The name I have chosen to title this thread is "Sati-sampajanna".
Sati means mindfulness. Mindfulness focuses primarily on understanding what is, on what is going on, and learning how to be present for what is, learning how to be present for our experience, to understand the way things are.
Sampajanna means wisdom, or understanding, or clear comprehension, it has a lot to do with learning how we can respond to the way things are.
Sati-sampajanna means a clear understanding of reality appearing in the present moment.
In regards to my marriage, by the end of my second thread I hoped to have correct knowledge or clarity, Vidya. To some extent I feel I do have clarity and have achieved this goal.
In regards to my marriage, by the end of this thread I hope to have an understanding of reality appearing in the present moment and the wisdom of clear comprehension in action.
What a beautiful thread title and equally powerful intention. May the clarity and wisdom you seek in your marriage be apparent by the end of the this thread Mutatio!
Big hug,
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Thank you PP, I gave it some thought. George Harrison wrote a song with the line "If you don't know where you'really going, any road will take you there". I want to keep turning corners, keep moving forward, allow myself to reach my fullest potential.
I love the thread title! You are clearly moving in the right direction.
I keep thinking about how you greet your wife, and she just ignores you. I thought about what if it were my H, and he chose not to respond to my greeting. It would irritate me, and I would be tempted to say something snappy. Following DB protocol - I would still address it, because it's rude. I think I would say something like: "I'm just trying to be nice to you. When you ignore me, it feels like you're trying to communicate something to me without words. Would you like to tell me what you're trying to communicate, or would you prefer I just not speak to you at all?"
Give it some thought. But I would not tolerate it. It's rude.
Thank you Judy, your support buoys me. I agree it is rude behavior. I am tempted to say something to her but wonder if it is even worth it. If she doesn't want to talk to me I can't make her.
My plan is to be polite, model good behavior and respect her desire for distance between us. This way I comply with her wish for space between us and I can maintain good manners. If she chooses to be rude, that is her choice. I have chosen a different path.
It does hurt me and sadden me and I would love to talk to her about it but I guess the bottom line reason I don't call her on it is because I am afraid of losing her.
It does hurt me and sadden me and I would love to talk to her about it but I guess the bottom line reason I don't call her on it is because I am afraid of losing her.
Your fear is holding you back, my friend. It also means your detachment isn't as strong as it should be. It is not good for YOU to allow someone to disrespect you by acting in a rude manner. I, personally, would not tolerate it. She is telling you something every time she does it; she is saying "I do not respect you."
I'm not trying to push you where you are not ready to go, but I can tell you from my point of view as a woman, if my husband allowed me to treat him like that...I would view him as weak. Weak is not an attractive quality in a man. You do not have to be mean or aggressive...just don't be weak.
Passing by to support you my friend. You are doing great. I love the titles of your posts. You are heading in a great direction.
I agree with Judy, you need to address the rudeness with a loving approach, set your boundaries. You are a human being, and deserve to be respected. Love yourself, respect yourself, and care for yourself. After you address it, and it becomes clear that she prefer not to speak to her, then the decision is yours my friend. You can always continue to greet her, but not expect anything in return, this allows you to still be happy with yourself for doing what you want to do and feel right doing.
Much love and support my friend.
M: 34 W: 33 S: 7 S: 14 months BD: 6/2015 Separation: 6/2015 Back and Forth between Home and Moms
You are getting a lot of support and great advice.
I would like to explore some of the early posts we shared. It has taken a while for me to formulate my thoughts.
In essence we went for the obvious last time, I think we have some tricker stuff to explore.
Just a reminder!
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Mutatio,
This work is about you, that is the best thing you can do for you.
You described your R as being a play in four acts, you are now moving into act 5.
Your W may not see the R in the same way.
Let's see if I have this right
1. The loving phase 2. The abusive phase 3. The beat Mutatio up phase 4. The WW breakaway phase
You described these as clearly delineated in your description. I can't see it that way, phase 2 was when WW switched off, and stayed switched off, I think. MWD describes this clearly in her opening chapters of both DR and DB.
There are 4 layers of work to do each layer has its deficits and advantages. This is a wonderful opportunity to atone and rebuild.
Mutatio these layers can be useful to you to start to rebuild yourself, to help you detach and to unravel your own feelings and involvement.
To build love for yourself, so you become confident in yourself. To become.
peace
V
-------------------
Originally Posted By: mutatio
Vanilla - So here is a very tough question, which of course you can choose not to answer.
How does WW see the acts in the play?
The transition between the loving phase and the abusive phase was because of 2 new factors in the equation. The first was my new job. I worked for her father. I wanted to work there, made good money but my skill's did not complement the job. I struggled and at best provided a "C" grade performance. I was very hard on myself during that time. I wanted to prove my worth to my wife and my FIL. It was a night job, getting up at midnight and working till noon. I grew to hate the job because of the hours and my poor performance. I brought my disappointment home and was mean, grumpy and a bully.
The second factor was the beginning of our family with my children being born. I began to feel trapped in the job and my wife was spending less time with me because of the children. I became unhappy with the lack of attention from my wife. I knew the children needed her so I bottled it up and became mean and a bully. I did not help her in the day to day maintenance of the children because I was exhausted, 4-5 hours sleep a night. She says she raised the kids like a single parent. There are many small incidents that switched my wife off. It was the death of a thousand cuts. I was a weekend binge drinker during this time. I would consume a case of beer a weekend.
I quit drinking at the beginning of the beat Mutatio up phase. I sensed my wife pulling away. She was in a EA/PA. The EA was going strong for 2 months when they met. It was heavy petting and they were planning to meet and go all the way when they got caught. I felt guilty because of my 16 years of bad behavior and she because of the affair. She says now she was done with the marriage then. We should have gone to couples therapy then but did not. We rebuilt our relationship on our own and it was great for 3 years and the last 4 drifted apart slowly. I became codependent after the scare of losing her.
During the WW breakaway phase I felt her emotionally absent and pushed to get her back and was trying when she determined she was done with the marriage and me.
What did you do to take action after act 2?
I quit drinking (sober 7 years) and quit my job working for her father. Jumped back into my old career. I tried to be a better father and was, she says I am a good father now. I stopped being mean and a bully. Not perfect but 99%. I began cooking dinner every day.
What actions are you taking now? IC?
I go to IC once a week. I just completed a cognitive therapy 12 session therapy, on anger management while going to IC. I have joined a Buddhist Meditation Center, going twice a week. I will begin Meditation teacher training this fall as part of my GAL. I am taking a adult ed class in the fall on a subject I have great interest in, also GAL.
Vanilla or anyone else, I would appreciate any insights or questions you have have, thank you for your support. ------------------------------------------------------
Hi Vanilla, thank you for helping me on my journey. I could use your sage advice. Here's a little more backstory on chapters 2 & 3.
The last two years of chapter 2 are important. At the beginning of the last two years I found a new job and left my FIL's business. The business was doing poorly, the hours (nights) were really rough and I hated the job. My wife and I discussed it and we agreed to make the change. After working the new job my wife wanted me to take a more active roll in my children's lives. I behaved better but not good enough in hindsight. I worked around the house instead of taking the kids to the pool. I drank beer and worked in the garage. The truth is I asked the kids if they wanted to go to the pool and they didn't want to go. I now realize that between my bad behavior and not doing things with them there was not a deep relationship with them.
My wife told me later that after changing jobs she really hoped that I would change. In her eyes I did not. One year before the EA/PA I began to sense her pulling away. Reduced emotional and physical intimacy. The summer vacation before the beginning of the EA we had no sex. That fall I sensed her pulling away more and more. When I would come into the room she would immediately close her laptop or turn it in a way so I could not see what she was doing.
These behaviors worried me, I felt something was wrong. I knew that I my drinking was a problem. I wanted to be a better man for my wife and my family. Sensing my wife pulling away and and knowing my selfish behaviors were the cause was the mechanism. I had a moment of clarity and stopped drinking. One month later the EA/PA came to light.
I was shaken to my core. I truly believed I caused my wife's EA/PA with the years of bad behavior. I swore off the booze, meanness a__- nd bullying. I blamed these behaviors for all the problems we were having. It was easy to drop those habits by blaming them for my wife's actions.
I now realize that I did not do enough to repair the marriage. I will regret this mistake till the day I die. I love my wife and always will. The sad thing is that may not be enough. --------------------------------------------
Good morning Vanilla. Here is the chain of events I believe you are looking for. To set the stage the time period is the fall of 2008. I am beginning my third year at my new job. At this point I have been behaving better (by old me standards) but I still drink a case of beer each weekend. My wife has been on a geek discussion forum for about a year where she has many friends, one a male, living 25 miles away. During the summer of 2008 she seems a little more distant. She enjoys her online life and I am happy it gives her joy. I am a little jealous of the time she spends online but I don't discuss it because of my guilt from behavior in the past.
During September and October my wife is spending more and more time on laptop. She is in the room with me and the kids and is somewhat involved with us but she always has the laptop. In hindsight the online EA has already began. They, my wife and the male from 25 miles away have never met in person. Halloween 2008 is the day that the the EA becomes sexual. What they will do to each other, bad mouth their spouses, yada yada yada. It consumes more of my wife's time. She is secretive with the laptop and always has it close by.
In early November I begin to see my wife has really changed, more distant the ever. I realize something is really wrong but don't know what. I've be thinking for the last half of year that I should stop drinking because it only leads to problems between my wife and kids. Now with her pulling away I really consider it to be affecting my relationship. Also during this time I start to wonder if my wife is cheating, its just a hunch.
Now for the moment of truth, the tipping point, the flip of the switch, Thanksgiving 2008. I had a few beers at my wife's cousin house Thanksgiving day. It was a nice holiday for one and all and in the evening we are heading home. My daughters are in the backseat fighting nonstop about their territorial space and it gets ugly. My wife is dealing with it while I drive but is not succeeding at making it stop. I grow impatient and chime in. I say to my eldest daughter to stop being like bin laden. My wife becomes very angry with me and rips me a new orifice. She says she can't take it anymore and she is done. She repeats this to her self a few times. That night I decide to stop drinking although I do not tell my wife. Friday I do not drink. Saturday we have plans to see a band we like with a large group of friends we know. We all meet early for dinner and drinks. I decide to drink with my friends. I get pretty drunk. We all leave and walk over to the show, its a small theater venue. When the music begins my wife says she is going to stand down in front of the stage. I hang back because its to crowded. I am listening to the band in my drunken stupor and watch my wife talking with some guy (not Mr EA). It goes on for a couple songs and I realize I am losing her, that I have driven her away with my bad behavior and drinking. I get really sad at the state of my marriage and sit down for a while thinking about the situation and I decide to quit drinking. Eventually I go down and hangout with my wife. Sunday morning I tell my wife I'm going to stop drinking. I have not had a drink since that night almost 7 years ago.
On December 10th 2008, a rainy Wednesday, Mr. EA decides to drive to my wife's workplace. She meets him in the parking lot of her building and they sit in her car for over an hour. They talk, hold hands, kiss and grope. I was at work but for some reason I just knew something was wrong. They decide to meet again after the holidays and "do it". On December 21st, we get a phone call at 5 am from Mr. EA's wife. She tell's my wife its over and to back off. Later that day my wife comes clean and tells me it all.
Questions the paragraphs above did not answer-
Did you go to AA? No I don't need it. I never want to drink again. Every difficulty with my wife reminds me of that fact.
What did that change feel like for you? I was glad to removing such a terrible habit from my life, marriage and children.
How did WW react? My wife was glad that I chose to quit drinking. I suspect she had a wait and see attitude about my resolve because it part of my every weekend activities.
It was two weeks and you discovered EA, what happened in those two weeks between pivot point and EA discovery? Between the Sunday I quit drinking and my wife beginning the PA nothing unusual happened. I was completely sober and tried to be a nice, less selfish person.
I hope this answers the questions you have Vanilla. I would be happy to answer any more that may arise. I would love to hear your take on my situation. Be well
So, I want to explore phase 1. In that phase you stated that you gave up your desires to work for FIL I his business. You also implied there was a poor fit of skills.
I don't think the exact details are relevant but the principles are.
Why did you decide to work for FIL?
Having done that why did you continue when it was clearly damaging to you?
Where does the desire to submit to this come from?
Have you always 'fitted' or made 'best fit'.
Knowing there was a bad fit what did you do? Re skill? If not why not?
When did you break free of this and how did it happen?
Had you been bendy man before, twisting like a pretzel to fit in?
Is this still a factor in your life?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
