Slow and steady .. Only way to get through the fog

[CaliGuy]

You always touch on the .. not so easy topics… so allow me to open up and vent a bit:



The one thing that seems to be a stumbling block for you both is the sex. I understand that. Just calling it out in the open. Why? Because one thing that "helps" customers be closer is the physical intimacy. It's a follow on to the emotional and spiritual intimacy. Like icing on the cake. But like all things, it has to be in time and you both have to ready. Just something to keep in mind that may contribute to her thinking you don't fully accept her yet.

AJ .. yeah that at the moment is the one ‘obstacle’ if you will that has been an issue. As I have shared here, its also a source of some hurt/pain for me .. something I have struggled with in all this. We have some roadblocks in the way… The STD, the A, not feeling safe in the relationship, issues from the old M , over this weekend we touched on them a bit … had a mini-breakthrough in a way … but more than that we are at least talking about it.


One of the things that this MLC crisis opened up was a 20+ year old secret W kept .. when we were dating I went out on my 2nd deployment to the Gulf War, during that time I received the “Dear John” letter and honestly had no intentions of staying around when I got out. When I returned from the war W had reached out at the time and wanted to talk .. have dinner .. who knows .. long story short I stopped my plans of leaving the state and pursuing a career and stayed here. A choice I had looked back at as a pivotal moment in my life as we later married. When W had her crisis and contracted the STD … she expressed she could have contracted it from someone she slept with during that time, someone she was seeing after she had broken things off with me … up to that point I had lived my entire life thinking we were each others first and only … had no idea she was intimate with someone else, W had not ever told me … and as she feared I most likely would have moved out of state had I known. I understand why she would not tell me, but that betrayal added to the more recent A has been a tough one to process. We discussed sex, and agreed its not the A … its our issues , she admitted she is still holding on to the past, she does not know how to forgive me for a collection of little things that filled her up with resentment. I was calm .. but firm .. telling her I have to forgive her for things she has done just as she does .. at some point we either take that leap and CHOOSE to start forgiving because carrying this weight along with us its going to sabotage the “New M”

I admire the path you've taken, Cali. A hard road to be sure. But I think you've done it with style and grace to date and making great progress. I like the balance you seem to have in your posts - shows a lot about where you are and where your W is. She is trying very hard and it's a bumpy road to be sure. Unchartered in her family by the sound of it.



Don't let up! You're getting to the best parts..

Peace,

AJ

Thank you AJ, I would never have made it to this point without the help of all you wonderful people here .. I know she is trying .. I see it and acknowledge it. With that I also feel she is sorting things out .. like you said .. picking up all that broken shattered parts of her, and trying to piece them together with the new parts of her .. almost like one broke a tea-cup and a platter and somehow they must fit the pieces they can and make one singular piece. She is trying to work on the M, but it’s the self work she must do first before she really has much to give to the M … something she has recently voiced to me and I agree .. so the M is in this weird limbo, its not the priority but it does get some attention here and there as she pieces herself together if that makes any sense.

[CaliGuy]

Cali



We seem to be on a similar path although you are farther down the road. Sotto recommended that I read your update...great advice from her. I struggle with all of the same issues. My W needs space...before her A and now even more. But, like you, I read into a lot of what is happening. One day things are great, she is intimate and affection. The next day, she seems distant. Still friendly but like a cloud is over her. If the A had not happened, none of this would be an issue. As many have stated, in a lot of happy marriages the H and W spend time alone doing their own thing. Frankly, it makes their time together more interesting.

Shodan … I have followed your sitch a bit but have not posted much as I typically agreed with the advice you were being given, I have some time today and will revisit it and see if I can spot anything that might be useful to you now.

But due to the A, like you, I am always wondering. Is she quiet b/c the OM called her? Is she quiet b/c she is rethinking about us? I know I should not read into these situations and should just live my life. Piecing is so much harder than after BD. People were right and I just laughed at them. I am not laughing now.



I will stay close to your thread and see what I can do to help in anyway. Please feel to do the same with mine (in extramarital affairs).

Just to set the record straight. I am not really struggling with the “What if OM called her/or she contacted OM” type thoughts … honestly if that were the case I would have no problem with cutting the rope and filing for D, and moving on .. W knows this would be the ultimate deal breaker as we have discussed this prior to any attempt to work on our M. It was part of the non-negotiable … continuing that I also did not really ask for a full transparency nor have her send a NC letter … logically if she wanted to continue with OM it’s a matter of just going deeper underground .. so I adopted the philosophy of .. “Why should I waste energy on that .. I have better things to do with my time and energy”



What I do struggle with admittedly is the damage cause by the A, the betrayal, the lies and deceit that happened. Those are things I am looking to rebuild but as I posted above … things that will have to be addressed slowly and in their own time as W is still piecing herself back together from her crisis.

[AJM]

Hey Cali. You do realize that these things didn't happen overnight and won't be fixed/healed overnight, right? I mean, by now you know that.

In many ways, it really and truly is a new relationship you two are building. One based on truth and trust. That takes time, amigo. No way around that.

The STD, the A, not feeling safe in the relationship, issues from the old M , over this weekend we touched on them a bit … had a mini-breakthrough in a way … but more than that we are at least talking about it.

Not sure I'd qualify those as roadblocks per se. More like tests to overcome

But I hear you and I get it. I think you are well grounded, Cali. You have a perspective that few have the patience to get to when tested. Many would have run and started over long before now. You didn't. I think that speaks volumes regardless how things turn out in the family section of life.

I think you can also say that your W has kind of hit a point in her life where she has to admit that what she thought and was doing isn't working. Seems that may take time to work through. To do that and try to build a marriage is no easy feat. I suspect your assessment is spot on for all three of you. I think your view is that detached at this point, that you can see things you couldn't before. There may be more, but I think you have your finger on the pulse.

She's a lucky lady that you are still here at this point and have that kind of integrity.

But you know all that. Just wanted to give you props for the areas going well

Don't let up though. I know there's more for you to do to really see what happens and where things end up.

AJ

[CaliGuy]

Hello all



Wanted to continue at least an update once a week, mostly for my own purposes … but after a long week of reading the forum I realized once people do get to this area there is not much around to pull from … I realize partly its due to the various purges that happen … but partly because in a way I see how one must detach and not allow themselves to relive the pain which happens post after post here, I read a few and sometimes there is a flashback of “Oh yeah I recall how hard and painful that was” and I think at times it can keep a person stuck … so in a way I have DB’d the DB forum if that makes any sense.



The past week I came across a thread … LIBT I think it was .. anyways it was a successful DB, they got back together then about 6-7 months later the LBH became the WAH .. filed for D … all that … then much later came back and they decided to work on the M. Seems she was not ‘all in’ and he finally had enough, met someone new and decided to drop the rope, seems like as we have read here that was what it took for his WAW to wake up and really focus on the M. It made me realize that this ‘piecing’ business was not how I painted it in my head … not how I imagined it would be and thankfully I have been working on how to appreciate this abstract painting rather than to criticize it. Over the last few weeks I have felt calm, more patient … I have also gone back to the DB fundamentals in a way … ZERO expectations, No Pursuing, I have even cranked up my GALs as of late … Still playing ball on Thursdays, but I also have posted some goals on my board in my office (All code BTW) … I had gained 20 of the 25 DB lbs back so I am cutting carbs and watching what I stick in my pie hole and started running after work. I also am watching my $$ like a hawk wanting to get things paid off as soon as I can. I have made myself a challenge .. a 60 gag order.. no OM, M, R, sex talks from me … not that I was Chatty-Kathy about these things I am just focused on NOT going there and giving W some room to breathe and continue through the shake-n-bake.



As far as W goes, she is all over the place it seems. A complete internal struggle between wanting to be independent and wanting her family close and there for her. Absolutely reminds me of a teenage girl in a dress shop with all those prom dresses to try on … then its about which shoes .. handbags .. should my hair be up .. or down. I just stay my course, remain the rock and do my thing. She will open up and talk to me at times .. then seems to really need her space and I will grab S and do something fun. Not the M I want … but I also cannot have that till W becomes whoever it is she will become. I notice she seems eager to volunteer for ANYTHING new … though does not seem to follow through on anything. She sat me down and we had a discussion about S, more about how he gives her some attitude on things she asks him to do, how its concerning her … I STFU and listened for the most part but when I did speak she was ultra-defensive so I cut it short and let her vent some more, ended it with a generic “We will have to work at this and help S along”. Truth is S does not trust W nor does he feel safe like he does with me, W seems to see it and is having issues with this, again .. things will take time to heal.



Over the weekend we had the Fall Festival, brought back memories for me as last year she introduced me as her husband and I found that odd as at that time she hated me and was with OM and had the happily ever after in her eyes. This year, again she introduced me as her husband and told her PTG lady friends that I pulled “Bouncy Slide House” duty for 2 hours … was funny as one woman said “You sir are one fine good man” I shared how W actually signed me up and I did in fact NOT volunteer for “Hell House 2015” she then looked at W and then at me and said .. “Well she is …” I cut her off .. and I filled in “A fine woman and I am blessed” and off I walked. I had a blast with the kids for those 2 hours then enjoyed the rest of the festival with S, we had chili dogs and root beer floats … W always sensitive to the sun was toast, we called it early and got her home where she was out for the rest of the weekend as I took care of her, the groceries and cleaned the entire house thoroughly.



This is one thing I wanted to touch on … MY changes. I was not always a tidy person, this was a good source of friction in our M. I was just not brought up that way whereas my W during our marriage homework shared her weekend memories was her father vacuuming early in the morning. I made it a habit to do this first thing Saturday morning for the past 6 weeks or so, amazing … seems to really set the tone for the weekend and W is much more at ease. I have paired this up with my changes .. making the bed, doing the dishes, cleaning up in the morning .. deep cleaning on the weekend. For a couple weeks I caught myself reverting back to my old ways .. keeping score, If I do THIS I should get THAT .. but I checked myself and that hurt little boy, I do these things with no expectations now, and honestly I just feel better about myself after its all done with. I have football on TV, do my thing around the house … W used to HATE the fact I would watch the games but now has given me a hard time as my teams have not been playing very well (I blame my new traditions on this … us sports fans are very superstitious) .



So that’s about where things are at … the push pull game is still there and I struggle with how to break it but I think my current approach will help, I am no longer a kayak in the rapids but more like a canoe on a smooth lake, steady and not thinking about it all as much .. takin things as they come .. continue to paddle and reminding myself to look around and enjoy the view now and then.

[Fogg]

“Oh yeah I recall how hard and painful that was” and I think at times it can keep a person stuck … so in a way I have DB’d the DB forum if that makes any sense.

Makes perfect sense and I think we all do this at some point. For me I see certain threads that are similar to how attached and codependent I was. I try to help but I know how difficult it's really going to be for them to cut that attachment out of their life and as I'm still working on it 10 months later so it's still tender to me also. In those similiar threads where they got together in high school and no other serious relationships I think it would almost be easier to skin ourselves alive with a butter knife while swimming in the ocean than break that attachment.

The opposite side is reading a thread such as yours that's so far ahead and see those piecing difficulties and it really makes you understand why so many of these situations don't work out. Just like the LBS you were talking about that left later on, we have this small chance the WAS will come back but we don't realize that's only 1/2 the equatiom for it really working out long term. Still, hope is there and alive but seeing it until the end isn't for the faint of heart. Admire you for staying the course.

[CaliGuy]

Happy Monday everyone.



Hope this finds you all well. Things have been a bit ‘off’ lately, I would not say the W and I are ‘fighting’ but there has been some tension as it seems she continues to sort things out. As for me, I have been continuing on my goals, adding a few along the way. I think for now the “Piecing” is on hold … W has told me a couple times over the course of this past week that while she feels there were some good things about Retrouvaille … there are other things she just does not think work … this is mainly the ‘homework’ which is basically 2 10 minutes sessions … something we have lost steam and I have not brought up after several attempts I figure she is sorting out herself and no sense trying to work on the M single handedly.

Last night we talked … was calm .. but she mentioned a few things that I know I have read here and elsewhere. “You deserve better “I’m no good” “I am just not feeling anything” type stuff. She has told me she does not know how to love as she never witnessed it in her childhood, shared she has only seen her parents kiss twice in her entire life. We have had a couple discussions about how maybe it was to soon for me to move in (I agree with this … was just bad timing honestly with the lease coming up and the fact she really at the time seemed like she needed to know I was not gone … as I was very close to this) We touched on how I do not feel comfortable there .. its not home, its not to me anyways… I have less anxiety about the place and stopped referring to it as the OM-lovenest in my head… but its not Home, I have about 3-4’ closet space and 3 drawers in the dresser … along with having my culinary stuff somewhat there. During these talks I have STFU for the most part … validated.

She seemed pretty depressed last night, telling me she did not want to hurt me, I deserved better, she cheated on me, hurt me, has been working hard on the R with S but she failed me miserably as a W. For the most part I listened … there were times I did get frustrated thinking how I was OK with things and ready to move on and she sucked me back in and here I am 7 months later thinking about where I am going to live. I did not voice this but its been there like an elephant in the room. She mentioned last night she is still holding back as she is not sure if I am the person she is supposed to spend the rest of her life with … how sexually she can not get past the wall to open up .. how I deserve to be satisfied ‘with someone’ type talk.

After one of these episodes the next morning she is typically happier and I will get a hug and good morning type greeting like nothing ever happened. I have been keeping to myself for the most part …. Realizing she is still baking, processing, and figuring things out … last week she said in one breathe she wishes she could run away and fix herself and come back, then the next minute she talks about how I am her rock and she is terrified that I will leave her. I figured out quickly we can not work on the M while she is working on herself … but she is not seeing an IC, she is listening to podcasts constantly … so it feels like she is stuck a bit. She admitted last week she has a lot of issues, but she runs from them … the current retreat for her seems to be the new computer along with the photography software, this is her life ambition .. which has been off and on over the past several years.

Some things of interest … last week after one of the fall-outs … a spew session of hers that I simply weathered for a bit then told her I had enough/ would not be talked to-treated that way …. She went out the next day and bought these little ice-cream bars that we used to enjoy while we were dating .. I am talking 20 years ago. She also has mentioned her pursuit of the photography thing has been fueled by her grandmother (She has been bed ridden for a few years) …. I think BIL in prison and his “Live life to the fullest” signatures on his letter is also adding to this. She also seems to have cut ties with a ‘friend’ who was made during the crisis .. I have read this happens often.

Whatever is going on , feels like she wants me there but doesn’t, there is definitely some intimacy issues .. but even more .. the daily texting is way down along with the calls, even her grabbing my hand and the ILY’s seem to have tapered off … possibly she is crawling back in the tunnel a bit I am not sure. … I have taken S on the weekends doing things with him while she goes off on her photo-journeys/classes/whatnots …. Could be an OM but I really do not think so nor do I think about it till I write these posts .. seems more about her still running a bit from the issues, or maybe she is addressing them internally .. no idea MINDREADING at best on my part. I am not sure what to do … which direction to take but just continue doing what I am doing and being as patient as I can till she comes out of this.



As for me, I realize my PMA is not 100% nor even 85% most the time .. I try but certain things have me thinking, do I really want this .. where does that leave me, and S in all this .. can I really accept W post MLC and all she brings with it .. there is definitely some serious selfishness still, along with the past resentments she holds and is always quick to bring up when she needs ammo …. Though I am not allowed to use the same engagement tactics … nor will I , I have grown from that .. that was old Cali. I do however see how we drifted apart, and I am not sure how to stop this from happening again .. seems I learned my lesson and have grown, she has not had that chance yet.



Ok .. rant over.

[mleigh4]

Ugh Cali,

Piecing sounds so hard. I hope for it, but am terrified of it at the same time.

I am no expert, but I wonder if at times a MLCer senses you are ready to be done. So, they realize they really don't want to lose you, they can't ignore the pull and connection of their spouse that is buried beneath all the crap, although they may not really be ready to work on the R as they are still in the trenches working on themselves. They just can't lose you in the meantime.

IDK, It seems to be a recurring situation. I can't imagine the internal struggle going on, for BOTH of you. You have come this far Cali.....I support you either way and always have an ear to listen to a rant.

I continue to pray for you, hang in there.

[Sotto]

Hi Cali, I'm sorry things are tough right now. I have read so many times how difficult piecing is. As Mleigh says - part of me also longs for it - but equally it is a mountain to climb.

When you are DBing, you are truly master/mistress of your own destiny. And once you have the techniques under your belt - off you go. Yes, there is pain and loss, but you are also doing new stuff and meeting new people.

In piecing, you are opening back up to your spouse, and learning how to rub along together in a new way which isn't easy. Plus, from what you post, your W is still processing things and her own issues don't yet sound resolved. I just wonder whether some more support might be of benefit in your sitch? Did you guys consider seeing an MC together....or did your W consider seeing an IC at all?

Hopefully someone with more wisdom than I can offer will stop by too Cali. But in the meantime, here's a big hug from across the pond ((((((((((Cali))))))))))

[CaliGuy]

M & Sotto .... Thanks

Yeah it's tough but in the same breathe is rather be here with atleast a chance than where I was this time last year to be honest

Last night things were a bit better, I've focused more on my PMA ... All was good till I misunderstood W and her hand symbols... She was using some U.S. Navy seal signal to get me to have S drink his smoothie, I misunderstood and thought I was supposed to .... Anyways she blew up. I told her firmly not to treat me like that, that it was not a big deal and if she wants to communicate she needs to speak to me as I can't read minds nor her hand symbols. This set her spewing and along with it she went for the buttons... One of which I have not removed ... She called me by my fathers name.
My father was viewed by many ... As well as my wife to be a very scary mean/angry man... This was a misconception ... Throughout or marriage my wife rarely really had ever interacted with him, he tried to smooth things with her but she had cast him out of that circle and there was not much he could do. In 2012 he passed of cancer ... Might have been one of the triggers for Ws MLC ... Not certain.
Anyways she knows that button is still hard wired in, it was almost like a test ... I got really calm and told her to stop, she pressed .. I again more firmly told her THAT is not my name, infect it belongs to my father who is deceased, the fact you resort to that to try and hurt me simply shows your character not mine... I left and walked the dog
Normally I would not have found that calm, that would have sent me into a tyrade but the past week or so just felt more like her testing me ... Not consciously but like she is figuring out a lot of things

So things settled that night and little was said, this morning the dog wanted out earlier than normal ... My job... W asked me to take him out, as I did the walk I thought about the sitch, and how normally I would go in, start getting myself and S ready for the day and stay clear of W. Well somehow I recalled a blip out of DB to do something different .... Then thought ... Wait that would be pursuing, then thought... No I'm past that phase. I came in.... W was in bed watching a show on her phone ... I crawled in bed and came in behind her, rather than rejecting me ... She turned and hugged me, stroked my face. We talked a bit.
The past few days she has been irritable because she had an STD outbreak that was triggered by those ice cream bars I mentioned, it all made sense ... I couldn't figure out what was going on, was it OM, depression, MLC... What. The flare up is a reminder of what she did, and she told me she gets upset about it, angry... Depressed... Ashamed... So I just hugged her and then made a joke about last night ... Woke up S and got going about my day... Thankful I opted for a 180 rather than to leave her alone and make her feel more isolated than she already was feeling

[claire7]

Wow Cali guy. That is such a great example of how one person CAN change the dynamic, and it also shows how far you've come that you are willing to be brave and vulnerable enough to turn towards her. Really inspiring.