Pho's thread- solving problems

[gonegrl]

I didn't drink last night, H was not drinking and this is the first night in at least a year I can remember that he wasn't drinking, so I decided not to be a bad influence. Had an ok night. Woke up this morning with a very bad realization. The part of H's talk that I validated, the part that upset me, but I just listened to. Well, its a bad one. I am hoping that this is just the "ice breaker" to this topic and with love and patience and therapy we can overcome it, but the way it is now it would be a deal breaker for me.

Basically he said that he doesn't believe me or my version of events, thinks I am lying. About his parents. For the last 10 months he has barely said a word to me and has been taking in long rants and rambling conversations about me from his parents.

So is this him doubting my perspective, and asking me to be more clear, or less emotional in our discussions so that he "trusts" what I am saying better, or is this his parents have finally gotten to him and have convinced him that I have been wrong about every disagreement we've had over the last 20 years? I have overheard some of their conversations so that is what I am afraid of. His mother will say one thing to my face and then literally one minute later deny it and this has been going on forever. It is a mix of stupid things and very hurtful things.

I cannot stay with someone who thinks I am lying. And I don't want to rehash all of the arguments to "prove" my point. I just want to be trusted, and I do truly want to, and have, let go of all of the "small" things- even things that aren't so small- for the sake of family unity, but I can not continue to be abused and have H believe that I am lying about it. I can not be "in love" with someone who thinks I am lying (for what reason would I lie?) He is accusing me of doing what his mother is actually doing. I believe its because I stopped engaging in any of it with her, my silence is being taken for guilt. Or rather, her continued attacks against me have gone undefended and he "finally sees the truth" because I stopped talking. But I purposely decided to take myself out of the middle of it to stop the cycle. I was taking the high road. But now I am the guilty one.

OK, deep breaths. This was just the ice breaker to the topic. We will get to a better place. Right?

[Dawgs]

Hi Pho! Let me say that you are doing awesome!

ust had MC. It was like the therapist had been reading my thread today. He asked H to open up and talk about his feelings. H surprisingly did so in a calm manner without any spew. I listened, I validated. The counselor rephrased a couple of things for me. H spoke more, I validated more. The counselor correctly pointed out that 7-8 months ago I would have "validated" but then jumped in with my interpretation of events. He commented that 2x tonight he asked me to "take the floor" and I deferred and went back to validating. I told him that to me listening and understanding H right now was more important than expressing my perspective. That I have come to the conclusion that yes, my perspective is important, but not nearly as important as the R, and that at least half of what I thought was worth expressing before was really not.

I love this! Thank you for telling this - its like a new perspective for me that helps me out when nothing else was working for me. In a way, it gives me a new tactic and hope.

I don't have the need to "fight" anymore, I feel a need to listen. I get it. I regret not "getting it" sooner. I regret that I hurt H. H said some things, some of it I completely understood, some of it upset me and I truly don't agree with. But I just validated. I can do this. Oh! Also at some point the MC said to me that I did a great job not reacting and I said , "Oh just wait until we get home, I will let him have it then." I laughed, the counselor laughed, H looked nervous. He does not get my sense of humor! Maybe I shouldn't joke with him. Dammit, that is my personality.

I also don't have the need to fight. We have MC today and I am scared. Really scared. But I don't need to fight. Just listen and validate. I should have been doing this for so long. But, hopefully it isn't too late. Thank you again!

OK, deep breaths. This was just the ice breaker to the topic. We will get to a better place. Right?

Yes we will, Pho. In fact you are well on your way whether you realize it or not.

[gonegrl]

Thanks Spiff, my anxiety is so high right now and I see no way out except to leave him. How can I be with someone who thinks I am a liar? How can this possibly work?

I am being set up by the IL's and H is buying every word of it. I am the scapegoat for everything.

[Dawgs]

Hi Pho! Keep your chin up!

my anxiety is so high right now and I see no way out except to leave him. How can I be with someone who thinks I am a liar? How can this possibly work?

I understand what you are saying. I couldn't do it, either. Maybe digging deeper will find a reason for this behavior. Maybe it is part of his issues and really isn't directed at you. Perception plays a much bigger role than we think, I am living proof.

I am being set up by the IL's and H is buying every word of it. I am the scapegoat for everything.

That is very unfortunate. Is it more than just the MIL who is doing this? Until your H realizes this, you may be literally just banging your head on the wall. I know the feeling. Look at my relationship with my SIL - remember how the two went through that hell of a childhood together and their bond is inseparable. Also, the SIL is very, very manipulative towards my W and knows how to push her buttons. That's one of main things caused the W to even consider divorce (keep in mind that the SIL is also going through a divorce and IS telling the W that the grass is greener).

I just don't know how to navigate the family bond without it seeming like you are attacking the MIL (even though she deserves it). If someone can tell me how to do that, I would greatly appreciate it! Maybe there isn't you can do about that but what you are doing for your H? Maybe you need to validate (as you said, without agreeing or the like)? Just throwing ideas out there.

But, I agree, family takes sides and make us the scapegoat even when they think they are doing what's best for our spouses.

[mutatio]

"How can I be with someone who thinks I am a liar?"
"How can this possibly work?"

It will not work if this is his final position. I do not think this will be the hill he'll lay down his life defending. He is believing a tale spun by his mother. She is the puppet master. Be strong pho

[gonegrl]

Thank you Spiff and Mutatio. As a side note, before I found this board I cannot tell you the last time I had a meaningful and personal conversation with a man. Including my H, which is sad. Is that strange? I talk to my friend's husbands, my brothers, my cousins, my son's teachers and the Dads at the school, but never anything personal. I am guessing that is a good thing, because that would be the way an emotional affair starts. But it is really, really nice to have the male perspective and to have guy "friends." Thank you for that.

I will continue to stay pleasant and keep a healthy distance from the IL's. It is mostly MIL who is the source of the drama, but FIL gets caught up in it and then he agrees with MIL and speaks "for her." He also tries to be "helpful" , such as telling me H's affair was "just" romantic love, but what he has with me is "committed love". He also said "If it were me, I would have F@@cked her by now." Just what you want to hear about your H. For months I after BD I would get a weekly call from MIL rehashing our MC, asking me to "explain" myself for things I said in there, challenging me on my "jealous and controlling ways" and defending H's EA. This is just stuff his parent's shouldn't have even known about.

My approach since BD has been to keep my mouth shut, to not involve H in any conflict between me and the IL's and to just let everything slide. It has been working for me, but he is still hearing it from their side. What he really needs to do is remove himself from the equation and let each person handle their own issues.

I asked him in September to stop discussing me and our marriage with his parents and he reluctantly agreed. Maybe that 2 month break (if he actually did stop) got him to the point where he felt like he could voice his concerns. Maybe if he continues to not "take on" their perspective about me, and I continue to not engage in the IL dynamic, maybe he will form his own perspective. I don't expect that he will 100% agree with me.

I am thinking, instead of feeling hopeless (which I do right now) that there are things H can provide for me that will save the M if he chooses to.....

1- I need the "safety" of knowing that H is NOT discussing me with his family and rehashing incidents with them. I cannot imagine calling my family to discuss H's behavior or entertaining their criticisms of him, I just can't fathom doing that, even now.
2- That H does not believe I am somebody who spent years victimizing an innocent woman. So I need to not be blamed for the past. I need him to either let it go, accept that the truth is complicated and there was some fault all around, or accept that it was all his mom (LOL). I don't need for him to agree with me but I do need to know he doesn't think I am a destructive abusive person and that I systematically and intentionally went about destroying his mother's life.
3- to set reasonable boundaries with IL's moving forward.

I think if H was to get involved with ANY woman in the future, me, his EA, or someone new, the woman would expect these basic things, am I right? I don't think I am asking for very much. And I promise I am "out" of the IL drama, no longer a participant in any way. The only problem will be if they drag my children into it, that will be a tough one for me and I am working on building my children's resiliency and emotional awareness so that they will be strong enough to deal with that, or anything else that comes there way.

So there is hope, but it will be up to H. I am in no rush to push him, but I will need those things.

Is my thinking ok?

[asitis]

That's a rough thing to hear from your H. Validate but don't confirm. "That must be really difficult for you. I'm sorry you feel that way." And, whatever you do, don't defend yourself or try to correct him. That will just cause him to fix that notion deeper. He will have to fight this battle himself. You are doing everything you can.

You are right to wonder if you can go on with someone who doesn't believe you. Again, don't try to be believed, as much as you want to and as painfully frustrating it is to be unfairly judged - especially by people who have a number of problems and things to answer for regarding the damage they are causing your family. Just detach from it all. The ILs, your H, the comments. It is not your problem. You move ahead w/ your & your kids' life while H figures out if he wants or is able to deal with his internal and familiar problems. That at least protects you from getting drawn into their little world of dysfunctional anger.

Your boundaries w/ your ILs are important. The key one is to not let your MIL mistreat you or disrespect you in your home, in front of the kids, or even if it is just the two of you. You can't do much about what she says when you aren't there, so don't worry about it. Another boundary is to ask H not to pass on what MIL says about her, and especially if the kids are around. Tell him that she feels the way she feels, but this is her problem and she needs to deal with it herself.

Whatever you do, unless there some obvious issue of harm to the kids, do not get between the kids & their grandparents. You are the only adult in the family system you operate in. Take pride in that, and do what is best for everyone, even if some of them don't really deserve good treatment from you. In the long run, the only thing you control is your words & actions, and treating those who don't reciprocate well is for your sake, not theirs.

You've got some stamina, and you are doing great DBing. You just may not have enough on the other side to work with. I'm glad you are facing that reality, as that takes a lot of courage.

And, you need men & women in your life that you can have a deep meaningful conversation with IRL. If you have women friends already, great. But having both more men & women in your social circle with whom you can have these, sounds like something important to you and worth thinking about how you will move toward that goal, regardless of whether or not your M turns around. You know from this board that we're out there. You don't have to date or have affairs to have these kinds of friendships. There of course will be dangers. I suspect you would really feel drawn to someone like this right now - I'd take a wild guess that even though you don't know what any of us look like - you've found at least some of us attractive, or at least wondered... It is normal, btw, and healthy. It's a sign that you care for yourself and want something good for yourself. It is just that right now, that might draw you in like the oasis does to the thirsty traveler.

Hang in there. You H & ILs sound like they are an incredible test of human patience. I'm amazed you have been able to respond to them as well as you can.

[gonegrl]

Thank you Asitis! You have a really good way of getting to the heart of the issue and making me feel supported and more focused. You are going to be a great counselor.

And of course I've wondered about a few of you guys on this board, I picture you as a Kevin Bacon look alike for some reason. All of the male posters here are very handsome in my mind and have a tendency to post shirtless and dripping wet from the shower, or possibly a rainstorm. Am I close?

I picture the women as pretty cute too, although they are fully clothed.

[Dawgs]

Hi Pho!

As a side note, before I found this board I cannot tell you the last time I had a meaningful and personal conversation with a man. Including my H, which is sad. Is that strange? I talk to my friend's husbands, my brothers, my cousins, my son's teachers and the Dads at the school, but never anything personal. I am guessing that is a good thing, because that would be the way an emotional affair starts. But it is really, really nice to have the male perspective and to have guy "friends." Thank you for that.

First, no need to thank us for that. We are all in this ship together. I must add that without your words I just don't know.

My approach since BD has been to keep my mouth shut, to not involve H in any conflict between me and the IL's and to just let everything slide. It has been working for me, but he is still hearing it from their side. What he really needs to do is remove himself from the equation and let each person handle their own issues.

Something is not quite right with him depending so much on his family. Until he cuts those strings, then I am afraid it won't change, but I may be wrong. Seems like I have been wrong a lot lately.

I am thinking, instead of feeling hopeless (which I do right now) that there are things H can provide for me that will save the M if he chooses to.....

Interesting and reasonable thought. However, the question is how does that happen? How do you get him to do that without pushing him over the wall, so to speak?


Your thinking is spot on, Pho!

[asitis]

No Kevin Bacon, but I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone...