In the Arena

[Fogg]

Just wanted to stop in and say hi JellyB. Not much to add but this discussion is interesting. Zues usually does have some good points to make. Hope you all are having a good holiday and weekend.

[JellyB]

Thank you Fogg for dropping by and checking in on me. I guess you may have been sensing that I was feeling a little triggered by seeing a few people moving on. It has taken almost a year to find my voice and comfort here. Not only that it has taken almost a year to get myself out of the depressive hole I was in. I probably don't really need to be here, but there is comfort that comes from regularly visiting and seeing family people and knowing their stories.

It always takes me a long time to attach to people and places but when I do. I find it takes me just as long to unattach.

So thanks Fogg I really do appreciate you stopping by.


JellyBXXX

[mutatio]

We love you JB, please don't go. I enjoy your wisdom and insight. Your energy takes my life to a better place. Normally I take a while to become attached to people also, but I am drawn to you. You are brilliant.

So please stay, have a seat, warm your bones by the DB fire and feel the love.

[PigPen]

Hi Jelly B,

I loved your list of attributes and think they're more than fair as expectations in a relationship. Hold onto them and don't settle for less. I'll add that you may not get all of them all of the time, and some may have to be massaged out of your partner through honest communication.

From what you write here, you know your needs and desires, and you articulate them beautifully. Were I in a relationship with you I would know what they were and what was expected of me, I would have a framework from which to work within. That's really important IMO.

I believe that men want to make you happy, see you succeed, and be a part of you expressing yourself fully. It gives me great joy to think about being a small part of the facilitation of someone living their lives to the highest level. What else could you ask for in any kind of partnership other than the space to be exactly who you are? And then have the extra space to take that beingness to its limit.

Since we've both got travel on the plate, there's also growth that we need to experience. I know what I want out of a partner, and I know what I offer a partner. However the upcoming travel, I believe is where we're both going to encounter entirely new sets of incoming knowledge.

We're both going to be expanded in ways that we can't even imagine sitting at home. We're going to have conversations with people that will blow our minds, see sites that make us rethink our realities, and have our internal framework realigned.

You wrote of ways that you shut down, that you hide, that you become passive aggressive and abandon yourself. In my non professional opinion, your travels will help you with this as well. You're going to have to continue showing up for yourself all along your trip and that will reorganize how you interact with men. You have to be willing to stand with yourself through difficulty before someone else will.

One thing I've found currently with my W is that there are shifts in how I act with her. On two occasions I've found myself going down into my old patterns, but instead of fully going through them, I veer off and into a new healthier pattern almost immediately. I don't know why this happens, it's as out of my control as the old pattern was. Truthfully, I don't usually even catch it till hours later and think "Oh wow, a year ago XYZ would have happened from that conversation, and look at this, it didn't."

None of it was something I specifically worked on either, it's just happening. It's growth, it's having a new internal operating system.

I say that because I'll bet that you've done more growing on here than you give yourself credit for. Perhaps the right test hasn't come along to prove it to you, so you imagine that the Jelly of old is the one running the software, when in fact, the Jelly of new is. You've done the practice drills over and over, but you haven't had a chance to get into a game and show your new moves yet. Yet.

Either way, you're on the path. It's evident by your posts. It's evident by the posts you make on other people's threads. Like someone who has lost weight, you may look in the mirror everyday and see the old you because the loss has been incremental, but someone that hasn't seen you in two months is going to be blown away.

Trips are growth accelerators, they do things for us that staying home never could. They literally take you outside of your comfort zone and therefor force it to expand. Add all of that to the work you've already done and I have complete faith that the next time your needs aren't being met you're going to articulately voice what needs to happen and do so from a place of strength. A place that says, "This is what I need, and I hope you can meet me here. If not, I'll find someone that can. I'm worth this, and so are you."

Please keep posting, I have a feeling that you've got more of a silent fan club on here than you realize.

Big hug,

PP

[JellyB]

• Commitment and faithfulness to the relationship and me
• Loyalty
• Commitment to making time
• Identifying common goals for now and future
• Fun
• Emotional and Physical intimacy
• Acceptance and understanding
• Pulling ones physical and emotional weight.
• Be my cheerleader, my sounding board, my protector
• Love
• Challenge me, support me in areas where I am weak or need to grow.

Everything on this list looks totally reasonable...at least to a degree, most of the time. But I think we need to look at more specifically where you felt betrayed and short changed.

To use my same example, take my sexual desire. If I put "physical intimacy" I don't think anyone would question that being on a list of expectations or desires in a marriage. On the other hand if I put something over the top like "I expect my W to do anything I ask at any time because she belongs to me" that would be an impossible and unhealthy standard. But it could still be on my list as 'physical intimacy'.

So my question to you is...which of those bullets is understated? Which is the one that makes you feel there is something wrong with you? Which is the one that WAS wasn't able to meet? In reflection, was he truly unaware and insensitive, or was he typical of most men and the bar you are setting was out of reach for any man?

PS- I'm not leading here. I'm asking you the same questions I am asking of myself with sexuality. I don't have all the answers yet either.

Thanks for being around JB

Hi Zues

I have been avoiding answering this post for the last couple of days. I feel this might be Pandora’s box. Something I am not sure I want to open. So here goes:

• I have chosen two men who have committed to me with conditions

• Neither of them has wanted marriage and children and while these have been both these I have wanted I have given these up to be with them.

• I reflect back now and appreciate that it is likely that this significant compromise has made me resentful.

• It is likely that there was nothing either of these men could have given or done that was ever going to make up for, compensate, recompense for the sacrifice I felt I made. (please know that if I had had more self-awareness at the time, I really do hope I would have made an alternative decision) .

• I feel like I score carded them at every chance I had.

• So I guess I never felt that they could ever be as committed as I was because they wouldn’t give me what I wanted. I guess I felt that they couldn’t possibly love me if they weren’t willing to give me what I wanted.

• So I guess I continually questioned their love and commitment to me. They were always going to fall short.

• I feel that I was constantly feeling wrong about wanting those things with the men I adored.

• I felt overly sentimental and sensitive and emotional for wanting these things and both men told me so.

• I continually looked for other means of creating commitment and a sense of family, but ultimately if was never enough.

• I continually denied this part of myself and I was so alone in dealing with the loss I felt. The loss that I would never be a mother or a wife. I grieved for this alone. It was something that I could share, as I didn’t want to make either of them feel guilty for choices that I had made in being with them. So I lived in denial, and I rationalised myself into a position where I could cope with my decision.

• So I never felt like either of them was pulling their emotional weight. I was left to hold this on my own.


• I guess in doing so I covered a lot of who I am really. Made myself small and living within the limits of their lives, their wants and desires.

• So I guess I am asking for emotional intimacy but can’t do it myself. I don’t trust men to hold my emotional needs, and cut them off from even trying.

• My therapist says that I never had an adult in my life that was available to emotionally reassure me in times of emotional overwhelm, and that I learned to shut down how I felt and learned not to ask for any needs to be met, because it meant not experiencing the on-going pain of 1. The emotional need I had and 2. The Disappointment of not having that need met. My therapist says that to compensate by ensuring others needs are met.

• I guess I have an expectation then that the men in my life know my pattern to put myself last and not be able to adequately express what I need, and for them to create space and time for me do so . Because I don’t know how to do it for myself.

• I’m not one to openly disclose how I’m feeling or experiencing anything unless other’s directly ask me to disclose. I’m not one to come home at the end of the day and blather on about my day and what happened and how that affected me. But given me some one on one time with no pressure and it’s just about me and us and I am asked, I can easily disclose. But likely if I haven’t been able to unload for a long time, it will become messy and sad and intense.

• Thus my belief that the men in my life are scared by my intensity, and sensitivity and vulnerability. Because most of the time I am this really quietly, strong independently minded, sweet girl who asks for nothing.

• The men in my life are so surprised when I am the opposite, about my stuff usually. The stuff that makes me feel weak, and imperfect and unlovable.

• The physical intimacy and sex is an interesting one for me Zues. Apparently I have very high expectations related to the regularity of physical intimacy. Apparently I have a very high libido. Personally I don’t think this is accurate. I feel that I am fairly typical in my sex drive.

• It has however caused tensions in my relationships. I think because it is the one area I feel safe enough to express my need and want for it. I guess I have a belief that most men would love being with a woman who enjoys sex and physical intimacy in all the guises it comes in. To be rejected sexually has been really difficult. I haven’t managed the rejection well. I gave up initiating and pursuing physical intimacy, sexual intimacy because it made me feel so bad about myself. I felt controlled by their willingness or unwillingness to have sex. I felt resentful that this was the one need I could verbally and physically express and I was rejected. More score keeping on behalf about all things I had compromised in other aspects of our life and this was the one thing I thought all men would give willingly and I was like “WTF”.
Zues the above is a stream of consciousness (I haven’t reread it so if it doesn’t make sense I am sorry) . I can’t connect too rationally or emotionally to what I written because in some ways it scares me to death about what any of it means. Some of above I have unpacked in therapy and likely needs a good digging around in and others have some to light as I have been writing.

I guess at the end of the day I really am just looking for someone who will accept all that nuttiest up there , and go oh it’s kinda cool she is nutty in that way, because she is incredibly sweet, kind, get met and loves the hell out of me.


Heart on my sleeve

JellybXXX

[Zues126]

Thanks for sharing JB. I know this is hard. Many similarities so I can get where you're coming from.

A lot to absorb, I want to reread this in a bit. But for now I just feel really sad for your loss. The loss of your R, the loss of your opportunity to have the family that you wanted.

All the fears of lack of commitment only to find that you had a reason to fear. You can meet someone 99% of the way but you can't force them to go the last 1%.

Well JB, this much I know...if by being accepted as you are by a man you mean that you'll never feel misunderstood, neglected, overlooked, or any of that...probably not possible. I think there will be cycles, and any man in your life will step on your toes. However if by being accepted you mean a man that will stay with you forever, and make it a priority to understand you more each year, so those wounds are inflected less and less, and you are allowed to connect more and more...that JB I do believe is in your future.

More to come, just wanted to let you know I'm reading and absorbing. We are lucky to have you lead in sharing so openly.

PS- what a great community. I post on a couple of pool and poker forums...they have like a million mods and can't break up all of the hate. This forum is so rare. Thanks to all!

[Zues126]

I'm really still feeling the pain of the loss JB. I will admit I had always thought you had it easier in that you didn't have to co-parent with your ex, that you could make a clean start with relatively little 'baggage' compared to us. I forget at times that my children aren't baggage, they are my family, and they are more precious to me than anything. The biggest pain I've encountered is having to drop them off and not see them for days at a time. I am sorry I didn't realize more clearly how difficult it must be to not have a family of your own at all at this time, and for that window to be behind you. All the more betrayal at the man that took your soul as sacrifice and then reneged on the commitment.

I have nothing to compare to that. This doesn't come close, it's just the only thing I can think of. I could've been a world champion pool player. Traveled around the world. Studying the game. Reading. Playing tournaments. Seeing new cities. Etc. I gave that up to be with my W. Beyond that- I didn't want to start a family at that point. She did. She wanted to be a SAHM. I worked my tail off to make that happen. All of it. After all of it she left. Once she had my sperm and money locked up that was all of me that was needed, chuck the rest out like an old piece of fruit. She kept me around just long enough to get the youngest into preschool. How convenient.

The point though is that whether they appreciated the gift or not, you gave it, and it was a loving and generous gift. Maybe too much to give to any partner, but then again maybe not. Had your relationship worked out and blossomed into something wonderful, something of stories, maybe you would've felt more meaning in the sacrifice. In that case it would've been a good choice. Well, then it was, because you can't control him, and all you can do is give the opportunity for something you believed you were building.

I'm sure you've thought about this a million times more than me. Just feeling your loss tonight like it's my own and going through these thoughts for the first time.

[JellyB]

We love you JB, please don't go. I enjoy your wisdom and insight. Your energy takes my life to a better place. Normally I take a while to become attached to people also, but I am drawn to you. You are brilliant.

So please stay, have a seat, warm your bones by the DB fire and feel the love.

Oh Mutatio

What a lovely post.

I don't think it is my time to leave this forum. I appreciate that people are very patient with me here, because I post in fits and starts, because of the time I need to process information. I get incrediably frustrated with myself that I don't give enough back to others given the huge amount of support and love I have received. But I am kinder to myself than in the past and I let my heart guide where I post.

Each boarder brings their unique perspective. I'm nutty and and too touchy feely. Get to the depression and co-dependancy stuff is where I feel the most comfortable. I try really hard not to put my social work hat on here because being here is not about working on or therapising people's situations. Its about being fully present to support other's in their discomfort and pain and in the times that they have joy and success. We are equals here.

I appreciate you kind words about the connection. I feel you are a more evolved soul that either you and your wife fully acknowledge. But it is coming.

Even if I don't post, don't think for a minute that I am not checking in on you. I tend to post only when I feel I have something to offer. But I am here, walking your path.

Much love Mutatio.

JellyBXXX

[u-turn]

Hey Jelly, just reading and catching up tonight after another break from the forum. You never cease to amaze me at how you can put your feelings into words. How you can pinpoint a feeling you had and the time you had it. I truly think that self-awareness is a gift that I don't have and probably my STBXW never had either. I'm sure we would all benefit from such self-awareness.

Now to be able to be open with that awareness and to find and be with the person that appreciates and uses that openness to learn and grow. That sounds perfect.

As I think about it, when I hear the "she gave up so much to be with him" or the other way around, it seems that there's a bitter ingredient in the pie. I'm sorry that is how it played out for you - that truly sounds painful.

All of this really makes me question myself and my situation. When I really cannot explain what happened and what went wrong. I cannot describe the why and what pushed her out the door - were any of her feelings like yours? (I guess I may never know).

Just checking in and offering absolutely nothing but sending you a big hug.

take care (cold chicago - Monday 12:00 am)
u-turn

[JellyB]

Ahhhh U!!!

The thing I love about you, is that most of the time I don't feel like I have to say too much about how I feel. You kinda get me anyway. You just kinda know.

And please don't judge your wife by my nutty headspace and heartspace. I'm an exception to the woman rule. I have learned to embrace my crazy. I an however take solace in the fact that only my crazy hurts me. I don't tend to involve others in it. Lol

But I am heading over to your thread to see where things are at for you!

Thanks for posting Buddy. I miss you when you aren't around.

Arohanui

NZ Monday 7.39pm humid 21 degrees celius.