I believe that going on a tirade twice in a decade isn't ideal, but it isn't that unusual. I think OW is right. He is probably a gentle man, one who's needs weren't being met, one who was pushed to his breaking point. Instead of walking away he tried to communicate his pain. When he couldn't take it anymore and he tried screaming, trying to have his voice heard.
If I knew that I could reinstate my M but that my spouse hadn't changed and they would go on 5 more tirades in the remainder of our years together, I wouldn't walk. Even if that spouse didn't take ownership or change. Just because no one is perfect.
If I knew that I had contributed to the hardship, and that my H felt like a dog that was caged, starved, and beaten, and that he was actually a good animal mistreated until he acted like a bad animal, I would learn to treat him better to see if MY change could result in HIM changing, without HIM having to do anything. And I wouldn't label something as abuse that was responding to an environment I contributed to.
I believe in remaining committed to the M because you vowed to, because that's what M is about. Not dependent on how you feel about it, or what's in it for you. But when you remain committed to serving your partner, and find ways to make yourself better, lo and behold there may be a reward for you as well.
I think all this talk of him needing to change before you could continue an M with him is new age mumbo jumbo that is the reason why no one is M anymore.
The entire DB principle is changing the dynamic by changing yourself, not working on yourself a little and then demanding that your partner does the same to meet your new and improved standards. That's just more control, expectations, and criticism.
Treat him like he's good enough, take care of him, hear him, honor him, accept him, respect him, meet his basic needs, and you won't have to worry about what happens next time he feels mistreated/neglected/disrespected, because he won't. Oh, and if you truly do this my guess is that he'll grow with time anyway, particularly if you LEAD. In which case it would be tragic to throw away a lifelong partnership because of a snapshot in time anyway.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
And I wouldn't label something as abuse that was responding to an environment I contributed to.
Wait a minute, Zues. Yes, Girlonfr contributed to the down fall of her M. Maybe her H was frustrated, didn't feel heard. Regrettable for sure, and something for her to work on. But did she cause a two hour tantrum that left a child cowering in terror? No. She did not. There is no excuse for that behavior, whatsoever. What if H had actually hit her? What if he hit the child? What if he smashed the car with a bat, set the house on fire, put a rock through the window, took a rifle into the mall? All these things are out of bounds, and just because Girlonfr contributed to the argument, contributed to the frustration, contributed to the feeling of not being heard doesn't justify his actions. This wasn't a two minute outburst, this was a two hour assault. There has to be a line somewhere, Zues. I'm sincerely asking what's your line? For me, her H crossed it. Clearly not for you, and that's fine. Where's your line? I really want to know, because this is fascinating to me.
I have to agree with the girls here. The tirades scare women. They scare kids. They aren't something that people should become normalized or accustomed to. They are immature at best. And they produce an undercurrent of instability and tension in every relationship.
The guy doing it feels better afterword. It's a release. But it's not a healthy one. The wife and kids only feel fear from the person they should always trust to protect them.
A man should be a man and always protect, speak firmly but softly, and be strong but gentle in all things.
Tirades scare kids. Divorce tears apart their family unilateral for the rest of their lives. Besides, if this is really about the kids what's the alternative? Take them away from the dad 100% of the time? Good luck getting that through the courts based on this. My L made it clear to me that to take a child away from their parent things have to be pretty iron clad dangerous. So then what, they are with their dad 50% of the time anyway. The only difference is he's with another woman, not their mom, who won't feel as protective towards the kids.
Again, I promise my dad was 5 times more aggressive and angry than this man. I PROMISE. We had a great relationship throughout my childhood and have an even closer one now. I don't know what my relationship would be with my mother if she asked him to leave over the things he did, and as I've said, it was far further the line. I mean recurring outbursts, moments when you'd be afraid something would escalate him, occasional spanking spontaneously and in anger, wild eyes, etc. To me that was trivial, yes, even as a kid. I knew he loved me. It was normal. I never was hurt where I had bruises, couldn't walk, or really ever felt more than a small stinging on my backside for a few seconds. And you know what? I don't spank my kids, but I do think this is getting way too PC and way to uptight. If you want to leave a good guy because he's not new aged enough, go right ahead. If we apply this same standard to every category no man could live up and women would be walking out of marriages at record levels and the D rate would be ridiculous. Oh wait, that's exactly what's going on.
Yes, I'm in the suck it up and make it work camp. Sunny, I would leave my M if I was scared for my physical safety. To clarify, this would mean that I think W is going to poison me, or she hit me with something BEYOND an open hand to the face or a rough push (for example if she took a pool cue and literally hit me with it repeatedly, or started throwing those pool balls at me which hurt!). Next would be adultery. I'm talking ongoing, I love him, he's the man I want in my life, I want you to leave...or "why can't I accept that I love you both and that I want you both in my life". Not ok.
Beyond that I don't remember anything in the marriage vows that detailed the hundreds of offences that we shouldn't have to put up with that would allow me to terminate our family and lifelong partnership if I'm no longer feeling loved. Yes, that means I'd stay in a marriage where I felt misunderstood, unappreciated, neglected, lonely, and even a bit 'emotionally abused'. Oh, and even if I never had sex for years. In fact, I DID. And the funny thing is maybe if people took divorce off the table as an option and realized the choices were to be M and unhappy or M and happy, maybe more people would choose to be M and happy. It would start to their self growth, which would improve the dynamics of the M, and maybe even inspire change in their partner, who will absolutely grow with time anyway.
But it's not just me. I had dinner with a good friend who is an avid Jehovah's Witness. He tells me there are three times in their religion when it's ok to get divorced: 1) Physical violence, 2) Adultery (at the betrayed spouses discretion), 3) financial protection (to make sure you can pass something to your children if your spouse is an addicted gambler). However you WEREN'T allowed to REMARRY unless your spouse had an actual affair while married to you. In the other cases you were expected to remain married in spirit, just not legally in name.
I talked to him about this situation, he was surprised as well as I was, he told me that his parents were fighting aggressive every week for a couple of years, then it smoothed out, and everything's been fine since. But he said it was nearly fist fighting once a week. Is this ideal? No. But he's glad he grew up with both parents, has a good relationship with both, and they are now happily married and have a long history together. Wow.
As shocked as you all are with what I'm saying, I'm equally shocked that on a forum dedicated to saving marriages that so many people are so quick to justify walking away. I get it. All of our marriages stank. That's the same reason they left. Either all of our WAS's were right because they could all say the same thing, or we need to walk the walk.
I could name so many LBS's that people think well of. Maybe even me before I wrote all of this. People think I'll be a good H someday. Well, I'm the same guy that my STBX kicked to the curb. I pressured her to do things sexually that she didn't want to do. I was critical of her. So she left. I would never dare say I am proud of those things, and I am grateful that I have grown a bit. But anyone that wants to say that she was right to destroy my family, well, no need to visit my thread and post. And frankly I think that is worse than what this man has done.
In closing, Marriage is a life long commitment that isn't to be ended. Once you make it conditional upon self determined standards in dozens of different categories such as porn use, alcohol use, emotional neglect, sex frequency, tone of voice, etc, you don't have a M, you have a fling that will last until our humanity is revealed because no one will measure up. Again, tell me a time when it's ok to throw a baby in a dumpster and I'll tell you when I feel it's ok to get divorced. Y'all don't have to feel it's that important, clearly if I want company I have to do some time travelling.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues, I too am old school. My dad was very soft-spoken. But I had years of coaches who whipped my ass into shape as quickly and as roughly as they had to to get me to produce the results they wanted. Personally, I loved it and always thrive in that environment, and I don't have a problem being tough on young men.
I don't think anyone's saying if things get a little bumpy then divorce is ok. But a man who acts in a threatening and unpredictable, destabilizing manner towards his wife and infant child also has to have some boundaries set for him since he is unwilling or not strong enough to set them for himself.
In such cases, I think separating with the W telling the H that she loves him and is not leaving him, but will not take any risk to be with him until he puts some better tools in his toolbox and demonstrates that he will use them.
Zues, I too am old school. My dad was very soft-spoken. But I had years of coaches who whipped my ass into shape as quickly and as roughly as they had to to get me to produce the results they wanted. Personally, I loved it and always thrive in that environment, and I don't have a problem being tough on young men.
I don't think anyone's saying if things get a little bumpy then divorce is ok. But a man who acts in a threatening and unpredictable, destabilizing manner towards his wife and infant child also has to have some boundaries set for him since he is unwilling or not strong enough to set them for himself.
In such cases, I think separating with the W telling the H that she loves him and is not leaving him, but will not take any risk to be with him until he puts some better tools in his toolbox and demonstrates that he will use them.
Very well spoken, and I don't take issue with much of this. Ask Sunny, I tend to be very polarized.
The question is "what if the man never changes?" Does that separation become a divorce at that point?
I always ask what I would do if the other person never changed. Because we can't control them. Again, we all have our own interpretation of what 'destabilizing' means. And we all place a value on marriage. I guess I just feel divorce is more destabilizing than an unstable H.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I'm equally shocked that on a forum dedicated to saving marriages that so many people are so quick to justify walking away. I get it. All of our marriages stank. That's the same reason they left. Either all of our WAS's were right because they could all say the same thing, or we need to walk the walk.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
But anyone that wants to say that she was right to destroy my family, well, no need to visit my thread and post.
There is no excuse for what the WAW does however they do what they FEEL needs to be done. Kind of like a wounded animal thrashing around destroying everything in sight. Petting this animal won't make it heal, or stop its destruction. It needs to go off and be on its own and heal with no other distractions. They are in fight or flight mode and nothing we do, can stop it. We can only stay out of the way and be the best parents possible. How long will that take? Who knows? So the best thing we can do for our children is to show them by our actions that we are strong and able to continue to live our life to the fullest.
I do think the LBS has the most power in all of this.
They get the final decision about all that happens. If you have not yet gotten the final decision yet then the final decision has not yet been made.
The old M has ended and good riddance! There is no way to go but onwards. I will not keep looking backwards; I will look forward.
Moving on, there is no reason to ever to want to R with XH if the dynamics of the old M do not change. And I will know that he is ready to R if he: -takes responsibility for his outbursts and anger issues -willingly continues with the C for anger management beyond what is mandated -will offer to break off all contact with the OW
In the meantime, I will continue with GAL and move on with my life. I will go dim and detach; not possible for a total NC with kid.
You can call me Dory/ Grl.
As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"
It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
