Am not sure where I belong now

[Sotto]

Girlonf, I'm sorry for what you have experienced in your M. I must admit, my question would be similar to that from Sunny B. Why would you want to return to an abusive relationship? My advice would be that you think long and hard about whether that would be what YOU want - and whether it is the best thing for the whole family - not whether he hopes to reconcile.

Without reading back, have you read DR or DB yet? MWD talks about saving your M if at all possible - unless it is highly dysfunctional or there has been abuse. What do you think would be different if you guys did give things another try? Would it only be a matter of time before your child is cowering behind the door again? I would say yes unless your partner has some kind of epiphany.

Have you read the thread on abuse on this forum? I'm lucky enough never to have experienced abuse in my R, but I have learned a little about it from what posters like Vanilla and Zelda have posted. I would recommend you read that thread anyway. You may also want to look at codependency, which seems to be a theme in abusive or addictive situations. Many posters recommend the codependent no more book.

Take care and keep posting xx

[Zues126]

And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.

Girlonf, this concerns me a great deal. I probably would be asking for a restraining order instead of trying to reconcile. You say that outburst #2, was far more violent than outburst #1. What happens with #3? Please be very careful, for the sake of yourself, and most importantly, for the sake of your child. Your child's safety is more important than your M. Your H has a lot of work to do, and it has nothing to do with you. So continue with your path, fix what needs to be fixed in you, but realize that you can't fix your H, he has to do that.

Sunny, if physical violence is a threat than I absolutely agree. Is it?

I'm not asking if he raised his voice.
I'm not asking if he threw a remote control in anger.
Has he ever hit you or your child?
Not pushed away if you were pushed away if you were pursuing him, not accidental contact in a rowdy situation...but actual intentionally taking action intended to deliver physical harm?

I PROMISE my STBX has said the same thing. I probably had 3 angry outbursts in 10 years of M. STBX claims to have 'video footage' of me and S11 that would 'cost me the kids forever that she hopes not to use'. I PROMISE there is nothing the courts could ever see that would take the kids away. It is absolutely absurd. I NEVER hit her. I think I broke a remote control once. But while I'm a long ways from a Buddhist monk, I'm a long way from an dangerous person.

I'm not saying "oh, it's ok, it's no big deal". No, my STBX was scared. She said she had an angry dad that she was scared of and had PTSD, and was afraid of me during these exchanges. Of course I don't feel good about that, and recognize I need to do everything possible to eliminate this. On my side being told this was basically like being called an abusive monster, about the worst thing you can call a guy. I tried managing this, but these days it seems that isn't good enough. Anything less than perfection is reason to cut bait.

I guess I just think about Good Will Hunting homes, you know, drunk dad, belt/wrench, knocking mom around. And women would STAY in those marriages. I agree, not healthy, and I'm glad the message is being passed not to put up with that. But from this guy's perspective the needle has swung so far I know I could never measure up. If I can't lose my cool every 3 years then I'd rather be single for life than labeled abusive.

Sunny, I'm not disagreeing with you either, just clarifying the situation. And maybe I am abusive and I'm defending stuff that's worthy of the death penalty. I guess the forum will light up and let me know that...

[Zues126]

Also- I will be following this thread. This dynamic was very similar to my marriage. In fact, it would probably be a good idea for you to read my first few threads from the beginning. It might be what your H would have typed had he been here.

Talk soon and hang in.

[Azzork]

I admit that I am rather impatient and can come across as critical and curt, ironically and especially to the ones nearest and dearest to me. I see it as my duty to help them with their problems but I guess I have to realise that not everyone wants me to save them or point out what they could have done better.

This is what I am interested in.

No matter what happens, you contributed some to the downfall of your marriage. It sounds like you might be walking down a path of self-discovery here. How are you going to take the valuable information you learned through this to make yourself a better version of you for your next relationship, regardless of who it is with?

[Zues126]

I will add I've had a better R with my kids than ever. YET- 9 months ago I lost my temper. S and D were fighting, and I lost my cool. Son locked himself in the bedroom. I forced the door open with my shoulder. He was scared. I was yelling.

I cooled down quickly. We talked through it. I acknowledged that I was human and that while this wasn't the way I should act, I couldn't promise never to do it again. But I DID promise that I would never hurt him. We talked about it. He has his own challenges.

And you know what? We have a great R. He loves me, I love him, we can get upset now and then and it's ok.

And you know what else? My D was 10 times more angry than I was. He didn't beat me, but he did believe in spanking, and did that in a rage a few times. I WAS scared of my dad - ***WHEN HE WAS MAD***. But I loved him, never thought anything of it, and you know what? I have a GREAT relationship with him.

To me this reaction is just a sign that M isn't possible anymore. Everyone deserves better.

[tl2]

I feel like I can chime in here because the thing that I did to contribute to our marriage's deterioration in the ever-more-distant past was explosive anger/losing my temper.

I have to agree that regardless of the situation, at minimum physical separation was very necessary on your part and to that extent I commend you for doing that.

I want to make it clear that I was never physically violent and my loss of temper never lasted for hours, just a few minutes...which can seem like hours to the person on the receiving end, I know.

What happened was she would do disrespectful things or hurtful things, I would keep quiet about it and take it for as long as I could, and eventually I would pop, yell and argue. I never saw myself as being intimidating or threatening. I only saw myself as being hurt and expressing my anger at the source.

It took me a long time to change that. But once I fully understood what I was doing and how it came across, I made huge strides and can happily say that despite some very intense hurt she's directed my way in the recent past, I have always kept my cool.

The problem here is that your H is either emotionally immature (this was me) or has a more serious issue. I am by nature an introvert and an analytical thinker. Whenever I have experienced strong emotions or emotional responses to outside events or people in my life, I never knew how to think about, deal with, or control my emotions if they were strong enough. Being an introvert, it's not that I don't want to talk about it, it just honestly never occurs to me to talk about how I'm feeling. So I didn't deal with them at all until the pressure built and I popped.

The thing is, as I saw with my wife, living on eggshells for fear of the next time (and there will always be a next time until he does something about it) will likely cause you to put up a wall until you will no longer feel for him or care about him in any way. You will probably get to where you say 'you love him but are not in love with him' because of the emotional distance his explosive anger is forcing you into.

Assuming there is not a more serious issue at stake and just immaturity, he has likely become addicted to the anger and the release cycle. I know I was. It's not something you can easily break and, in my case, I HAD to blow my stack like that because I had no other tools in the toolbox. It was the only way for me to feel some relief because the pain I was feeling was so great. But like most fixes, it only made me feel better for a short time, and only made my marriage worse.

The good news is that there are solutions and ways to deal with it for him if he is capable and motivated. I finally started to get very concerned about what I was doing because I felt like the way I was acting wasn't the 'real me'...yet, unfortunately, I had to admit that was who I had become and only I could change it.

I began going to IC myself in addition to MC with wife. I found through just talking it out with my C that I could start to see patterns in my life, her life, our marriage, and the broken way we did things that put me in the 'danger zone'. I finally was able to deal with the small things without any help. When big things would come up with her, I'd go see the IC about it and simply talk it out. Again, being an introvert and somewhat private person anyway, that didn't come naturally to me and I had to learn, at 43 years old, that it was necessary.

So I still get angry as all people do from time to time. Luckily for me and those around me, I have learned to deal with it constructively and haven't had any angry outbursts in years. So it is possible to overcome. But it takes a long time and serious commitment, and the proof is in the pudding. The only way to know for sure that it's truly safe is to watch from a distance for a good long while.

I was totally alone when I did it. W still lived at home but had totally emotionally disengaged from me years earlier. If you still desire closeness with him, I would talk to a counselor who specializes in helping males with this problem (there are those out there) how you can show him compassion and support from a distance to provide him with some concrete hope (assuming he wants it and is open to it) while not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He should have to do the work, and you should be able to see evidence of it over a significant period of time. And if he has the right attitude, he will be repentant for his previous behavior and will be happy to do that for you.

[Zues126]

I don't subscribe to the belief that people need to become perfect to be in an R. That's what life is for- growth. I intend to follow your steps someday tl2. I just don't believe STBX should've destroyed our family because I hadn't gotten that far yet.

[tl2]

I'm not disagreeing with you here, zues. But when you say "because I hadn't gotten that far yet". That YET is the key.

I actually think physical separation when there is an intense angry outburst, even if it is the first one, is often warranted because it is a sliding scale, a continuum, and just like any addiction, the more it's done, the more it's likely to be done again, and the more likely the intensity will increase over time.

We have to look at it from the perspective of the recipient. I am a big muscular guy, former athlete (not pro like you) but big and strong. My wife is a cute little 5'1" little lady. All I saw was me expressing my hurt at what she did to me, and her trying to ignore me for doing it. What she saw was a much bigger, stronger man acting in a manner she perceived as intimidating and threatening.

The way I see it, as the bigger, stronger person as well as being the man, I should be using everything in my toolbox to create a soft, loving space for her where she feels protected and loved. And I have to do that even if she doesn't want to be in it right now.

[SunnyB]

Zues, two points here. One, there's a vast gulf between perfect and screaming and throwing things for two hours. Not throwing the remote. Throwing things and screaming for two hours, while your kid is listening to it all. No one is saying that her Girl's H needs to be perfect for her to reconcile with him, but the second time my kid is cowering in terror, I'd make sure there was no opportunity for a third. Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be damaging.

Second, Zues, you've come a long way, you've worked on you. And that was my point to Girl, that, yes, she needs to work on her, but her H needs to make some changes, too. And so far there's been no indication that he even recognizes that, much less is willing to do it.

Sometimes you are so black and white, Zues. Why does it have to be perfect or nothing? My M wasn't perfect, obviously. I would have stayed anyway. Sometimes the abuse threads make me extremely uncomfortable because they hit a little too close to home. I would have stayed anyway. He cheated on me. I would have stayed anyway. But when my kid is cowering behind a door, terrified, for the second time, that's a line that's been crossed for me. Everyone has a line, Zues, and it's usually substantially short of perfection.

[Zues126]

Zues, two points here. One, there's a vast gulf between perfect and screaming and throwing things for two hours. Not throwing the remote. Throwing things and screaming for two hours, while your kid is listening to it all. No one is saying that her Girl's H needs to be perfect for her to reconcile with him, but the second time my kid is cowering in terror, I'd make sure there was no opportunity for a third. Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be damaging.

Second, Zues, you've come a long way, you've worked on you. And that was my point to Girl, that, yes, she needs to work on her, but her H needs to make some changes, too. And so far there's been no indication that he even recognizes that, much less is willing to do it.

Sometimes you are so black and white, Zues. Why does it have to be perfect or nothing? My M wasn't perfect, obviously. I would have stayed anyway. Sometimes the abuse threads make me extremely uncomfortable because they hit a little too close to home. I would have stayed anyway. He cheated on me. I would have stayed anyway. But when my kid is cowering behind a door, terrified, for the second time, that's a line that's been crossed for me. Everyone has a line, Zues, and it's usually substantially short of perfection.

Very good points Sunny. I appreciate you elaborating. And also for recognizing that I have been doing what I can to grow a bit. I know I'm not the same person I was in the M.

And you're right. Two hours is a long time. If I exploded it was more like two minutes. That is a big difference. Not that two minutes is admirable.

I think I just get fatigued because my underlying belief is this: There isn't a M in this country that both parties couldn't, if they chose, make an iron clad case to their family and friends that their spouse was a monster and they had to file D for their self preservation. In the old days this was physical abuse only. Then alcoholism. Then emotional abuse. Then neglect. Lack of intimacy. Growing different directions. Irreconcilable differences. And on in on.

The way I see it is this- yes, in a marriage you will be hurt, neglected, abused, trodden on at times, your personal freedoms will be compromised, and you will go through stuff that no one 'should' have to. But that's part of being M. As are some wonderful times and a life long partnership in which you trust each other to stay through those times and grow and change and evolve. The notion that through personal growth there's a way to attain the fruits of a M without the strife, and that no one should put up with any pain...well, I don't agree.

It threatens me personally because I don't think I'll ever meet anyone's standards as it seems everyone these days subscribes to this attitude. And I feel the pain of the countless millions watching their families be destroyed by this outlook while still subscribing to it themselves and not realizing it.

Again, I see the gap between 'not putting up with any pain' vs. 'not putting up with abuse'. But if I seem black and white it may be because it all looks odd to me. I wouldn't leave a M unless I truly felt threatened, like my spouse was going to poison me or something. Short of that I would grit my teeth and deal with it. Maybe in 5-10 years it would be different. If not I would have the peace of mind that I did what I feel is the right thing. Because I believe that M isn't about the life that it gets YOU, but the opportunity to love and serve your spouse the way you love God. That's what God asked from us, and in the 'marriage expectations' series (youtube) Andy explains this in great detail. I think he's spot on. And you know my M was bad- 6 months of not talking at a time, years of no ML, deep pain, etc.

So this is my way of explaining why I'm so black and white. To me you don't leave a M no matter what. Everyone debating on the shades of grey on when it's appropriate to walk is confusing to me because it truly is black and white.

But maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe it's good that people walk from M's because it forces us to grow. Maybe a series of 5-10 year relationships and broken families if it triggers growth is better than a life long partnership with borderline abuse. Maybe I've got my own feelings of insufficiency that trigger fear of abandonment, and I am just too personally threatened by talk of leaving anyone ever. Maybe I'm just super expansive and crazy and can't see the world like others. I don't know. At the end of the day though I can challenge my thinking and try to learn and grow. The notion of unconditional marriage is a hard one for me to let go of though.

Thanks for talking SB. Updates on my thread later, hope to catch up with you soon

PS- why do I have to either be black and white or NOT black and white? Can't I be just a little black and white? Why does being black and white or not have to be such a black and white topic...(and the headache starts...it's not easy being zues)