requested by the corporate attorney doing our sale) until she finds out if I'm after any of her assets. He said that once I've shown that I'm not after her stuff, it's a go. I understand this, but it also upset me as I dislike the vulnerability.
When she told me we could meet in two weeks and have everything said and done and "finally over with". I admittedly got upset and replied that maybe my attorney would advise me to stretch it out over a few months and then I'd be traveling so who knows when it would be done. This was bratty on my part and was a reaction to feeling like my W was excited about our D being final. My feelings were hurt so I shot that back.
She got upset by my reaction and said, "Everything's still the same, your ego is still in charge." She was right. The rest of our conversation was cordial and even good as I'll go into a bit below. I did call her on the way home to apologize and said, "It hurt my feelings to feel that you just want this over with, it sounded like you just want me out of your life forever so I reacted poorly. I'm sorry for that."
There was a bit of stunned silence on the phone, then a "wow." She told me that it meant a lot for me to own it and apologize. I didn't do it for her reaction but more so because it was a chitty way for me to be in the conversation with her and I don't want to be that way any more. I've made myself a deal to rectify upset as soon as I recognize it and own my part.
The Good - My W said that she doesn't know who I am any more, because I don't share anything with her. When we're together in these swaps she'll tell me all about her life, her struggles, what's working well, and the journey she's on. I've kept my stuff to myself, perhaps as a misguided way of DB'ing. I was under the impression that we were supposed to deflect back to the WAW and also accentuate the positive of our lives. Also, she never asks, so I don't volunteer that kind of information. She has the ability to hurt me more than anyone so I've been a bit guarded with her.
Today she said she wanted to know what was going on with me, what I was feeling, and how I was doing, even if it was hard stuff. I told her. I told her about my struggles this year, about selling my business, missing my nieces, having to deal with so much on my own and more. I talked about the growth from sobriety, the fears I have about next year and more. It felt amazing to be heard and to be heard by the one person I think I've always wanted to have know me.
In response she said this was the first time in years that she's felt connected to me, and that it made her miss the initial connection we had. So that's a good sign.
The D - she told me that she'd considered whether she would reconcile with me, but said that the old M had to get burned to the ground first. That the only way she could see herself doing it is if we got divorced and then created a new relationship.
She said one of her main hesitations about reconciliation was that I had such a large insecurity throughout our M that she was going to leave me, and that insecurity created a lot of issues (I was the NMMNG poster boy). She told me that she didn't think I would ever let that go if we got back together, that since she'd left the M once that I would be even more insecure about it moving forward and that was too much of a risk for her given all the moving forward we'd already done. I know, believe nothing.
I asked her if she ever thought I'd get sober and she laughed and said no way. I said maybe there are ways that I've grown that would surprise us both.
I had no idea that she'd ever thought about us reconciling or why it was a no go. We went from "we'll see how you are in a few months" to "we should get D'ed asap" without a conversation in between.
I've said I won't drag the D out and don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me, so this is no change. We're getting divorced. After almost a year, I'm ok with that. I believe at this point I'm capable of having an amazing relationship in the future. One completely different than my M, which had amazing moments but wasn't amazing overall. How could I have known what I wanted out of relationship when I never even knew myself.
It feels like we get more and more honest with each other and open with each dog swap and she again asked if I would be willing to sit down somewhere other than a public parking lot next time to talk. At this point, I don't see it as a bad thing. She's not asking for anything other than Woofie in the D, and I'm going to be traveling all next year so he's not coming with me. These conversations are rather cathartic for me as I get to share my own experience and get a better understanding of the truth of hers.
From a DB perspective, it doesn't look like I'm going to bust my divorce, but I have more than saved myself so for that this has been a blessing and a half. Overall I'll have to call that a success.
Big love to everyone on the board today. To everyone struggling - keep taking it one day at a time. You never know where this journey is going to take you, it may not take you where you think you want to go, but where you end up may be better than you ever imagined.
Cheers,
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
That was a net positive interaction. I feel good from just reading it. You are a success! and you've planted some powerful seeds in your wife's mind. Perhaps written correspondence with her during your time away could pull her into orbit around planet PigPen. Then when you get back from you journey, mental and physical, maybe she'll put you on her dance card.
Thank you Mutatio, keep striving my friend. Things may feel bleak in our sitchs and they may actually be. I never thought I'd get to a place where I can say, "I don't want my old M back, and I don't want my W back if it means having anything like my old M."
This road is brutal, it's truly a trial by fire and pain. Looking back I have no idea how any of survive it and come out in one piece. But we do. And if we do it right and throw ourselves into the process we truly do come out of it better. Scarred and battered, but better none the less.
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Great stuff PP, I think it all looks very positive. Its obvious she still has an attachment to you. You owning your mistake is a big deal. I don't see an issue with you talking with her and opening up, honest communication is fine. I would just let her lead with the questions as it seems she is interested.
I think I'm at a similar place and understand why you want to just list the positives and not think about them too much. Its hard seeing small signs of things moving in the right direction but still leading to D also. It makes detaching and letting go that much harder knowing things could work out but its just at the end of such a long road that the path through it seems endless and full of pain.
Regardless, you are a success story no matter what happens with W at this point.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Thanks Fogg, appreciate you stopping by. It's the oddest feeling to have my W want to connect with me and learn more about me all the while pushing to get the D over with.
I understand the desire to "burn the old M to the ground", as it was hard for her to be in it. It was a struggle for both of us for a lot of it. So much of that was due to external circumstances but so much of it was also due to our dynamic and so much of it was due to my own personal problems. I've burned them already.
The day after meeting with her is always hard as I go through the conversation in my head and try to argue with all of the points she brought up. Many were valid though so I can only listen to them and learn from them.
I'm curious as to how things will be with us moving forward. She knows I'm leaving for a year but also now wants to connect. She's restated that she doesn't want anything from me in the D and knows I can't take my dog with me traveling so there's no ulterior motive for the connection, at least one I can find.
Yesterday was intriguing to say the least. At one point she even said, "If we did get back together and any of the old patterns reemerged we'd know it immediately, neither of us would be able to stand it for a second." I agreed with her, but in the back of my head though that this is the first time she's ever talked about the possibility of reconciliation or starting a new relationship. That was also followed up with her stating that I had agreed at the previous swap that we could never get back together, thus the reason she was confused as to why I wouldn't want the D finalized myself.
I had agreed that I could never go back to our old M, but didn't think that was the time to ask her to hold off on the D until after next year or that we could possibly build a new relationship.
Confusing, confusing, confusing.
No matter what happens with us now, I will say that it felt good to have her be inquisitive about me. She seemed almost frustrated that she had shared and I had not. I'm a direct guy and have had this said to me in relationships in the past. My reply has always been, "If you want to know something, ask!"
Ask and I'll talk your ear off but I wasn't raised with the idea that I should just up and blab on about my life. Maybe I do keep things to myself more than is healthy in relationships though. My W told me she had only gotten broad strokes about what I've been through this year.
Anyway, let the learning continue.
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Pp, it's definately a step in the right direction from where I am sitting. It's great that she is asking about you. You get the chance to show the new and improved version of pp. Try not to have expectations. That's what has killed me through this.
Glad to hear that you are doing well!
35 3 boys Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
Hi PP, yes I agree it's interesting, and I can see why you'd be playing things over in your mind. From what you post, it certainly seems as though the possibility of reconciliation at some point is somewhere on your W's radar and it's not a completely odious concept.
I'm with you on the logic of - okay, so you don't sound 100% sure that you want us to be D'd in the longer term.....so would it be a good idea to put a hold on the D for a time and see how that goes? I wouldn't go there, but that would be the logic..
I think you being a little mysterious is no bad thing and it does sound as though you've had some convos with her about things you have been up to. TBH, I would keep a cool head, keep on with your plans and keep doing what works for now.
Take care my friend (you are such a nice presence on the board, and so willing to learn and help others - I enjoy reading your posts) xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
What a sweet post to write Sotto, thank you very much. I always value your input on here as well.
I've been digesting everything from our conversation yesterday all day today and seeing if I can glean out any more gems to work on.
One of the areas of my M was frustrating and is continuing to be so here is the idea of "intimacy". At our meeting yesterday my W said that I was still "not showing up" and being real with her, that I was holding back my feelings and not sharing everything - again reminding me that there's no intimacy without it.
She was correct about that from post BD, I don't feel like she has the right have full access to my emotional life now, especially as the catalyst for the vast majority of the upset. Call me old school.
When we were together though I would share things, however, I felt like her gauge on "intimacy" meant that I had to come home and have a full blown meltdown in front of her for it to be counted as "intimate."
Granted, I wasn't being honest about my struggles, but some days I was just happy and would say, "Today was an amazing day, XY and Z happened." I'd say this because I actually was happy.
Her relationship with her mother was one where all they would talk about was the deepest of subjects, nothing ever about the news or world events, just death and spirituality. She also works at drug rehabs and would have interactions all day long with people who were at rock bottom and having breakdowns constantly. I was never sure if this warped her view of the general populous (me), that could actually get through a day and not feel the need for crying.
Maybe I should have broken all DB rules this year and called her EVERY SINGLE DAY that I cried for the last nine straight months. We may be happy reconciled if I had!
Just more to ponder. I think being intimate just means being really honest, no matter if what you're speaking about is going to make you laugh, cry, or get upset. I'm not going to manufacture emotions but have cried a number of times this year speaking to people about subjects that weren't related to this marital explosion.
Back to football...
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Ha, it's like the part when Adam Sandler is sentenced to anger management class and goes to group therapy:
So, Dave...tell us about yourself. Who are you? Well, I am an executive assistant at a major pet products company. I don't want you to tell us what you do. I want you to tell us who you are. All right. I'm a pretty good guy. I like playing tennis on occasion... Also, not your hobbies, Dave, just simple. Tell us who you are. I just...Maybe you could give me an example of what a good answer would be. What did you say? You want Lou to tell you who you are? No, I just... I'm a nice, easygoing man. I might be a little bit indecisive at times. Dave, you're describing your personality. I want to know who you are. -What the hell do you want me to say? I mean, I'm sorry. I just...I want to answer your question. I'm just not doing it right, I guess. I think we're getting a picture, Dave. Let's move on...
PP, it's a joke. Your lack of intimacy is dwarfed by her lack of commitment. Not only doesn't she have the right to know your heart and soul, she certainly doesn't wield the gavel of approval these days. Thanks for getting it out of your system. Don't worry about trying to measure up to her standards. The game is rigged, that can't happen because that would mean she made a mistake, and she can't allow that. Instead whatever she feels you lack in intimacy, make up for it with detachment.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
What a sweet post to write Sotto, thank you very much. I always value your input on here as well.
I've been digesting everything from our conversation yesterday all day today and seeing if I can glean out any more gems to work on.
One of the areas of my M was frustrating and is continuing to be so here is the idea of "intimacy". At our meeting yesterday my W said that I was still "not showing up" and being real with her, that I was holding back my feelings and not sharing everything - again reminding me that there's no intimacy without it.
She was correct about that from post BD, I don't feel like she has the right have full access to my emotional life now, especially as the catalyst for the vast majority of the upset. Call me old school.
When we were together though I would share things, however, I felt like her gauge on "intimacy" meant that I had to come home and have a full blown meltdown in front of her for it to be counted as "intimate."
Granted, I wasn't being honest about my struggles, but some days I was just happy and would say, "Today was an amazing day, XY and Z happened." I'd say this because I actually was happy.
Her relationship with her mother was one where all they would talk about was the deepest of subjects, nothing ever about the news or world events, just death and spirituality. She also works at drug rehabs and would have interactions all day long with people who were at rock bottom and having breakdowns constantly. I was never sure if this warped her view of the general populous (me), that could actually get through a day and not feel the need for crying.
Maybe I should have broken all DB rules this year and called her EVERY SINGLE DAY that I cried for the last nine straight months. We may be happy reconciled if I had!
Just more to ponder. I think being intimate just means being really honest, no matter if what you're speaking about is going to make you laugh, cry, or get upset. I'm not going to manufacture emotions but have cried a number of times this year speaking to people about subjects that weren't related to this marital explosion.
Back to football...
Lovely PP,
I had to laugh at myself reading some of this post about your W working in drug rehab. You are right working in human services where you are constantly accessing or being exposed to other people's emotions on a daily basis normalizes the experience and I found for myself that I expect others to be able to access and described emotions just as easily.
I work in Child Protection and I can go days at time talking about children who are exploring sexually with each other - note some sexualized play is appropriate. So I can talk about body parts by all their names and nick names, and talk about who touched who, what where, for days at time. I have to catch myself with parents, teachers, my family , friends who are not in social services when they look like I am swearing at them, when I talk about these things. Normal in my world, not so normal in others.
My relationship with my mum is very similar to what you describe between W and her mum. My mum's became a catholic at 39, and then when my parents separated and my mother no longer felt welcomed in the church, she became a new agists/spiritualist. My mum and talk about everything, nothing is off limits. My ex's didn't get it either. Family of origin communication styles.
I found with both of my partners, who initially by gender and then by personality were not men who accessed emotions easily. I felt regularly shut down emotionally by their, at times unwillingness or inability or lack of ease to share emotions, or indeed even need, meant that I felt unable to share mine openly. Note - lots of my own FOO issues here too!
I have learned too though PP, that I expected others to convert to my emotional communication style, where feelings reign. This is a selfish expectation. There needs to be a mutual agreement and understanding of how feelings are communicated and how intimacy is defined. Being with someone is about creating and negotiating the nuances of how intimacy gets created. W has a responsibility to meet your way of creating intimacy too. It's not her way or no way. It's our way. Each of you leaning in at times and leaning out.
I get that W is expecting you to show you can create intimacy her way, the long term position is can she create intimacy your way too? What does intimacy look like, feel like to you? What does wife do to allow you to feel intimate?
I agree with Zues on this one. D means the W doesn't get to have the level of intimacy she feels she wants. The Win here is that she wants it.
