H's e-mail that he used to communicate with OW is now completely empty (I saw what was there earlier). He acted as if he didn't remember the password, but I got suspicious because it was too empty - there would normally be some subscription e-mails in there.
He is not on FB at all, and is vocal about his contempt for it (that's how OW contacted him). He unfriended OW on my request. OW is posting on her own page all the time, but for business purposes mostly.
I landed on the thought that I can never control completely what he does, and I'd drive myself crazy chasing that rat through the maze. I'm trying to balance indifference with not being gullible.
IMO, it is completely naturally to wonder and worry and snoop - we're trying to protect ourselves from being hurt again, and that's a basic survival instinct.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Yes, you are so right... there is no way to control everything they do... and if they really wanted to do something, they could. They wouldn't have to use their phones... I have had this thought before too- my H could be just using his work computer & work phone. He could be using his accounts on his cel phone but deleting everything before he comes home... and being really dutiful to not use it when he is home. There are all sorts of ways he could do it... i try to remember that when I am thinking about snooping and when I think about what I have or have not found. It is crazy making to try to catch them doing something.
At times I am really good with this... I can keep a straight head and resist snooping. Especially when he is leaving his phone out for me. I it almost like he is saying, "here is my phone- I've cleared it of anything I shouldn't be doing, you can snoop." Of course the flip side is - "I'm not doing anything, here is my phone for you to see." So who knows which one it really is... and there is really no way to know.
I guess the reason I occasionally to succumb to snooping is that thought that I might be able to catch him... he might slip up, & I'll find something. And you are right, we have been hurt really bad & are trying to minimize any future hurt. If we can discover it sooner rather than later, that will minimize the time we are made a fool of. (And for me, if he cheats again, I am done... he knows this & I am firm on this. I can take responsibility for my part in the relationship being what it was that allowed for someone else to step in... but now, there is no excuse, no reason that would make me stay.)
And speaking of succumbing... last night I looked at his fb search history again to see if he is keeping it cleared... 2 searches. One for a business and one for that girl from his work that messaged him while we were camping (not the OW). The one that he had talked to on the phone while we were on the outs (he said she was really sick and needed advice as her insurance hadn't kicked in... h is in a supervisory role and an RN) & the one that he had friended on fb before (but now they are not friends) & who I had seen him search for repeatedly when we were on the outs. I don't know if he has an obsession w/ her or what it is... she is very attractive. When we were camping he did tell me there was nothing there & she probably wouldn't contact him again. But why is he searching for her on fb? To look at her page?? I don't get it. And if I say something, he definitely will begin to clear his fb search history.
Well not going to spend too much time worrying about it for now. It is just one of those things to file in the back of my mind for future reference if I need it.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
What I've done when I see stuff, is document. I don't always do anything, but I take screen shots and save in a folder. I would be upset if I saw that search and knew that he had searched her numerous times before. And I would probably confront him about it.
I agree with you on something happening again - I've told H the same thing, once more and I'm done for good.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Yeah, it is concerning but I'm not particularly bothered by it right now.
However, I am a bit more concerned about this fb messenger... it seems this weekend when we were in the car & I was driving, he quickly looked at me & back at his phone & when I looked quickly at his phone, I saw the message image... I think it is the one you see when you have no messages from someone if you were to look them up & click on message. I am not positive b/c I have an iPhone & he has an android... so it is a little different. But combined with him quickly looking at me (something I noticed a few times when he was actually cheating) and then looking at that, it has me on alert. I haven't said anything & It isn't to the point of keeping me up at night (which when I really worry about something, it does keep me up nearly all night)... but another thing to file away for future reference if I need it. It could literally be nothing... he did leave his phone on the table when he went to the bathroom a few hours earlier when we were out to eat. How to arrange when to message one another while also leaving your phone out for your spouse to see seems like it would be so hard to manage. So this part has me questioning my suspicions.
But otherwise, things are carrying on over here. Yesterday I had a lot to do and we were both really busy around the house. Things felt a bit disconnected because of that & I thought we seemed a bit further apart. But I guess that is how life goes.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Dear Hope, and to an extent Painter (though I have not read your story so feel free to dismiss whatever you think is not applicable)
but I feel you are doing a dangerous thing, NOT in alignment with DB principles at their core. And it's so much self inflicted pain YOU CAN AVOID or at least lessen, without a word or act by your h.
Let's look at some of your own words below...
Originally Posted By: hopeOK
Yes, you are so right... there is no way to control everything they do... and if they really wanted to do something, they could. THIS^^^ IS SOMETHING YOU MUST ACCEPT at every level of your being, or you'll drive yourself nutty AND I strongly strongly believe you will help to create the very thing you most fear...the end of the marriage.
What do you KNOW for a fact?? Because only facts matter right now or you will create a self fulfilling prophecy. What You KNOW:
You have a husband who strayed outside the marriage AND THEN REGRETTED IT.
You have a h who SAYS he wants to stay married.
You have a h who for the most part, ACTS as if he wants to stay married.
That^^ is what you KNOW. The phrase "from this day forward" MUST start applying or you will keep on ruminating on the past, which gets you nowhere fast and keeps on eating at you inside...and pushes him away...
("did he EVER love me? Was it ALL a lie? Am I being lied to again??" ETC)
Where do those unanswerable questions get you? STUCK...
I wasted a year of my life asking "Why????" and I can't ever get that year back.
I placed myself into that he11, yet in reality there is no such thing as a "good" or satisfactory "answer". And you're harming your cause.
It's as if he could bring you roses and you'd secretly (or not so secretly) wonder if it's NOT a loving gesture but really just a guilt induced act,
thus negating any & all possible loving intention on his end (which will definitely decrease further attempts on his end),
OR it was a trick to fool you into believing he wants to stay married....which makes NO sense b/c if OR When he wants out of the marriage, YOU WILL KNOW.
They wouldn't have to use their phones... I have had this thought before too- my H could be just using his work computer & work phone. He could be using his accounts on his cel phone but deleting everything before he comes home... and being really dutiful to not use it when he is home. There are all sorts of ways he could do it... i try to remember that when I am thinking about snooping and when I think about what I have or have not found. It is crazy making to try to catch them doing something.
So Stop yourself. What are your GAL activities? The more you are DOING and the ways you are Growing, will go a long way towards becoming a woman only a fool would leave AND it will help you heal much faster and obsess a lot less.
At times I am really good with this... I can keep a straight head and resist snooping. Especially when he is leaving his phone out for me. I it almost like he is saying, "here is my phone- I've cleared it of anything I shouldn't be doing, you can snoop." Of course the flip side is - "I'm not doing anything, here is my phone for you to see." So who knows which one it really is... and there is really no way to know.
I guess the reason I occasionally to succumb to snooping is that thought that I might be able to catch him... he might slip up, & I'll find something. And you are right, we have been hurt really bad & are trying to minimize any future hurtt.
The problem(s) with that is that it's FALSE. You are NOT going to decrease pain by "catching him" and you are NOT minimizing the future hurts. That's my main point here.
The seeing things negatively so much, the constant desire to snoop and NOT trust or forgive even when you said you were doing just that, INCREASES the chance of future hurt.
If we can discover it sooner rather than later, that will minimize the time we are made a fool of. Do you ever wonder if you played a role in the affair before? I'm NOT blaming you but if you want to minimize the risks, (and don't we all??!) then
Wouldn't the best way to Decrease the chances of your h having an affair, simply be by You Being the Better Choice?
Become a woman only a fool would leave.
So if he cheats on you again and you've done your very best as a wife, then YOU are not the fool; he is.
-- Well not going to spend too much time worrying about it for now. It is just one of those things to file in the back of my mind for future reference if I need it.
If you mean "future reference for a need" to mean what? I mean, the negative thoughts and feelings sure are living rent free in your head and heart. Besides,
unless adultery is going to change a property settlement or custody in the event of a divorce, why is that information, actually relevant? And why invite this into your life?
Why not GAL and LIVE WELL, now and model for your children and yourself and your h,
what real forgiveness looks like? It's a PROCESS and it's not linear. It's a series of choices you must make. I think you can make it but you need to get out of your own way.
Make sense?
Good luck
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
In my case, adultery would very much change property settlements and many other aspects of a potential D. That would also be H's motivation for lying/pretending to work on the M while just having gone underground with OW.
Another concern for me is that H worked for many years in a profession where high-stakes deception was part of his job. It was for a good purpose at the time, but I am concerned about his abilities and how he has now used them against me. Sometimes I wonder if the thrill of the A was partly reliving the 'good old days'...
But like I said, I have found that I'll only drive myself crazy by thinking about it, so I don't - but I try to not be gullible, either.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
What would it mean to you if you were "gullible"? What Specifically bothers you about that?
Is it the idea of some public humiliation (which seems unlikely, given the desire for secrecy on his end) or the IDEA that he lied to you again? Why wouldn't that be HIS problem? How does it reflect poorly on YOU, to choose to trust the man you married?
Don't get me wrong, for some of us, an affair or 2nd affair, is IT. Done, no looking back, etc. It's just how some are wired. I get that^^.
I just don't understand all the energy spent on snooping to find it (have you read MWD's books' particular section on this topic? It's very useful )
I'm trying to get you to see that once you have become your TRUE "honest to God" best self, (& protected your legal interests)--and GAL< etc
then why not drop it, and or turn it over to God (or the universe, etc) ?
Why not then let the cards fall where they will
without occupying so much of your precious life and energy,? So much of that could go to your children or work or your own self growth etc.
I regret the energy I spent on wondering what my h was doing/thinking/planning/feeling, that could and should have gone to raising and comforting my daughters who were also in pain.
I wish I had done more for them then, but my own pain preoccupied me greatly. I often was not fully present for them. That is a year I gave away to darkness.
Besides, if you get to the "I'm seriously giving & being my best, for real" place in life, then it's not about you anymore, at all.
At that point, it's all on him and all of that is out of your control.
IMO, Letting go of what we cannot control (and never ever could) is among the most freeing gifts you can give yourself in life.
Trying to outguess or maneuver around his actions is not really how you want to live, is it?
I hope this make sense.
Again, good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25, I think you may have the impression that I spend a lot of my time snooping on H. That is not the case at all, and I thought I made that clear in my posts where I said (twice) that I have landed on the thought that this is not something I can control, because he can always just get another e-mail account, phone, etc. It is not something I consider a big issue in my life at this time.
However, feelings of distrust and doubt come up at times, and I expect them to for a while longer. You can't rebuild trust in just a few months, and I'm not expecting to. I was expressing empathy with HopeOK (and I apologize for this hijacking of her thread!) and told her what my experiences in that area have been.
I don't think that H lying to me reflects poorly on me in the least, but I obviously won't continue to work to repair a M if he's in a secret R with OW again. Wouldn't anyone want to know the truth instead of being lied to?
Originally, I found out about the A because H was sloppy with some documentation. Even then, I let it go until a letter came in the mail that I couldn't ignore. I then returned to the documentation and started researching. H only admitted to the A after I confronted him with the evidence and dates. Having this knowledge *greatly changed the dynamics of the situation in my favor*.
There are very respected MCs who support finding out all the facts you need to know what you're dealing with, whatever it takes to get it. It is a debated issue among some, but I think every person has to do what they are comfortable with.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I've been gone for awhile... I thought maybe a week but looks like longer!
Since I've been gone, things were carrying on pretty much the same. With me having passing feelings of worry but really working to push them aside.
Then last Tuesday I had a really hard day. It started fine but then the kids were especially trying that day and my inner struggle to find some sort of purpose/meaning/fulfillment in life got the better of me. By the afternoon I was down right depressed. H came home & noticed... we sat for awhile & talked. I told him (deep in my pity party) that I am just so tired & I really feel like I hate my life. I couldn't really articulate it all to him in the way it made sense in my head but he was caring in his demeanor, even if he didn't have much to say about what I said to him.
Then we talked again about his hurts... he really struggles with the name I called him (he has a lot of inadequacy & fear of failure issues from his past) when I was so angry at him for cheating. Many would say that he deserved it... and with me being so mad, it is expected that some hateful/angry things would spew out. But I think I really touched on some shame issues he has and he really has held on to this thinking that I spoke the truth only when really provoked (I don't name call... ever... except this time). The other issue of what I thought he did came up again too.
I slept horribly that night. Even though we were talking, it wasn't a resolved thing... I am beginning to think that all these talks about these hurts are just moving in that direction and will need to be worked through many many times before things feel better.
Then the next day I was searching for something to help me. I needed something to put me in a better frame of mind. And I found this Ted Talk by Brene Brown. Life changing.
I highly recommend it for anyone struggling with trusting & working on a marriage after an affair.
I went on to find a 13 video series of hers on youtube of a workshop she did & that has also been so meaningful. Lots of good info. I really wish my h would listen b/c I think it could help him too. But since watching this ted talk & the other videos on youtube of hers, I feel almost like a totally different person. I have a different perspective.
It isn't that I am out there majorly GAL as many in this board recommend... this is problematic for us with such a limited time to spend together- me going out in the evening is resorting to my old behaviors of finding happiness outside of the marriage & not giving the marriage/h any of my time/attention. So the things I do for myself need to happen during the day... in the mornings before the kids wake up when h leaves for work or at some other point in the day. I have struggled w/ this GAL thing b/c I have always felt it was putting me back to where I was when we fell apart... why he thought I was done w/ him & having an affair with someone else.
SO... while I am finding time for myself & putting energy into things I enjoy, I am not going out & having fun w/ friends when it would take away time spent at home w/ the family or with my h. I feel good about this.
We had another talk in bed the other night (tuesday night) & it was more about h's struggle with what I mentioned above. I really tried to show empathy (as Brene Brown would suggest where there are shame issues) but it is so hard when I am the one that caused that shame to heighten. So I need to read her books to figure that part out. But I think the important part is that he is talking. It is hard for him to talk & he is doing it.
So instead of feeling bad after that conversation as I have been, I was able to list all the things I am grateful for. Well at first I did have the feeling of " oh gosh... he is always going to feel all this pain that I caused him & feel like that is really how I feel... instead of seeing all the other evidence to the contrary". But then I quickly refocused as Brown would suggest & moved into gratitude. I was thankful he was talking about this. i was thankful for the opportunity to tell him what a great dad I really think he is. i was thankful that even though these were tough things to talk about & bad feeling abounded for him, we still ended holding each other & very close physically. My frame of mind was also different too... it was more of- "I should be here to help him through this b/c he is hurting" rather than "oh no is he going to cheat on me b/c of these bad feelings?"
I think the biggest thing that changed my perspective is when Brene Brown talked about being brave by being vulnerable. Trusting my h & not worrying about whether he is cheating is a very vulnerable place for me. But w/o vulnerability, you cannot really experience joy. And bad things happen. They do. But worrying about them & missing out on joy just makes it doubly bad.
Here are some of her quotes that resonated with me from some of her youtube videos. (I didn't start writing them down until 1/2 way through so I'll have to go back & listen again... I think it would be helpful to me to cement them in anyway).
When we lose our tolerance for vulnerability, joy become foreboding. (this is where things are going really good or you're having a really good time & it is dampened by the thoughts of what is going to ruin it, wondering when the other shoe will drop). Lots of time spent doing something (i.e. Facebook for me) w/o any enjoyment is numbing out. This is a way to avoid vulnerability.
We would rather be certain and miserable then uncertain & wholehearted. Holy cow... this has been me. Trying to find out what he is doing & needing to feel certain he is or is not cheating. Her definition of whole hearted is living life to the fullest, being healthy, loving, being happy, etc.
I'm sure I'll post more again some time. I think she is extremely helpful.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
